Around Baseball 2020

[connorp]

I never understood the love for the Rays either. They have great player development, no doubt about that, but nothing about them is fun or 'cool' as a fan. Never mind the s***** stadium, non existent fan base, and boring style of play.

 

They’re hardly other-worldly. I just took a look and in the past decade they’ve drafted like 15 position players in the 1st round or comp round and there’s nothing there but a huge pile of dogshit.

 

I mean if a guy like Franco works out, it’ll make their style more fun to watch

 

I mean obviously they’re more crafty than most teams and could put together a winning roster sans star bats but they’re not Gods of player development/scouting

[Olerud363]

But yeah. If I was a star pitcher and pulled after 4 innings with an 11-0 lead I'd request a trade out of town so fast. Despite what all the baseball nerds and progressive writers think. W-L records still count for something.

 

That's why it's not going to happen with Degrom, or Kershaw. It's going to happen with a Pearson or Merryweather type playing for the Rays or As.

 

Someone who has had a little bit of failure and will be on board with a strategy that can keep them healthy and more effective.

 

Maybe stats like WPA will become more important than wins. Some metric that accounts for leverage and opposition quality.

 

Guy goes 10-4 1.5 with 200 ks in 150 innings he'll still get paid, teams will use advanced measure that include leverage

 

You may not like this, but that's money-ball. If the strategy makes a team win why wouldn't they use it??

 

I guess you could argue that if the fans get pissed their favourite player isn't getting 700 PAs and the line up is different everyday, and their favourite pitcher is pulled early they will get pissed off and not buy tickets.

 

But will they if the team is winning?

 

Just saying these strategies won't stop because you guys don't like them... they will stop if they are useless... like if 150 optimized innings isn't worth it.

[dineke]

I never understood the love for the Rays either. They have great player development, no doubt about that, but nothing about them is fun or 'cool' as a fan. Never mind the s***** stadium, non existent fan base, and boring style of play.

 

They're just following the footsteps of the A's but without the movie or good uniforms.

[Dick_Pole]

The current Rays suck to watch. It's largely a bunch of platoon-y players, starters they only ask to go 4-5 innings, and long relievers. Almost none of their current contributors will even be with the team in 3 years. Being a fan of that team would be awful.

 

The 2008-2013 Rays were a lot of fun. Always a deep rotation featuring guys like Price/Shields/Garza and later on Archer and Moore. And the lineup had actual long-term star appeal: Longoria was on a HoF trajectory, Zobrist was low-key great, Crawford was an exciting lead-off hitter, Jennings and Upton were young and exciting and contributed despite never really reaching their potential. Pena was a middle of the order monster for a few years. And the bullpen was always lights out.

 

As in other words they leveraged their decade of dogshit start into some decent homegrown players eventually. Then every one of those players walked or was shipped out pretty much at the first opportunity except Longoria. Sort of like the Jays, except it took the Rays longer, resulted in no World Series, the Jays kept a lot of their homegrown talent or traded them for equal stars and the Jays packed their stadium.

 

The Rays are no Gillick or Beane-led FO. More like a cheap knockoff that has no lower bounds in order to invent some kind of advantage. I'll take the banging of pots and pans like a two year old from the Astros than what the Rays do any day.

[TheHurl]

I feel like being away for a week the BJMB universe was trying to draw me out for an argument. Deep down you are all a bunch of old white men who don't want to see anything different

[Boxcar]

I feel like being away for a week the BJMB universe was trying to draw me out for an argument. Deep down you are all a bunch of old white men who don't want to see anything different

 

Why don't you go jerk off to a replay of a Ryan Yarbrough start, you queef

[Olerud363]

In my head, the 2001 Mariners won the WS, they were one of the best teams of all time.

 

2000 Yankees won 3rd World Series in a row with an 87 win team

 

Next year they didn't quite win World Series but cemented their legacy by preventing Mariners from breaking their 1998 114+11 = 125 total wins.

[glory]

I feel like being away for a week the BJMB universe was trying to draw me out for an argument. Deep down you are all a bunch of old white men who don't want to see anything different

 

If the Rays were a fun team to watch with identifiable stars, a rabid fan base, etc, etc, then I would be more lenient with their stuff. But that’s not the case. They are dull as s***. They have a poor fan base. Their stadium is garbage. They trade someone the moment that player is making a 7 figure paycheck, or they’ll trade someone the moment that player isn’t making 20 cents on the dollar of what they are actually worth. They are bad for baseball in every conceivable way. If expansion won’t happen any time soon, then they should absolutely move to Nashville which has a lot of potential and would likely appreciate a good team a lot more than the Tampa area has.

[BTS]

As in other words they leveraged their decade of dogshit start into some decent homegrown players eventually. Then every one of those players walked or was shipped out pretty much at the first opportunity except Longoria. Sort of like the Jays, except it took the Rays longer, resulted in no World Series, the Jays kept a lot of their homegrown talent or traded them for equal stars and the Jays packed their stadium.

 

The Rays are no Gillick or Beane-led FO. More like a cheap knockoff that has no lower bounds in order to invent some kind of advantage. I'll take the banging of pots and pans like a two year old from the Astros than what the Rays do any day.

 

You're selling their front office short because you don't like the way they're run at the ownership level. They're on a 13-year run of fielding competitive teams with what I'm guessing is the lowest payroll in baseball over that stretch. It's not good for baseball and it's not entertaining to watch, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that they don't have one of the best-performing front-offices in the league.

[Olerud363]

You're selling their front office short because you don't like the way they're run at the ownership level. They're on a 13-year run of fielding competitive teams with what I'm guessing is the lowest payroll in baseball over that stretch. It's not good for baseball and it's not entertaining to watch, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that they don't have one of the best-performing front-offices in the league.

 

I demand the Jays stop using Merryweather and Hatch the way they are. Either make them lights out 1 inning late inning relievers or 6 inning starters for the good of baseball.

[Olerud363]

I demand the Jays stop using Merryweather and Hatch the way they are. Either make them lights out 1 inning late inning relievers or 6 inning starters for the good of baseball.

 

I think what the Rays are doing is great. They are trying to break free of artificial constructs and the only thing that should stop them is whether or not their strategies work or not. not whether they are annoying fans.

 

I'm still not sure if it will all work long term. History isn't always stupid, so it may have already optimized the use of starters and relievers, but good for the Rays to push the envelope. They should stop when they stop winning.

[Brownie19]

If the Rays were a fun team to watch with identifiable stars, a rabid fan base, etc, etc, then I would be more lenient with their stuff. But that’s not the case. They are dull as s***. They have a poor fan base. Their stadium is garbage. They trade someone the moment that player is making a 7 figure paycheck, or they’ll trade someone the moment that player isn’t making 20 cents on the dollar of what they are actually worth. They are bad for baseball in every conceivable way. If expansion won’t happen any time soon, then they should absolutely move to Nashville which has a lot of potential and would likely appreciate a good team a lot more than the Tampa area has.

 

I started this s*** show. Perhaps I should have clarified that I really respect what the FO is able to do. They are put in an incredibly s***** situation year in and year out (as you noted) - horrible stadium, no fans, no budget, AL East - yet they continue to find ways to be competitive. It's really astonishing to be honest. I applaud their ability to think outside the box and continue to win instead of just tanking to get draft picks like the Padres, Astros, etc. I personally don't give a f*** if 'traditional' baseball is changing and if some old farts and stubborn players don't like it. If you choose tradition over winning - you're a f***ing loser.

 

Ownership and the franchise in general is a complete s*** show - but the on-field product really is remarkable.

[glory]

I started this s*** show. Perhaps I should have clarified that I really respect what the FO is able to do. They are put in an incredibly s***** situation year in and year out (as you noted) - horrible stadium, no fans, no budget, AL East - yet they continue to find ways to be competitive. It's really astonishing to be honest. I applaud their ability to think outside the box and continue to win instead of just tanking to get draft picks like the Padres, Astros, etc. I personally don't give a f*** if 'traditional' baseball is changing and if some old farts and stubborn players don't like it. If you choose tradition over winning - you're a f***ing loser.

 

Ownership and the franchise in general is a complete s*** show - but the on-field product really is remarkable.

 

I think if you had Tampa's outside the box thinking but with the White Sox roster (young, super talented, charismatic, marketable, etc), then it would be less annoying. It's just that they do what they do in addition to having the most white meat, dull, super bland roster ever (combined with all the other crap they do as already mentioned). They'll never have a franchise player anymore because they'll trade him as soon as he's arb eligible. They'll never have fans because of the location of their stadium. Their style of play is literally the embodiment of what baseball is trying to get rid of. If you ask young non fans about what they find boring about baseball, they'd unknowingly describe the Rays almost perfectly.

 

You can appreciate that they get so much out of so little, but it's still bad for the game. At least the Moneyball A's had players opposing fans would be able to name. The Rays are just so boring.

[Stangstag]

This Dodgers/Padres series should be fun

[z3r0s]

Wow, popped open the Reds - Pirates game to see if my pitcher was starting game 1 or 2. The Reds have ONE player in the lineup hitting above .230. And that player is hitting .244

[Ray]

The Rockies started the season 11-3. They realistically only had to go 19-27 the rest of the way to make the playoffs but have fallen off a cliff. What a terrible franchise.

[Boxcar]

I started this s*** show. Perhaps I should have clarified that I really respect what the FO is able to do. They are put in an incredibly s***** situation year in and year out (as you noted) - horrible stadium, no fans, no budget, AL East - yet they continue to find ways to be competitive. It's really astonishing to be honest. I applaud their ability to think outside the box and continue to win instead of just tanking to get draft picks like the Padres, Astros, etc. I personally don't give a f*** if 'traditional' baseball is changing and if some old farts and stubborn players don't like it. If you choose tradition over winning - you're a f***ing loser.

 

Ownership and the franchise in general is a complete s*** show - but the on-field product really is remarkable.

 

What a charitable depiction of the people who disagree with you.

[BTS]

Wow, popped open the Reds - Pirates game to see if my pitcher was starting game 1 or 2. The Reds have ONE player in the lineup hitting above .230. And that player is hitting .244

 

I'm watching the game. They're being absolutely carved up by Cody Ponce.

[TheHurl]

I started this s*** show. Perhaps I should have clarified that I really respect what the FO is able to do. They are put in an incredibly s***** situation year in and year out (as you noted) - horrible stadium, no fans, no budget, AL East - yet they continue to find ways to be competitive. It's really astonishing to be honest. I applaud their ability to think outside the box and continue to win instead of just tanking to get draft picks like the Padres, Astros, etc. I personally don't give a f*** if 'traditional' baseball is changing and if some old farts and stubborn players don't like it. If you choose tradition over winning - you're a f***ing loser.

 

Ownership and the franchise in general is a complete s*** show - but the on-field product really is remarkable.

 

I don't think you can blame the current ownership at all. The only years they made any money between 2007 and 2018 were the playoffs seasons. They have publicly said that they operated at a loss without leeching off of the rest of MLB. 2019 that changed. They added $50M a year in a TV deal. But it doesn't change that they are saddled with the worst most iron clad lease in history. They had the biggest increase in TV ratings of all teams in 2019 and 2020 they are top 5. Ownership is doing what they can to get out of the lease but asking them to break it without a stadium in Tampa would be stupid. Owners should not be expected to operate at a loss. By 2027 if they don't invest in the team then they can have the bad owner label

.

[TheHurl]

I think if you had Tampa's outside the box thinking but with the White Sox roster (young, super talented, charismatic, marketable, etc), then it would be less annoying. It's just that they do what they do in addition to having the most white meat, dull, super bland roster ever (combined with all the other crap they do as already mentioned). They'll never have a franchise player anymore because they'll trade him as soon as he's arb eligible. They'll never have fans because of the location of their stadium. Their style of play is literally the embodiment of what baseball is trying to get rid of. If you ask young non fans about what they find boring about baseball, they'd unknowingly describe the Rays almost perfectly.

 

You can appreciate that they get so much out of so little, but it's still bad for the game. At least the Moneyball A's had players opposing fans would be able to name. The Rays are just so boring.

 

This I can't disagree with the Rays model is tough, maybe impossible to market. Forty-six batting orders in 47 games...200 walks to just 209 singles. Having a guy with an over .600 slugging percentage who plays above average defense at 4 positions but 90% of fantasy baseball players couldn't even name cause he has half of the PA's of anyone in baseball. But they aren't doing this to keep Mike Brosseau cheap, they are using their advantages to ensure he has the best opportunity to be that good (and they know it's not in his skill set to do this full-time). They have 29 players this year above replacement level, and their biggest star from last year is not one of them. I am fully aware that I am in the minority in loving the structure and build of a 40 man roster, but it just blows me away that people can sit here and put down what they are building and have built. This is a team which has won the 5th most games in a 13 year stretch since Silverman has been President. I will take these Rays to win a World Series over the "young and exciting" White Sox (who still can't beat a good team) and the "you can't blow this" Padres.

[Laika]

Personally, I love the Rays. I just wish they would move to any other city so they could sometimes have a payroll inside the top ~20 in the league. Keep all the baseball innovation but remove some of the money saving "innovation".

[Laika]

The thing about the Rays is you could say their moves are money driven but often times they end up just simply getting better players in the trade.

 

Often works out that way because they are on a different level, but they get f***ed sometimes for it.

 

Just this past offseason they actually included Jake Cronenworth with Tommy Pham to try to milk value out of Pham before he got too expensive in arbitration. Xavier Edwards could be really good I guess but Cronenworth is a stud and Renfroe f***ing sucks. So that one is nice to see.

 

But it's not just the trades. They do other annoying money saving stuff, like platoon everybody and do weird RP usage in (small) part to suppress arb salaries, non-tender useful players who are set to make a tiny bit more in arb, blah

[dineke]

Personally, I love the Rays. I just wish they would move to any other city so they could sometimes have a payroll inside the top ~20 in the league. Keep all the baseball innovation but remove some of the money saving "innovation".

 

Are they still going ahead with that stupid half tampa bay half montreal thing? It seemed so stupid that it had to be posturing by the owner right? If not, wow.

[Laika]

Are they still going ahead with that stupid half tampa bay half montreal thing? It seemed so stupid that it had to be posturing by the owner right? If not, wow.

 

It will never happen but I thought it was a great idea.

[Brownie19]

I don't think you can blame the current ownership at all. The only years they made any money between 2007 and 2018 were the playoffs seasons. They have publicly said that they operated at a loss without leeching off of the rest of MLB. 2019 that changed. They added $50M a year in a TV deal. But it doesn't change that they are saddled with the worst most iron clad lease in history. They had the biggest increase in TV ratings of all teams in 2019 and 2020 they are top 5. Ownership is doing what they can to get out of the lease but asking them to break it without a stadium in Tampa would be stupid. Owners should not be expected to operate at a loss. By 2027 if they don't invest in the team then they can have the bad owner label

.

 

Did the current ownership sign the lease? or did someone else buy the franchise and inherit it?

[TheHurl]

Did the current ownership sign the lease? or did someone else buy the franchise

TITLE OF AGREEMENT:

Agreement for the Use, Management and Operation of the Domed Stadium in St.

Petersburg Including the Provision of Major League Baseball between the City of St.

Petersburg, Florida and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, Ltd, a Florida Limited Partnership.

TERM OF AGREEMENT: 32 years, effective on April 28, 1995. The Term expires

at the end of the 2027 MLB Season. –Article 1(x), pg. 6

PAYMENTS/EXPENSES

RENT:

Section 4.02 – Ticket Stub Funds paid to Capital Account and the CITY

In lieu of rent, the Club pays to the City and into a Capital Account, a portion of ticket

sales, which is calculated based on the following:

1) “Beginning with the AMT [(active management term)] and thereafter during

the Term, $.50 for each Ticket Stub Collected for any baseball or non-baseball

event . . . ;

 

2) In each and every Year of the Term that the number of Ticket Stubs Collected

for regular season MLB Home Games exceed 3,300,000, in addition to the

$.50 above, $.25 for each such Ticket Stub Collected in excess of the

3,300,000.” –pg. 17

The Club shall pay according to the following terms:

1) “The first $250,000 shall be paid into the Capital Account.

2) The next $100,000 shall be paid to the CITY and represent the rent to be paid

from the Ticket Stub Funds. . . .

3) Any amount over $350,000 shall be paid to the CITY to reimburse the expenses

incurred and the services provided by the CITY under this Agreement.” –pg. 18

Section 4.03 – DOME Naming Rights

If the team sells the name of the DOME, then it shall pay accordingly:

a) “The first $800,000 shall be retained by the CLUB.

The next $250,000 shall be paid by the CLUB into the Capital Account.

c) The next $500,000 shall be paid 50% to the CLUB and 50% to the CITY.

d) Any amount over $1,550,000 shall be paid 85% to the CLUB and 15% to the

CITY.” –pg. 19

CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS

Section 5.01 – Capital Repair, Renewal and Replacement Sinking Fund Account

The Capital Account (established with funds deposited based on ticket sales) is

designated as the “Capital Repair, Renewal and Replacement Account.” “All

withdrawals shall require the co-signature of the Chief Financial Officer of the CITY.” –

pg. 21

“[T]he CLUB shall be solely responsible for the cost of any capital repairs, renewals or

replacements exceeding the moneys available in the Capital Account and applicable

available insurance proceeds.” –pg. 21

Section 5.02 – Additional Contributions to the Capital Account

In addition to the Ticket Stub Funds deposited to the Capital Account, beginning with the

sixth year of the AMT, the CLUB is expected to contribute $700,000 annually, totaling

$4,200,000 for the six consecutive years until the eleventh year of the AMT.” –pg. 22

MAINTENANCE

Section 4.01 – Fee for Services-Stadium Revenues

“During the AMT [(active management term)] the CLUB shall pay all costs and expenses

of operation, maintenance and management of the DOME, including, but not limited to,

all gas, electricity and other utilities related to the operation of the DOME and production

of all events taking place at the DOME.” –pg. 16

 

NON-RELOCATON / RETENTION CLAUSE

The agreement does not include a specific reference to a non-relocation clause; however,

if the CLUB defaults on any payments subject to the Ticket Stub Funds and/or payments

to the Capital Account, the CITY has the right “to seek and obtain an injunction or decree

of specific performance or an equitable remedy from a court of competent jurisdiction to

enjoin or remedy any violation of the Agreement.”

[Boxcar]

Personally, I love the Rays. I just wish they would move to any other city so they could sometimes have a payroll inside the top ~20 in the league. Keep all the baseball innovation but remove some of the money saving "innovation".

 

What's the difference between their baseball innovation and money saving innovation? Seems like they are one and the same to me. If I was a baseball player, I'd probably rather dip my nuts in boiling tar than play for the the Rays, who will inevitably try to screw me out of money.

[Boxcar]

This I can't disagree with the Rays model is tough, maybe impossible to market. Forty-six batting orders in 47 games...200 walks to just 209 singles. Having a guy with an over .600 slugging percentage who plays above average defense at 4 positions but 90% of fantasy baseball players couldn't even name cause he has half of the PA's of anyone in baseball. But they aren't doing this to keep Mike Brosseau cheap, they are using their advantages to ensure he has the best opportunity to be that good (and they know it's not in his skill set to do this full-time). They have 29 players this year above replacement level, and their biggest star from last year is not one of them. I am fully aware that I am in the minority in loving the structure and build of a 40 man roster, but it just blows me away that people can sit here and put down what they are building and have built. This is a team which has won the 5th most games in a 13 year stretch since Silverman has been President. I will take these Rays to win a World Series over the "young and exciting" White Sox (who still can't beat a good team) and the "you can't blow this" Padres.

 

I haven't seen anyone say that the Rays aren't successful. All people are saying is that their methods to achieve success suck ass, drive people away from baseball and make the Rays boring as f*** to watch and follow. Then, their ******** starts to infect other teams. Also, lol @ your characterization of Brosseau. They are keeping him as a stupid platoon player to keep his arb value down. If they actually cared about maintaining his high performance, I don't think they'd have let Choi look like a dipshit as a switch hitter, or maybe they'd have called up Nate Lowe sooner while Tsutsogo and Choi both hit below the Mendoza line.

 

All the Rays care about is keeping things cheap. They are the same as any soulless corporation that has to answer to shareholders, except somehow even worse because I'd take Rogers in a heartbeat over their ownership group.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Boxcar
Infect is a better word

[G-Snarls]

Padres are absolutely on fire

[glory]

https://nypost.com/2020/09/15/mlb-playoff-contenders-to-enter-quarantine-before-season-ends/

 

Beginning next week — the last of the regular season — all players on contending teams will move into hotels to create a quarantine-like situation before the playoffs, sources told The Post.

 

The expanded 16-team playoffs will have the best-of-three first round played exclusively in the higher seed’s home stadium. The Division Series and League Championship Series will be played in bubble-like scenarios. The NL playoffs will be contested in Houston and Arlington, Texas at the stadiums of the Astros and Rangers. The AL playoffs will be contested in San Diego and Los Angeles and at the stadiums of the Padres and Dodgers.

 

The World Series will be played at the new Globe Life Field in Arlington.