Around Baseball 2020

[King]

Groundballs find their way into gloves a lot. That's why a guy like Jake Westbrook can start almost 300 games in the big leagues with a K/9 under 5.

 

We'll see what happens with Zeuch, but you just don't see many starters putting up groundball rates over 60 in the minors. It's an overlooked and valuable skill, even moreso in the launch angle revolution. It's clear that the FO sees something in him. Atkins brings up his name all of the time.

 

Grant, Zoinks was unable to sustain GB rates over 60% as a starter at the upper levels of the minors. You should stop pointing to this, because it's misleading.

 

Also, I think it is obvious that major league hitters can square up his s***** sinker when minor league hitters can't. His MLB profile is the most valuable information we have. But sure, keep pointing to his groundball rates in Dunedin as to why he'll be good.

[Grant77]

Grant, Zoinks was unable to sustain GB rates over 60% as a starter at the upper levels of the minors. You should stop pointing to this, because it's misleading.

 

Also, I think it is obvious that major league hitters can square up his s***** sinker when minor league hitters can't. His MLB profile is the most valuable information we have. But sure, keep pointing to his groundball rates in Dunedin as to why he'll be good.

 

Nobody said that he would put up a 60% mark in the majors, so quit trying to mislead people. He put up about a 56% mark in the upper minors and 53% in an extremely small major league sample. He'll likely sit in that range, which would be firmly in the elite category for that particular stat.

[Spanky__99]

Nobody said that he would put up a 60% mark in the majors, so quit trying to mislead people. He put up about a 56% mark in the upper minors and 53% in an extremely small major league sample. He'll likely sit in that range, which would be firmly in the elite category for that particular stat.

 

Ughh... you fellas don't stop. I tried man.

[King]

Nobody said that he would put up a 60% mark in the majors, so quit trying to mislead people. He put up about a 56% mark in the upper minors and 53% in an extremely small major league sample. He'll likely sit in that range, which would be firmly in the elite category for that particular stat.

Please show me where I said that you said he would put up a 60% groundball rate in the majors. Again, please stop trying to mislead people.

[Grant77]

Please show me where I said that you said he would put up a 60% groundball rate in the majors. Again, please stop trying to mislead people.

 

You clearly insinuated this in your previous post. I used to think you were just trolling, but you're obviously just an incredibly stupid person.

[King]

You clearly insinuated this in your previous post. I used to think you were just trolling, but you're obviously just an incredibly stupid person.

Again, you're being misleading. I wasn't insinuating anything. I was pointing out you posting misleading stats, as per the usual. Apparently you need to jump to conclusions to make a point. Be gone, troll!

[Jays24]

Can free agency pick up already. Just skimmed through 2 pages of zoinks talk... fuk lol

[Grant77]

Again, you're being misleading. I wasn't insinuating anything. I was pointing out you posting misleading stats, as per the usual. Apparently you need to jump to conclusions to make a point. Be gone, troll!

 

Goodnight troll. I enjoyed you attempting to refute facts and statistics with hyperbole and word games. Your miserable failure was highly entertaining and serves as yet another of the dozens of examples of your incredible level of stupidity.

[G-Snarls]

Interesting read on Kris Bryant and the MLB service time manipulation teams do to emerging star players :

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/gabe-lacques/2020/12/01/kris-bryant-mlb-non-tender-cba-free-agency/6477533002/

Edited December 4, 2020 by G-Snarls

[Jimcanuck]

Goodnight troll. I enjoyed you attempting to refute facts and statistics with hyperbole and word games. Your miserable failure was highly entertaining and serves as yet another of the dozens of examples of your incredible level of stupidity.

 

Zoinks suxxxxxx

[G-Snarls]

Zoinks suxxxxxx

 

"Zoinks" sounds like something Robin would say in a voice bubble in a Batman 1980s comic book

[Laika]

Grant is right, sorry King.

 

TJ Zeuch probably does suck but he's worth keeping around as a depth SP while he still has options (unless he gets bumped off the roster by better players) and there is a chance that he ends up as a useful SP. I believe he has a better minor league ERA than many of Toronto's young SP depth (Thornton, Kay, Hatch, Waguespack). Minor league ERA is dumb to look at in almost every instance but maybe not when you are trying to evaluate a guy with a stupid/weird profile like Zeuch. He's completely outside the mold of current analytic trends and he's a weird player because it's probably SP or bust - hard to imagine him as a useful reliever - and in the current game backend SPs who chew up mediocre innings are not coveted.

 

The type of player who, if the team gets into SP injury trouble, could end up supplying ~15 not terrible starts in a season.

 

Grant's ceiling comps are generally too sexy but here is a more fitting one: https://www.fangraphs.com/players/aaron-cook/1571/stats?position=P

 

Toronto should have traded Zeuch for David Dahl!!! why the f*** did that not happen

[Brownie19]

Grant is right, sorry King.

 

TJ Zeuch probably does suck but he's worth keeping around as a depth SP while he still has options (unless he gets bumped off the roster by better players) and there is a chance that he ends up as a useful SP. I believe he has a better minor league ERA than many of Toronto's young SP depth (Thornton, Kay, Hatch, Waguespack). Minor league ERA is dumb to look at in almost every instance but maybe not when you are trying to evaluate a guy with a stupid/weird profile like Zeuch. He's completely outside the mold of current analytic trends and he's a weird player because it's probably SP or bust - hard to imagine him as a useful reliever - and in the current game backend SPs who chew up mediocre innings are not coveted.

 

The type of player who, if the team gets into SP injury trouble, could end up supplying ~15 not terrible starts in a season.

 

Grant's ceiling comps are generally too sexy but here is a more fitting one: https://www.fangraphs.com/players/aaron-cook/1571/stats?position=P

 

Toronto should have traded Zeuch for David Dahl!!! why the f*** did that not happen

 

I don't disagree with this and while there is some value in the guy who can provide that back end rotation depth...why wouldn't they send him to Driveline and see if they could transform him into a power arm?

[Laika]

I don't disagree with this and while there is some value in the guy who can provide that back end rotation depth...why wouldn't they send him to Driveline and see if they could transform him into a power arm?

 

Driveline's methods aren't all in a black box. Any individual player is able to do their weighted ball programs and aggressive velocity training, inside or outside of their actual program. Advanced teams are doing in-house pitch design already.

 

The think with Zeuch is that he probably isn't just some added velo or a spin efficiency tweak away from being a good traditional P prospect. I'm not sure it makes sense to train him in those typical methods. It might be like trying to get a cat to play flyball - the wrong species.

[connorp]

Driveline's methods aren't all in a black box. Any individual player is able to do their weighted ball programs and aggressive velocity training, inside or outside of their actual program. Advanced teams are doing in-house pitch design already.

 

The think with Zeuch is that he probably isn't just some added velo or a spin efficiency tweak away from being a good traditional P prospect. I'm not sure it makes sense to train him in those typical methods. It might be like trying to get a cat to play flyball - the wrong species.

 

Yeah it’s not like Driveline is a magical place. These concepts are mimicked all over the country starting from when good players are like 12 basically. Obviously intensity and sports science is different as you go up levels but the places good enough to be training pros are all over the country and likely incorporated in a teams training regimen as well

[Grant77]

Driveline's methods aren't all in a black box. Any individual player is able to do their weighted ball programs and aggressive velocity training, inside or outside of their actual program. Advanced teams are doing in-house pitch design already.

 

The think with Zeuch is that he probably isn't just some added velo or a spin efficiency tweak away from being a good traditional P prospect. I'm not sure it makes sense to train him in those typical methods. It might be like trying to get a cat to play flyball - the wrong species.

 

I think Zeuch would be better served working on his curveball, which has looked pretty good at times. He doesn't need to K guys at a high level to be effective, but a good out pitch would keep hitters off of his fastball. The 2 seam is excellent, but hitters sit on it.

 

I don't know if added velocity would do a lot for him either. We often see pitchers like Zeuch become more effective in later innings when they lose some velocity.

[Brownie19]

Yeah it’s not like Driveline is a magical place. These concepts are mimicked all over the country starting from when good players are like 12 basically. Obviously intensity and sports science is different as you go up levels but the places good enough to be training pros are all over the country and likely incorporated in a teams training regimen as well

 

Never said it was magical. This was all premised on Joe Gatto (not the guy from Impractical Jokers) going from a s***** AA pitcher who got released, to a flame throwing reliver (throwing 98+) and landing a guaranteed ML contract after reinventing himself at Driveline. If he's now transformed himself into a legit pitcher - don't you think the Angels are kicking themselves for not being able transform him while he was in their system?

 

Shouldn't teams be taking all their failed pitching prospects and putting them through a similar program, trying to develop impact relivers. I guess maybe we are and they've already tried this s*** with Zeuch and he just sucks.

[connorp]

Never said it was magical. This was all premised on Joe Gatto (not the guy from Impractical Jokers) going from a s***** AA pitcher who got released, to a flame throwing reliver (throwing 98+) and landing a guaranteed ML contract after reinventing himself at Driveline. If he's now transformed himself into a legit pitcher - don't you think the Angels are kicking themselves for not being able transform him while he was in their system?

 

Shouldn't teams be taking all their failed pitching prospects and putting them through a similar program, trying to develop impact relivers. I guess maybe we are and they've already tried this s*** with Zeuch and he just sucks.

 

Don’t know the circumstances of Gatto but even if programs are available to players doesn’t mean it’s required. See Vlad on this lol. You have to want to put in the extra work. Could’ve been washing out spurred that. I’m sure different people respond different to different programs as well. Some people may find success at Driveline and others may have more success somewhere else. I mean look at a guy like Jose Bautista. Were the Bluejays so much smarter than everyone else or was it just a time and a place where he decided he wanted to change his approach and found great success?

[Laika]

Never said it was magical. This was all premised on Joe Gatto (not the guy from Impractical Jokers) going from a s***** AA pitcher who got released, to a flame throwing reliver (throwing 98+) and landing a guaranteed ML contract after reinventing himself at Driveline. If he's now transformed himself into a legit pitcher - don't you think the Angels are kicking themselves for not being able transform him while he was in their system?

 

Shouldn't teams be taking all their failed pitching prospects and putting them through a similar program, trying to develop impact relivers. I guess maybe we are and they've already tried this s*** with Zeuch and he just sucks.

 

The Angels are a terrible org. Also, in a lot of instances the player is not willing to fully buy in to the overhaul until they have failed emphatically... lots of times these player transformations require an org change for this reason.

[L54]

Never said it was magical. This was all premised on Joe Gatto (not the guy from Impractical Jokers) going from a s***** AA pitcher who got released, to a flame throwing reliver (throwing 98+) and landing a guaranteed ML contract after reinventing himself at Driveline. If he's now transformed himself into a legit pitcher - don't you think the Angels are kicking themselves for not being able transform him while he was in their system?

 

Shouldn't teams be taking all their failed pitching prospects and putting them through a similar program, trying to develop impact relivers. I guess maybe we are and they've already tried this s*** with Zeuch and he just sucks.

 

Yes, I think they should be. There is zero downside for either the player or the org.

 

Very few will ultimately revitalize their careers, but if you are able to churn out one new decent reliever each year it would be worth it. I think the Reds will be interesting to watch over the next couple of years with Kyle Boddy as their pitching coordinator.

[glory]

 

It won't be long until Morosi links him to the Jays, so might as well post this here before that happens.

[Brownie19]

The Angels are a terrible org. Also, in a lot of instances the player is not willing to fully buy in to the overhaul until they have failed emphatically... lots of times these player transformations require an org change for this reason.

 

I get it. I'm just surprised teams aren't all over their failing prospects to try these more drastic changes more often. I get the player needs to buy into it - but it shouldn't be a tough sell.

 

"TJ Zeuch - it turns out your skill set is built for 2007. You're highly unlikely to have any major league career if we continue down the same path. We'd like you to throw 4 seamers and work on A, B, and C moving forward to create improved velocity and spin. We can't guarantee this will work, but we think it's worth trying if you want to carve out a ML career. You alternative is to ride the buses in the minors or for us to cut you"

[Laika]

I get it. I'm just surprised teams aren't all over their failing prospects to try these more drastic changes more often. I get the player needs to buy into it - but it shouldn't be a tough sell.

 

"TJ Zeuch - it turns out your skill set is built for 2007. You're highly unlikely to have any major league career if we continue down the same path. We'd like you to throw 4 seamers and work on A, B, and C moving forward to create improved velocity and spin. We can't guarantee this will work, but we think it's worth trying if you want to carve out a ML career. You alternative is to ride the buses in the minors or for us to cut you"

 

TJ Zeuch has a 3.52 MiLB ERA and threw a no-hitter in AAA last year. He has never failed in a traditional sense:

 

NCAA - 3.33 ERA

MiLB - 3.52 ERA

MLB - 3.71 ERA

 

Even if we assume TJ Zeuch is physically capable of becoming a completely different and better pitcher through modern training (not obvious to me) how do you get a player like that, who has never failed, to buy into it? Do you tell him his K/BB is fugly and Fangraphs thinks he's bad?

 

If you use a heavy-handed approach and make him change his pitching gender, what type of impression does that give to prospects thinking of signing with Toronto? Who wants to sign for an organization that will make you go through a wood-chipper at their whim?

[Brownie19]

TJ Zeuch has a 3.52 MiLB ERA and threw a no-hitter in AAA last year. He has never failed in a traditional sense:

 

NCAA - 3.33 ERA

MiLB - 3.52 ERA

MLB - 3.71 ERA

 

Even if we assume TJ Zeuch is physically capable of becoming a completely different and better pitcher through modern training (not obvious to me) how do you get a player like that, who has never failed, to buy into it? Do you tell him his K/BB is fugly and Fangraphs thinks he's bad?

 

If you use a heavy-handed approach and make him change his pitching gender, what type of impression does that give to prospects thinking of signing with Toronto? Who wants to sign for an organization that will make you go through a wood-chipper at their whim?

 

Fair enough. Zeuch was just a random example. Replace him with Player Y who's not having success in the upper minors or the ML level. I'd like to say that making every effort to make a pitcher the absolute most valuable they can be would be viewed as a plus when players are choosing who to sign with - but I am over simplifying how difficult it can be to change your mechanics like that. That probably explains why most are truly at the cross roads of their career before they try the dramatic change.

[Brownie19]

A vast majority of MLB teams don't have individual plans like that. At least this is what Kyle Boddy says on his podcasts. They will literally lie to players so that they can org fill successfully instead of being blunt and saying they have no shot unless they do X, Y, Z.

 

Also, you can't improve spin unless you put stuff on your hands. So in the case of Zeuch, specifically, his 4 seamer shows that it's not a high spin pitch and it also runs, because that's his arm slot. So it's very, very likely to just be a s*** 4 seamer.

 

The Jays are probably like whatever, just throw your sinker bud.

 

In the case of someone like SRF, who actually shows spin and velocity on the pitch, they might actually give a s***. His spin efficiency or slot actually improved this year, he had more carry than usual.

 

I'm certainly no expert, but I have to think there are ways to change the spin on your pitches (without using substances). The amount of effort, release point, arm angle, grip, etc. would all change it. Didn't Bauer shorten his arm motion to change the spin rates? or am I dumb?

 

Interesting to hear that feedback from Boddy (I'd never heard that). Is it just too difficult to create individual plans for players? It seems really inefficient to just have the same plan for everyone on the team and just hope the majority of them thrive. Is Boddy trying to change this in Cincy?

[Orgfiller]

I'm certainly no expert, but I have to think there are ways to change the spin on your pitches (without using substances). The amount of effort, release point, arm angle, grip, etc. would all change it. Didn't Bauer shorten his arm motion to change the spin rates? or am I dumb?

 

Interesting to hear that feedback from Boddy (I'd never heard that). Is it just too difficult to create individual plans for players? It seems really inefficient to just have the same plan for everyone on the team and just hope the majority of them thrive. Is Boddy trying to change this in Cincy?

 

Bauer himself has claimed in the past that it's not possible to drastically improve your spin rate without using foreign substances. So he was actively "cheating" this season knowing that every other pitcher does it and gets away with it which is why his spin on all of his pitches improved so dramatically. Probably daring the league to do something about it if they really cared that much. I believe changing your arm motion to a short-arm like he has has more to do with having more consistent mechanics and possibly allowing you to add some more velocity.

[jerb]

 

theScore MLB

@theScoreMLB

 

Report: LeMahieu's agent seeking 5-year, $100M deal for client https://thesco.re/3lHAltJ

[Deadpool]

 

theScore MLB

@theScoreMLB

 

Report: LeMahieu's agent seeking 5-year, $100M deal for client https://thesco.re/3lHAltJ

 

I'm skeptical that LeMahieu will be worth $20M at age 37, I don't blame the Yankees for balking at a 5 year deal.

[glory]

 

theScore MLB

@theScoreMLB

 

Report: LeMahieu's agent seeking 5-year, $100M deal for client https://thesco.re/3lHAltJ

 

My guess is he ends up getting something similar to Donaldson's deal last winter (4/92), maybe a little less. I doubt anyone is giving him 5 years.

[RobinThicc]

Asks for 5 to try and get 4.

 

I think 4/84 is what he gets from the Yankees