Offseason Roster Thread 2019-2020

[Laika]

Uh, there's been more than a few advocating signing a bunch of free agents in an effort to contend in 2020.

 

Uh, not really.

 

A good number of people are advocating making a number of short and mid-term financial investments (some even argue for bigger long-term) in the team this offseason in order to accelerate the (hopefully) pending competitive window and begin the creating of a winning environment.

 

That's wildly different than "we suck and we have to spend right now to fix it"

 

It's also different than "signing a bunch of free agents in an effort to contend in 2020." Nobody really thinks that bringing in a bunch of free agents, even really good ones, would do much more than give the team a remote playoff chance in 2020. The effort is not to contend in 2020, it's more specifically to do the first thing I said and "accelerate the (hopefully) pending competitive window and begin the creating of a winning environment."

Edited December 1, 2019 by Laika

[Maico450]

Every fan wants a winning team sooner, than later. If you can improve this team now, without screwing up the future, why not? The key is making sensible deals. Getting players

of reasonable age with mid length contracts, or older vets on short term contracts. avoid the big $$ long term contracts that can cripple a team in the future.

[saskjayfan]

Uh, there's been more than a few advocating signing a bunch of free agents in an effort to contend in 2020.

 

I certainly hope we banned anyone who even considered advocating for a team that might contend in 2020.

[Dick_Pole]

I certainly hope we banned anyone who even considered advocating for a team that might contend in 2020.

 

I hope they banned everyone who already writes off the possibility of contention in 2020. On December 1. With a $70 million payroll. Several developing young players slotted into starting roles next year at league minimum. And a ton of quality free agents available.

 

I would think that at this stage at least everyone can agree that it is far too early to make any reasonable projections for next year. Even coming out of the spring with a set roster the variance in expectations could be huge given the reliance on young players.

[BTS]

The Blue Jays aren't a team without talent. Vlad, Biggio, Bichette, LGJ, and the catchers are one of the highest-upside young cores in the game. It would be completely absurd for that core to push hard this year only to see the team win 82 games because Ross Atkins didn't have the balls to add talent this offseason. It would be a waste of a prime year of control of multiple good young players, and a waste of a year that could have been spent rebuilding fan interest. If the core thrives, we have a team that is playing meaningful baseball games all year. And if the core fails, the team has much bigger problems than a few short- or medium-term FA contracts signed this offseason.

 

In the last few years alone we've seen the Cubs and Braves contend a year before people thought their rebuilds were finished, the Brewers, Rays and A's build elite teams that nobody thought would be elite, and the Twins topple the Indians as the best team in the ALC, seemingly out of nowhere. The idea that Toronto's core isn't good enough to supplement with FA talent doesn't make any sense to me.

[Jimcanuck]

The Blue Jays aren't a team without talent. Vlad, Biggio, Bichette, LGJ, and the catchers are one of the highest-upside young cores in the game. It would be completely absurd for that core to push hard this year only to see the team win 82 games because Ross Atkins didn't have the balls to add talent this offseason. It would be a waste of a prime year of control of multiple good young players, and a waste of a year that could have been spent rebuilding fan interest. If the core thrives, we have a team that is playing meaningful baseball games all year. And if the core fails, the team has much bigger problems than a few short- or medium-term FA contracts signed this offseason.

 

In the last few years alone we've seen the Cubs and Braves contend a year before people thought their rebuilds were finished, the Brewers, Rays and A's build elite teams that nobody thought would be elite, and the Twins topple the Indians as the best team in the ALC, seemingly out of nowhere. The idea that Toronto's core isn't good enough to supplement with FA talent doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I gets you.

 

The only opinion divergence really, is how far to go in signing free agents this offseason. Some suggest caution and focus on 2021 and beyond, others say contention in 2020 could happen and to be aggressive in FA signings. For me, contention in 2020 is quite improbable and I'm not making a single decision with this goal in mind.

 

And yes, NJH, some have advocated to go as far as buy a 2020 contender through free agency.

[Bobthe4th]

The Blue Jays aren't a team without talent. Vlad, Biggio, Bichette, LGJ, and the catchers are one of the highest-upside young cores in the game. It would be completely absurd for that core to push hard this year only to see the team win 82 games because Ross Atkins didn't have the balls to add talent this offseason. It would be a waste of a prime year of control of multiple good young players, and a waste of a year that could have been spent rebuilding fan interest. If the core thrives, we have a team that is playing meaningful baseball games all year. And if the core fails, the team has much bigger problems than a few short- or medium-term FA contracts signed this offseason.

 

In the last few years alone we've seen the Cubs and Braves contend a year before people thought their rebuilds were finished, the Brewers, Rays and A's build elite teams that nobody thought would be elite, and the Twins topple the Indians as the best team in the ALC, seemingly out of nowhere. The idea that Toronto's core isn't good enough to supplement with FA talent doesn't make any sense to me.

 

There’s a big difference between supplementing the core, and recklessly overspending to try to move the competitive window up a year.

[saskjayfan]

I gets you.

 

The only opinion divergence really, is how far to go in signing free agents this offseason. Some suggest caution and focus on 2021 and beyond, others say contention in 2020 could happen and to be aggressive in FA signings. For me, contention in 2020 is quite improbable and I'm not making a single decision with this goal in mind.

 

And yes, NJH, some have advocated to go as far as buy a 2020 contender through free agency.

 

We need a quality starting pitcher. Who are you targeting in 2021? The market is a lot weaker.

[Jimcanuck]

We need a quality starting pitcher. Who are you targeting in 2021? The market is a lot weaker.

 

I'd be trying to sign a Wheeler or Keuchel - 2nd tier guy. And take a flier on a bounceback candidate like Wacha or Porcello.

 

Too early to look at potential 2021 free agents, that's a discussion for later. Because who knows, Pearson could be elevated and immediately pitch like a top 50 pitcher, and SWR could dominate and force his way up.

[Laika]

Okay, this is the dumbest f***ing thread ever then.

 

Bob wants to "supplement the core" and Jim wants to target free agent SPs this offseason BUT BUT BUT both of them want to play the semantics of opinion game to somehow position themselves as having unique or more enlightened stances than the rest.

 

In other words, nobody really disagrees but everybody wants to pretend that they are smarter than everyone else.

 

Supplement the core but don't say that you're trying to fix the team!!!

Sign Wheeler but don't say that you want to win in 2020!!!

 

Delete this thread and Jim and Bob's accounts. f*** you all.

[Jimcanuck]

Okay, this is the dumbest f***ing thread ever then.

 

Bob wants to "supplement the core" and Jim wants to target free agent SPs this offseason BUT BUT BUT both of them want to play the semantics of opinion game to somehow position themselves as having unique or more enlightened stances than the rest.

 

In other words, nobody really disagrees but everybody wants to pretend that they are smarter than everyone else.

 

Supplement the core but don't say that you're trying to fix the team!!!

Sign Wheeler but don't say that you want to win in 2020!!!

 

Delete this thread and Jim and Bob's accounts. f*** you all.

 

Hey at least we are expressing an opinion and not attacking other posters. If you were GM, what would YOU do?

[Laika]

Hey at least we are expressing an opinion and not attacking other posters. If you were GM, what would YOU do?

 

Trade you to some other team’s fanbase

[Bobthe4th]

We need a quality starting pitcher. Who are you targeting in 2021? The market is a lot weaker.

 

Stroman obviously!

 

Seriously though, there's always a trade if we can't get what we need in free agency.

[Jimcanuck]

Trade you to some other team’s fanbase

 

C'mon don't be afraid. Stick your neck out, buddy boy.

[saskjayfan]

I'd be trying to sign a Wheeler or Keuchel - 2nd tier guy. And take a flier on a bounceback candidate like Wacha or Porcello.

 

Too early to look at potential 2021 free agents, that's a discussion for later. Because who knows, Pearson could be elevated and immediately pitch like a top 50 pitcher, and SWR could dominate and force his way up.

 

It's not too early to look at 2021 free agents. If our management doesn't have an eye towards what is coming available in the next couple years, they should be fired. I'm sure they do however.

 

Wheeler is probably going to get close to 5 and 100. Keuchel is more of a 3 and 39 guy. They aren't even in the same category. I would love to get Wheeler and take a flyer on Wood or Pineda. Cole and Strasburg are the elite free agents. Ryu, Bumgarner, Wheeler are in the next category.

 

Pearson could struggle at the MLB level and SWR could struggle at advanced levels in the minors. Where is the team going to be heading into 2021 if that's the case and they sign no one this year?

[TheHurl]

Does everyone remember all those championships that Bryce Harper brought the Phillies, Machado brought the Padres, Cano brought the Mariners, ARod brought the Rangers, Pujols brought the Angels, Fielder brought the Tigers, Grienke brought the DBacks. Yet every year we hear about how free agent stars will make your team a champion. At least Scherzer and Price got rings to keep the movement going. If the Jays signed no one this year but got 2 extensions done with the core talent I'd say it was a successful off-season (even though I don't think Bichette or Vladdy will talk extension.

[L54]

They have like $70M on the payroll lol. To think the Jays can’t add ~40M is absurd. Another 14M comes off the books next year too.

[saskjayfan]

Does everyone remember all those championships that Bryce Harper brought the Phillies, Machado brought the Padres, Cano brought the Mariners, ARod brought the Rangers, Pujols brought the Angels, Fielder brought the Tigers, Grienke brought the DBacks. Yet every year we hear about how free agent stars will make your team a champion. At least Scherzer and Price got rings to keep the movement going. If the Jays signed no one this year but got 2 extensions done with the core talent I'd say it was a successful off-season (even though I don't think Bichette or Vladdy will talk extension.

 

The Nationals signed Scherzer and Corbin, the Sox signed JD Martinez too. Rattling off teams that signed free agents and didn't win the World Series seems silly. There's 30 teams and one wins a world series every year.

 

How many teams win a World Series without taking on salary through free agency or via trade?

[Dick_Pole]

C'mon don't be afraid. Stick your neck out, buddy boy.

 

Okay, speculating on what's inside Atkins' head or which free agent might want to come to Toronto is pure guesswork. It has nothing to do with baseball IQ any more than playing the lottery would be. Saying that Toronto SHOULD be in contention for useful free agents to try to speed up the competitive window is different than saying Toronto WILL sign a certain free agent.

 

But yeah, Jim reacting like this to someone else's criticism is not surprising. Yet the poor gimp from Mississauga was the one banished from here. Wheeler or Keuchel should improve this team and be targets. No s***. So should Cole and Moustakas as well as any number of trade targets.

[Laika]

C'mon don't be afraid. Stick your neck out, buddy boy.

 

Not surprising but you've missed the point entirely.

[Jimcanuck]

It's not too early to look at 2021 free agents. If our management doesn't have an eye towards what is coming available in the next couple years, they should be fired. I'm sure they do however.

 

Wheeler is probably going to get close to 5 and 100. Keuchel is more of a 3 and 39 guy. They aren't even in the same category. I would love to get Wheeler and take a flyer on Wood or Pineda. Cole and Strasburg are the elite free agents. Ryu, Bumgarner, Wheeler are in the next category.

 

Pearson could struggle at the MLB level and SWR could struggle at advanced levels in the minors. Where is the team going to be heading into 2021 if that's the case and they sign no one this year?

 

Wheeler is 29, Keuchel 31. 11.5 WAR for Wheeler last 5 years, 18 for Keuchel. Allowing for Wheeler's injury absence, the gap between the two is not great. I put them in the same tier.

[saskjayfan]

Wheeler is 29, Keuchel 31. 11.5 WAR for Wheeler last 5 years, 18 for Keuchel. Allowing for Wheeler's injury absence, the gap between the two is not great. I put them in the same tier.

 

That's your evaluation. If Wheeler ends up getting 60 mil more on his contract, the GM's in the MLB will disagree with your assessment. Time will tell to see how close their contract values are..lol.

[Jimcanuck]

That's your evaluation. If Wheeler ends up getting 60 mil more on his contract, the GM's in the MLB will disagree with your assessment. Time will tell to see how close their contract values are..lol.

 

For sure Wheeler will get more, but the gap between the two is not as great as you are suggesting.

[Jimcanuck]

Not surprising but you've missed the point entirely.

 

Haven't missed any point. I'm still curious on what your strategy would be if you were Atkins.

[BTS]

I just looked at Keuchel's FG depth chart projection. He should get more than Cole.

[glory]

I think the 3/39 prediction for Keuchel is way too low. He should be able to get at least 4 years from some team, at a higher AAV.

[Jimcanuck]

I think the 3/39 prediction for Keuchel is way too low. He should be able to get at least 4 years from some team, at a higher AAV.

 

He definitely could be a good value signing who could return Buehrle type numbers for the next few years.

[saskjayfan]

I think the 3/39 prediction for Keuchel is way too low. He should be able to get at least 4 years from some team, at a higher AAV.

 

I just went off mlbtraderumors projections. Regardless, there will be a significant difference in both total dollars and AAV for Keuchel and Wheeler. Given that Wheeler is 2 and half years younger and our best shot at contention is a couple years from now, Wheeler makes more sense for the Jays.

[Spanky99]

Okay, this is the dumbest f***ing thread ever then.

 

Bob wants to "supplement the core" and Jim wants to target free agent SPs this offseason BUT BUT BUT both of them want to play the semantics of opinion game to somehow position themselves as having unique or more enlightened stances than the rest.

 

In other words, nobody really disagrees but everybody wants to pretend that they are smarter than everyone else.

 

Supplement the core but don't say that you're trying to fix the team!!!

Sign Wheeler but don't say that you want to win in 2020!!!

 

Delete this thread and Jim and Bob's accounts. f*** you all.

 

Bwahahaha... Gold!

[Grant77]

Which is exactly why it’ll take over $20m AAV to get him to come here - he’ll get $20m (or close to) offers from better, more attractive destinations.

 

Besides, Wheeler on his own does not equal an over .500 team this season for us.

 

I didn't make any predictions about our record, but we need to show our young players that we are serious about getting better if we want them to be motivated to play well and stay with the Blue Jays. Continuing to wallow in a losing culture will only harm their development.

 

Wheeler is one of many players we could target. Make the best offer possible and see what happens. There's no reason to believe that he doesn't consider the Blue Jays an attractive destination.