Around Baseball 2020

[L54]

f*** you, you racist. How dare you bring that up.

 

It's just a question to chew on.

[connorp]

Why is the NFL so much better in promoting football to minorities than baseball? I know the NBA is in another class but that’s due to a variety of financial reasons for a lot of involved people

 

Seems like just because blacks are more physically suited for football they wind up doing that. Then you get the “white guilt” people that are upset that they aren’t dominating baseball too since that’s how it is in basketball and football

[King]

Why doesn't anyone ever mention the disproportionate representation of African Americans in the NBA and NFL when talking about diversity and inclusion in sports?

 

What have the NFL and NBA done to grow the game within the white community?

 

Maybe sports are more closely correlated with culture and not race.

 

Why doesn't anyone ever think of... the white people!

[L54]

Why is the NFL so much better in promoting football to minorities than baseball? I know the NBA is in another class but that’s due to a variety of financial reasons for a lot of involved people

 

Seems like just because blacks are more physically suited for football they wind up doing that. Then you get the “white guilt” people that are upset that they aren’t dominating baseball too since that’s how it is in basketball and football

 

Basically, yup.

[Jimcanuck]

This is what Stroman said: "No amount of money honestly," when asked by a fan about the possibility. "Peace of mind is always priority."

 

How does what he said justify:

 

If you're not drinking the Black koolaid you're racist.

 

Stroman can suck my white dick.

[L54]

Why doesn't anyone ever think of... the white people!

 

When is enough black people in baseball enough?

 

Why is this seen as a problem in the MLB but not in other leagues? The MLB is consistently ~40% people of colour.

[metafour]

Has anyone stopped to consider that not every African American can be a professional athlete?

 

If that subset of the population is grossly overrepresented in the NBA and NFL (which they are), then that overrepresentation has to be pulled from somewhere. The MLB's 8% African American demographic is in fact actually much closer to America's overall African American demographic (~13%) than either of the other two major sports.

 

The real reason why the African American demographic in baseball more closely resembles the actual demographics of the country is simple: the requisitory athletic predispositions in baseball (ie: hand eye coordination for hitting and and the mechanics of throwing a baseball for pitching) are not things that African Americans have a genetic dominance over. They don't have superiority because baseball is so highly mechanical and the "gifts" required are not skewed so heavily in their favour, unlike in basketball or football wherein their height and lower-body explosiveness advantage gives them a massive advantage. As I'm sure everyone knows, being 6'4 with a 40" vertical doesn't really do anything in baseball. Both basketball and football are essentially governed by this height/size/explosiveness ratio which is more or less useless in baseball unless you can actually hit the ball.

 

The nature of baseball actually makes it much more genetically "fair" than the other two major American sports. That is why you can see elite East Asian players in the MLB, and zero of them in the NBA and NFL. NBA basketball is in fact hugely popular in China and even in Japan/Korea - the fact that they have virtually zero representation has nothing to do with lack of interest.

[Orgfiller]

Has anyone stopped to consider that not every African American can be a professional athlete?

 

If that subset of the population is grossly overrepresented in the NBA and NFL (which they are), then that overrepresentation has to be pulled from somewhere. The MLB's 8% African American demographic is in fact actually much closer to America's overall African American demographic (~13%) than either of the other two major sports.

 

The real reason why the African American demographic in baseball more closely resembles the actual demographics of the country is simple: the requisitory athletic predispositions in baseball (ie: hand eye coordination for hitting and and the mechanics of throwing a baseball for pitching) are not things that African Americans have a genetic dominance over. They don't have superiority because baseball is so highly mechanical and the "gifts" required are not skewed so heavily in their favour, unlike in basketball or football wherein their height and lower-body explosiveness advantage gives them a massive advantage. As I'm sure everyone knows, being 6'4 with a 40" vertical doesn't really do anything in baseball. Both basketball and football are essentially governed by this height/size/explosiveness ratio which is more or less useless in baseball unless you can actually hit the ball.

 

The nature of baseball actually makes it much more genetically "fair" than the other two major American sports. That is why you can see elite East Asian players in the MLB, and zero of them in the NBA and NFL. NBA basketball is in fact hugely popular in China and even in Japan/Korea - the fact that they have virtually zero representation has nothing to do with lack of interest.

 

This is an absurd argument because the MLB is filled with Afro Caribbeans that genetically are very similar if not practically identical to African Americans. It is almost entirely a socio economic thing along with the popularity of each sport, if African Americans are drifting more towards basketball and football the reason has far more to do with accessibility, representation (/promotion of the sport) and economic means than "the requisitory athletic predispositions in baseball".

[Dr. Dinger]

Tony LaRussa is a loser piece of s***. I wouldn't trust ANY man of that age with that haircut. Get a grip, son.

[Dr. Dinger]

Is this the new Politics thread? Miss me with dat s***.

[Jimcanuck]

If I recall correctly, the concern has been decreased participation in youth baseball leagues. Although this is probably a broader issue and not specific to the black community.

[glory]

MLB has to do a better job of not only getting more African American athletes, but appealing to African Americans period. It's not about equality or fairness, it's about growing the popularity of the sport. Pop culture and "black culture" are intertwined in 2020. If you lose the black audience, then you'll probably lose young people in general. One part of that is representation. I believe 20 years ago the % of black players was 15%. Another part of that is accessibility. It's more expensive to play baseball than other sports, so you're losing inner city kids who can't afford to play the sport, and/or don't have the fields/training to become better as they get older. There are absolutely benefits for MLB to have more black players and none of those benefits include equality/optics. Get back to 15% and I think there will be a noticeable difference in the perception of the sport. Double down on the inner cities across the country. Invest in it. They will get a return on that investment over time.

 

Another major problem is marketing, and that's unrelated to race since MLB couldn't make Trout or Harper bigger mainstream stars. That's a separate issue.

[metafour]

This is an absurd argument because the MLB is filled with Afro Caribbeans that genetically are very similar if not practically identical to African Americans. It is almost entirely a socio economic thing along with the popularity of each sport, if African Americans are drifting more towards basketball and football the reason has far more to do with accessibility, representation (/promotion of the sport) and economic means than "the requisitory athletic predispositions in baseball".

 

It isn't an absurd argument at all. The MLB had 31.9% "Latino" representation in 2017, and "Latino" also obviously includes non "Afro Caribbean" players. So even WITH an entire region that has a lot of people of West-African genetic origin who almost only care about baseball athletically, the amount of genetically "African" players (ie: African American + Afro Caribbean) is still not a "dominant" representation like you see in basketball or football. Yes there is a considerable amount of them because no one said that they possess NO genetic predisposition to be good at baseball, but its a much more egalitarian distribution because they don't have a monopoly on the genetic tools required to be good at baseball.

 

Use some common sense: the vast majority of African Americans in basketball have no place on a baseball field. The last data-point I could quickly find (2017/2018) put the average height in the NBA at 6'7. Where in the f*** on a baseball field does 6'7 fit? SS? CF? C? There is some truth that height = velocity in pitching, but even in that regard there is no shortage of tall white people in America. The reason why they aren't in the NBA is because they lack explosiveness at that height. That doesn't mean that they can't throw the ball extremely hard however.

 

You'll see the same thing with football where there is a huge demand for tall, THICK, and explosive players players on the OL and DL. That tool-set once again offers little to no value in baseball. A 6'5 300 pound man can basically only DH or play 1B. And that again is fully dependent on whether or not they even possess the hand eye coordination to hit the ball. That "skill" isn't a requirement at all to be a dominant OL or DL.

[connorp]

NBA is such a powerhouse in inner cities because everything is paid for on the good AAU circuit. Right down to clothes and shoes. Going across state lines for games: accommodations paid for. That’s because there’s people (shoe companies and coaches connected to colleges) that are profiting from the endeavor. It’s capitalism at work

 

There is no such thing in baseball. Not any elite travel team I’ve seen anyway.

[connorp]

Nice takedown metafour. He’ll never see the facts though

[Orgfiller]

Nice takedown metafour. He’ll never see the facts though

 

lol

[Orgfiller]

NBA is such a powerhouse in inner cities because everything is paid for on the good AAU circuit. Right down to clothes and shoes. Going across state lines for games: accommodations paid for. That’s because there’s people (shoe companies and coaches connected to colleges) that are profiting from the endeavor. It’s capitalism at work

 

There is no such thing in baseball. Not any elite travel team I’ve seen anyway.

 

You literally just provided a reason why African Americans might be underrepresented in baseball lol. Travel baseball is extremely expensive, especially for kids from a lower socioeconomic background - of which African Americans are disproportionately a part of.

[connorp]

You literally just provided a reason why African Americans might be underrepresented in baseball lol. Travel baseball is extremely expensive, especially for kids from a lower socioeconomic background - of which African Americans are disproportionately a part of.

 

I understand it’s part of the reasoning, yes. While the other reasons as well. But what I’m saying is there’s no middle man profiting off baseball, so that gives an unfair advantage to the NBA in terms of making the game accessible. It’s not up to MLB to subsidize travel team costs

 

On a mass scale anyway. They have the RBI program and other similar grants as the other leagues.

[TheHurl]

Why doesn't anyone ever mention the disproportionate representation of African Americans in the NBA and NFL when talking about diversity and inclusion in sports?

 

What have the NFL and NBA done to grow the game within the white community?

 

Maybe sports are more closely correlated with culture and not race.

 

Because they don't have issues with growth. Lets bring this down to straight business. In 1980 20 something percent of the players were African American. 25 percent of their fanbase were african American. Now 10.6% of MLB fans are African American (and there are less fans in total). Take a look at the MLB sponsors, I can't think of one which caters to the African American markets. So next time you are bitching about the changes to speeding up the game, your response should be "baseball doesn't need to speed up the game to get more viewers...it needs more black people".

[TheHurl]

Has anyone stopped to consider that not every African American can be a professional athlete?

 

If that subset of the population is grossly overrepresented in the NBA and NFL (which they are), then that overrepresentation has to be pulled from somewhere. The MLB's 8% African American demographic is in fact actually much closer to America's overall African American demographic (~13%) than either of the other two major sports.

 

The real reason why the African American demographic in baseball more closely resembles the actual demographics of the country is simple: the requisitory athletic predispositions in baseball (ie: hand eye coordination for hitting and and the mechanics of throwing a baseball for pitching) are not things that African Americans have a genetic dominance over. They don't have superiority because baseball is so highly mechanical and the "gifts" required are not skewed so heavily in their favour, unlike in basketball or football wherein their height and lower-body explosiveness advantage gives them a massive advantage. As I'm sure everyone knows, being 6'4 with a 40" vertical doesn't really do anything in baseball. Both basketball and football are essentially governed by this height/size/explosiveness ratio which is more or less useless in baseball unless you can actually hit the ball.

 

The nature of baseball actually makes it much more genetically "fair" than the other two major American sports. That is why you can see elite East Asian players in the MLB, and zero of them in the NBA and NFL. NBA basketball is in fact hugely popular in China and even in Japan/Korea - the fact that they have virtually zero representation has nothing to do with lack of interest.

 

And in 1980 when MLB African American representation matched the population representation they were built differently? How the f*** can you seriously attempt to make a "genetic makeup" argument for baseball being less African American and leave out eyesight which would be the absolute only argument you could have for blacks not being "made for baseball". Or at least say African Americans are more genetically diverse than white Americans. Although describing the perfect baseball build would be impossible

[bendera3]

I thought this was a pretty interesting read: https://www.wkyt.com/2020/09/10/woodford-countys-clinton-hollon-pitching-his-way-past-addiction/

[Carlos Danger]

MLB has to do a better job of not only getting more African American athletes, but appealing to African Americans period. It's not about equality or fairness, it's about growing the popularity of the sport. Pop culture and "black culture" are intertwined in 2020. If you lose the black audience, then you'll probably lose young people in general. One part of that is representation. I believe 20 years ago the % of black players was 15%. Another part of that is accessibility. It's more expensive to play baseball than other sports, so you're losing inner city kids who can't afford to play the sport, and/or don't have the fields/training to become better as they get older. There are absolutely benefits for MLB to have more black players and none of those benefits include equality/optics. Get back to 15% and I think there will be a noticeable difference in the perception of the sport. Double down on the inner cities across the country. Invest in it. They will get a return on that investment over time.

 

Another major problem is marketing, and that's unrelated to race since MLB couldn't make Trout or Harper bigger mainstream stars. That's a separate issue.

 

I agree with what you are saying, I think MLB does also. However, it appears you are asserting none of your suggestions/solutions are being done. They are, and have been. Are you familiar with the RBI program?

 

This is an article from 2015 that outlines some of the efforts. In 2020 they have increased the % with more on the way. Again, it is a fair debate to ask if what they are doing works, or if they are concentrating on the right areas for improvement. However, they are 100% trying to do something about it and recognize the problem/issue.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/04/14/mlb-diversity-percentage-of-african-american-players-remained-flat/25791993/

[connorp]

And in 1980 when MLB African American representation matched the population representation they were built differently? How the f*** can you seriously attempt to make a "genetic makeup" argument for baseball being less African American and leave out eyesight which would be the absolute only argument you could have for blacks not being "made for baseball". Or at least say African Americans are more genetically diverse than white Americans. Although describing the perfect baseball build would be impossible

 

What was the participation rate for blacks in the NBA and NFL in 1980? If that went way up and baseball came a little down, his take makes sense.

 

So does all of it. In 1980 there was just so much different in terms of training, access to elite sports, etc. The games are nothing like they were. Genetics have come to the forefront now with everyone having access. Now all the 7 foot black dudes are highly athletic and the huge linebackers run 4.3 40s. To not concede that African Americans are genetically superior in this case as a whole is like refusing to say males are stronger than women.

 

In baseball, it’s clearly a more level playing field. It’s not that black aren’t built for baseball, it’s just that they’re not genetically dominant at an elite level (ie in their ability to throw a 95mph fastball). His post was completely accurate but just something you don’t want to hear

[Spanky__99]

I thought this was a pretty interesting read: https://www.wkyt.com/2020/09/10/woodford-countys-clinton-hollon-pitching-his-way-past-addiction/

 

I hope that works out for him... geez.

[Laika]

I think this discussion on race in sport is very interesting. Everyone is making valid points.

 

I think it would be smart long-term marketing for baseball to really focus on making the sport affordable and accessible.

 

When people say baseball is a "white man's game" they aren't intending to talk about the athletes and the other participants... they are talking about the fans.

 

I despite quota-based analysis. I don't agree that MLB needs to hit some magic percentage of black participation.

 

I also don't agree that MLB has any social obligations here. There are certainly things they could do more intelligently from a marketing perspective and those things in turn would improve the optics.

 

Also, what are we really talking about here. Are we talking about MLB turning Kyler Murray into a baseball player rather than a football player? Or are we talking about baseball as a whole providing opportunities to low-income athletes who otherwise would not make it in any sport. These are very different things.

 

In short I agree with connnorp more than thehurl.

[Jimcanuck]

One obvious issue is LeBron, Magic, Barkley, Curry being highly visible.

 

Guys like Mookie, not so much.

 

MLB has been poorly run as a business for a long time.

[RobinThicc]

The only legaue that really has a lack of diversity is the NHL.

 

One knock on the NFL and NBA is the lack of black coaches and executives despite those leagues having a large % of black people.

[connorp]

One obvious issue is LeBron, Magic, Barkley, Curry being highly visible.

 

Guys like Mookie, not so much.

 

MLB has been poorly run as a business for a long time.

 

As was mentioned, you can say same about Trout. Again, a lot of what you’re talking about comes down to the profitability for 3rd parties. Do you see anyone in baseball getting $100m endorsement contracts? If Mookie was an NBA player his face would be all over (and not from pocket of NBA), so how is that mlb’s fault?

 

It starts with the fact nobody gives a s*** about college baseball compared to the huge business that is college football and basketball. The money and resources pouring in from 3rd parties to develop and steer kids early on just isn’t there for baseball.

[glory]

I agree with what you are saying, I think MLB does also. However, it appears you are asserting none of your suggestions/solutions are being done. They are, and have been. Are you familiar with the RBI program?

 

This is an article from 2015 that outlines some of the efforts. In 2020 they have increased the % with more on the way. Again, it is a fair debate to ask if what they are doing works, or if they are concentrating on the right areas for improvement. However, they are 100% trying to do something about it and recognize the problem/issue.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/04/14/mlb-diversity-percentage-of-african-american-players-remained-flat/25791993/

 

The RBI program started 30 years ago and the percentage of black MLB players has gone from 17% to 8% during that span. Don't get me wrong, the RBI program is a good thing, and I believe MLB has started to do more recently to increase participation, but there is a reason why former and current black players formed the Players Alliance. More could be done in those communities. Giving underprivileged kids who can't afford to play the sport (a lot of them being black due to obvious factors) an opportunity to not only play it but also develop with proper coaching, will potentially create a pipeline of future baseball players who otherwise would have never even considered the sport due to their financial situation. Worst case, most of those kids decide to do something else, but still get a passion for the sport that they never had before they started playing it. As I said, forget about PR or optics, look at it from a pure business standpoint. Investing more in those areas has far greater marketing upside than practically any other demo they are reaching right now.

 

I don't think there needs to be a quota for the amount of black players in the league. The issue is more so giving kids who can't afford to play the game a chance to play it, and also to increase the black audience watching the sport. You do both of those things to make the sport more popular/money, not to placate anybody or reach a quota. Of course, MLB is really bad at marketing its players of any race, so that brings up another issue that needs to be corrected.

[glory]

In other news, Stroman has accepted the QO from the Mets.