General 2020 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Orgfiller]

They are very different players. Biggio would have to become a batting title level hitter to become Alomar. With his strikeout rates and batted ball profile that will never, ever happen.

 

Chase Utley is a better comparison but even that's a stretch.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but what? Alomar was obviously a phenomenal player, but he ended up with the same career wRC+ as Chase Utley, another phenomenal player. Peak Utley might even have been a better player than peak Alomar, or at least just as good. For Biggio to become as good of a hitter as those guys at their best he doesn't have to become a "batting title level hitter" at all, merely exceed his power output - not impossible given his swing path - or lower his K rate a fair bit more without sacrificing the rest of his toolset, he's not exactly Joey Gallo at the plate.

 

For Biggio to become either of those guys he'd actually have to significantly improve his defense, not his offense.

[Spanky99]

Don't take this the wrong way, but what? Alomar was obviously a phenomenal player, but he ended up with the same career wRC+ as Chase Utley, another phenomenal player. Peak Utley might even have been a better player than peak Alomar, or at least just as good. For Biggio to become as good of a hitter as those guys at their best he doesn't have to become a "batting title level hitter" at all, merely exceed his power output - not impossible given his swing path - or lower his K rate a fair bit more without sacrificing the rest of his toolset, he's not exactly Joey Gallo at the plate.

 

For Biggio to become either of those guys he'd actually have to significantly improve his defense, not his offense.

 

I beg to differ with them defensive metrics, hence why I hate them. Robby was a magician there, never seen anyone better. He was unbelievable Org. Miles ahead of anyone in the league. Good bat, but...

[connorp]

I beg to differ with them defensive metrics, hence why I hate them. Robby was a magician there, never seen anyone better. He was unbelievable Org. Miles ahead of anyone in the league. Good bat, but...

 

Yeah I looked at Alomar’s FG page for kicks when the comparison was first brought up and was shocked by the D rankings. Thought what you said but was still kind of young to remember so didn’t say anything

[Orgfiller]

I beg to differ with them defensive metrics, hence why I hate them. Robby was a magician there, never seen anyone better. He was unbelievable Org. Miles ahead of anyone in the league. Good bat, but...

 

Yeah that's why I argued it from an offensive point of view. Utley being a more modern player has more accurate defensive stats so we know how excellent he was at the position. Robbie by all accounts was a sight to behold at the keystone so I'm not gonna debate 20-30 year old defensive metrics that didn't think he was all that. Like I said, for Biggio to become anywhere near as good as those guys he'd actually have to elevate his defense to near elite levels, as his baserunning and offense have been quite good already and the latter IMO has room for growth.

[Spanky99]

Yeah I looked at Alomar’s FG page for kicks when the comparison was first brought up and was shocked by the D rankings. Thought what you said but was still kind of young to remember so didn’t say anything

 

Nah, it's stupid, likely cause he got to so many balls at the time, he was magical. f*** the metrics, no one was even close.

[Spanky99]

Yeah that's why I argued it from an offensive point of view. Utley being a more modern player has more accurate defensive stats so we know how excellent he was at the position. Robbie by all accounts was a sight to behold at the keystone so I'm not gonna debate 20-30 year old defensive metrics that didn't think he was all that. Like I said, for Biggio to become anywhere near as good as those guys he'd actually have to elevate his defense to near elite levels, as his baserunning and offense have been quite good already and the latter IMO has room for growth.

 

Fair enough, that make sense, bro. Tony was like watching Robby at 2nd, they were silly good. Mind you guys came along better than Tony, haven't seen it yet at 2nd base. Ever, dude that went to Philly was close.

 

I kind of wish you saw him play Org, he dropped your mouth once a week easy.

[wilko]

I really want the Jays to make one impactful signing or trade soon so that we can see the overall plan start to unfold and know that we've added at least one substantial piece

 

Dude they signed Tyler White!

[Jimcanuck]

https://razzball.com/top-10-toronto-blue-jays-prospects-for-2021-fantasy-baseball/

[King]

Has anyone noticed that Alejandro Kirk projects to be the best hitting catcher in baseball?

[G-Snarls]

Has anyone noticed that Alejandro Kirk projects to be the best hitting catcher in baseball?

 

Not till you mentioned it

 

Nice

[Olerud363]

They are very different players. Biggio would have to become a batting title level hitter to become Alomar. With his strikeout rates and batted ball profile that will never, ever happen.

 

Chase Utley is a better comparison but even that's a stretch.

 

Alomar was a 6 WAR player when he hit .320. Alomar didn't have as high a WAR as you'd expect from a gold glove 2b because weirdly his defense was slightly negative, at about the same level as Biggio's.

 

If Biggio hit .320 and kept everything else he'd beat Alomar because of some extra walks. I agree that Biggio won't become a .320 hitter.

 

If he became a .270 hitter, kept the walks, and added a bit of power?? Then he'd probably be at Alomar level in terms of WAR. A .270 hitter with 110 walks, and 30 homers. Prime Alomar was more like a .320 hitter with 80 walks and 20 homers.

 

Not really trying to say 'Biggio will become Alomar', just that their first 160 games with the Jays are comparable and if Biggio improved he could get there.

 

I think the limiting factor is that Biggio was 25 and Alomar 23 when they got to the 4 WAR point... those 2 years probably make a big difference in the career arc.

[Jimcanuck]

Spanky is right, Alomar was incredible defensively at least through his peak years. I've never seen a 2B turn a double play as well as he did, with every relay to 1B dead on the money. And he could range deep into the hole even past 2B or to the 1B side and make an acrobatic throw for an out.

 

Basically with Olerud (not the above poster) at 1B and Alomar at 2B, anything hit on the ground towards RF was invariably an out.

[John Balkabella]

Alomar at second during his Jays days was one of the few guys that made my draw drop. I’ve never seen anyone better, and I’ve been watching ball since the early sixties.

 

If I were putting an all defence team together, I’d start with Robbie at the keystone and Ozzie Smith at short. Keep in mind, shifts weren’t in vogue in those days, you had to go get the ball.

 

They were spectacular.

[G-Snarls]

Spanky is right, Alomar was incredible defensively at least through his peak years. I've never seen a 2B turn a double play as well as he did, with every relay to 1B dead on the money. And he could range deep into the hole even past 2B or to the 1B side and make an acrobatic throw for an out.

 

Basically with Olerud (not the above poster) at 1B and Alomar at 2B, anything hit on the ground towards RF was invariably an out.

 

[RotatorCuff]

 

Catch the Taste!

 

if you know this quote, you know Alomar was special to watch play.

[G-Snarls]

Catch the Taste!

 

if you know this quote, you know Alomar was special to watch play.

 

As a New Brunswicker and lifelong Jays fan this means a lot to me. LOL

[Olerud363]

Paging Keith Law on both Cavan Biggio and Rowdy Tellez.

 

Keith just recently

 

"Nope. He's just not very good, and those stats are really skewed by a big September in 2019 when he feasted on some garbage pitching. Tampa Bay had his number - they attacked him with velocity and he couldn't adjust."

 

For the record he was also very good in August of 2020. He was very good in the key 4 game Yankee series Sept 22-26 2020, where I would think they were trying their hardest to neuter him with fastballs. He had almost a 1.000 ops in these games (I checked on bbref, go to 'game logs' and highlight a series of games to get the split).

 

I also checked September 2019. They played Baltimore... yes. And Cavan cycled against Baltimore yes. They also played TBR, NYY, Houston, Atlanta a bunch.

 

Good players crush bad pitching. No reason to think September 2019 was that weird... Cavan will have lots more games against good pitching which he will not hit as well as bad pitching. But in a 162 game slate there will be a mix of both. No reason to think Cavan's 160 game sampled is biased.

[Orgfiller]

Keith just recently

 

"Nope. He's just not very good, and those stats are really skewed by a big September in 2019 when he feasted on some garbage pitching. Tampa Bay had his number - they attacked him with velocity and he couldn't adjust."

 

For the record he was also very good in August of 2020. He was very good in the key 4 game Yankee series Sept 22-26 2020, where I would think they were trying their hardest to neuter him with fastballs. He had almost a 1.000 ops in these games (I checked on bbref, go to 'game logs' and highlight a series of games to get the split).

 

I also checked September 2019. They played Baltimore... yes. And Cavan cycled against Baltimore yes. They also played TBR, NYY, Houston, Atlanta a bunch.

 

Good players crush bad pitching. No reason to think September 2019 was that weird... Cavan will have lots more games against good pitching which he will not hit as well as bad pitching. But in a 162 game slate there will be a mix of both. No reason to think Cavan's 160 game sampled is biased.

 

Biggio has a .272/.398/.481 career slash line against the Rays lol. He crushed them to a (small smaple) 208 wRC+ this season after an 84 wRC+ (also small sample) the last, so much for Tampa having his number and Biggio being unable to adjust.

 

Keith Law is talking out of his ass.

[BTS]

I have nothing to add to this other than that I despise Keith Law. He's a sniveling little weasel who takes himself far too seriously to ever admit he was wrong about anything.

[wilko]

Catch the Taste!

 

if you know this quote, you know Alomar was special to watch play.

 

I got Alomar to sign a ball for me in 94 when they were in Boston playing the Sox. He came out with a glass of red wine in his hand. Pretty cool dude.

 

[Deadpool]

Catch the Taste!

 

if you know this quote, you know Alomar was special to watch play.

 

The one with McCain Punch?

[RotatorCuff]

I got Alomar to sign a ball for me in 94 when they were in Boston playing the Sox. He came out with a glass of red wine in his hand. Pretty cool dude.

 

 

that commercial still makes me laugh.

 

I was lucky enough to play on the field with him in one of those old timers fantasy days a few years ago. He had some injuries then that limited him to only 1b for a couple of innings but he did almost take my buddy deep for a HR which he will never forget.

 

Tony Fernandez and Roberto Alomar are my two favorite all time Jays. Yes I'm old.

[Abomination]

Yeah I looked at Alomar’s FG page for kicks when the comparison was first brought up and was shocked by the D rankings. Thought what you said but was still kind of young to remember so didn’t say anything

 

It likely has to do with the turf. That old stuff was basically carpet, and lightning quick. Alomar was magical at 2nd. If you remember Orlando Hudson (who was also excellent defensively), add a step of range to him and you probably get Robbie.

[Spanky99]

It likely has to do with the turf. That old stuff was basically carpet, and lightning quick. Alomar was magical at 2nd. If you remember Orlando Hudson (who was also excellent defensively), add a step of range to him and you probably get Robbie.

 

Yeah, the O-Dawg was great, just not Alomar elite.

[Spanky99]

Bo and Stripling talk on the latter's Podcast about DJ...

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/hes-killer-blue-jays-bo-bichette-love-play-dj-lemahieu/

Edited December 17, 2020 by Spanky99

[Grant77]

Bo and Springer talk on the latter's Podcast about DJ...

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/hes-killer-blue-jays-bo-bichette-love-play-dj-lemahieu/

 

Stripling

[Spanky99]

Stripling

 

Yes, lol. Freudian slip as I was linking the Springer story from Passan.

[keggy]

Don't take this the wrong way, but what? Alomar was obviously a phenomenal player, but he ended up with the same career wRC+ as Chase Utley, another phenomenal player. Peak Utley might even have been a better player than peak Alomar, or at least just as good. For Biggio to become as good of a hitter as those guys at their best he doesn't have to become a "batting title level hitter" at all, merely exceed his power output - not impossible given his swing path - or lower his K rate a fair bit more without sacrificing the rest of his toolset, he's not exactly Joey Gallo at the plate.

 

For Biggio to become either of those guys he'd actually have to significantly improve his defense, not his offense.

 

I was only referring to their profiles, since the purpose of the original post seemed to be projecting future value.

 

Alomar was a career .300 hitter and at the height of his powers had gap power to all fields and strong control of the strike zone. Because of his swing and profile, Biggio may hit .300 in individual seasons, but he will never consistently hit for average like Alomar. Conversely, Biggio's patience is elite and he has more power than Alomar, again due to his fundamentally different approach.

 

On the bases, Alomar was a high-volume burner while Biggio is a highly efficient baserunner with solid average footspeed. I can envision Biggio providing similar value with his legs as Alomar without the benefit of 50 SB. Again, completely different tools/profiles.

 

With the glove the two aren't comparable. Alomar was an all-time great with lateral range in both directions and the arm of a shortstop. He was basically Robinson Cano without the steroids and more acrobatics. Biggio is fringe average and just doesn't have that physical firepower. With his baseball IQ I wouldn't be surprised if he continues to improve his D, depending on how much autonomy he has with positioning.

 

Biggio and Alomar have very little in common other than they both played 2B for the Blue Jays. I'm not saying Biggio isn't capable of putting up 6 win seasons (he can but probably won't). But if he does, it will be with a drastically different offensive profile.

 

Like I said, a Biggio career year probably looks more similar to Chase Utley (later career start, great power, eye-popping value on the bases without being a burner, etc.), but even then the comp isn't great.

[Laika]

Biggio's top ZiPS comparison this year was actually Lou Whitaker, which is pretty cool. The K rate might not track but a lot of other things seem to.

[Deadpool]

I was only referring to their profiles, since the purpose of the original post seemed to be projecting future value.

 

Alomar was a career .300 hitter and at the height of his powers had gap power to all fields and strong control of the strike zone. Because of his swing and profile, Biggio may hit .300 in individual seasons, but he will never consistently hit for average like Alomar. Conversely, Biggio's patience is elite and he has more power than Alomar, again due to his fundamentally different approach.

 

On the bases, Alomar was a high-volume burner while Biggio is a highly efficient baserunner with solid average footspeed. I can envision Biggio providing similar value with his legs as Alomar without the benefit of 50 SB. Again, completely different tools/profiles.

 

With the glove the two aren't comparable. Alomar was an all-time great with lateral range in both directions and the arm of a shortstop. He was basically Robinson Cano without the steroids and more acrobatics. Biggio is fringe average and just doesn't have that physical firepower. With his baseball IQ I wouldn't be surprised if he continues to improve his D, depending on how much autonomy he has with positioning.

 

Biggio and Alomar have very little in common other than they both played 2B for the Blue Jays. I'm not saying Biggio isn't capable of putting up 6 win seasons (he can but probably won't). But if he does, it will be with a drastically different offensive profile.

 

Like I said, a Biggio career year probably looks more similar to Chase Utley (later career start, great power, eye-popping value on the bases without being a burner, etc.), but even then the comp isn't great.

 

There may not be a player in baseball that would benefit more from roboumps than Biggio.