Charlie Montoyo Egregious Mistake Tracking Thread

[Ex Player]

Go ask Yasmany Tomas how that's working out for him (https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=17171&position=OF)

 

or Adam Duvall or Eric Thames

Yasmani had season ending surgery in 2017. I have no idea why he missed 2018 and is now in the minors because I dont follow him closely. He's making $68.5 mill over 6 years however, so I think its working out very well for him

 

Duvall sucked last year and he was rightfully sent down. Thames only had one 30-HR year in 2017, in 2018 he only played in 96 games and didnt hit anywhere close to 30. So the examples you are giving are poor.

 

As I said before, if you can hit around 30 homers/yr steady you will always have a job in MLB

[LGBJ29]

Go ask Yasmany Tomas how that's working out for him (https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=17171&position=OF)

 

or Adam Duvall or Eric Thames

 

I don't think he's saying hit 30 Home Runs once and you have a job in the MLB for life, but if you're consistently hitting 30 then you'll have a job somewhere

[DigitalRock]

I don't think he's saying hit 30 Home Runs once and you have a job in the MLB for life, but if you're consistently hitting 30 then you'll have a job somewhere

 

That was obvious but seems folks on this forum have reading issues. It's like in the GDT, if you mention someone had a bad AB....later in the game they have a great AB and get a hit, some clown (Spanky or someone else) will bring up your older post as if you meant the player was destined to have a bad AB for life lol.

[saskjayfan]

He's slashing .248/.302/.467. League average this year is .244/.319/.418 but that includes NL teams and their pitchers hitting. Rowdy is basically an average bat. Could get to solidly above average but even then he's one of the slowest runners in the league and a poor fielder.

 

His bat is 8% better than league average. It’s his rookie year. The way you are defining him is ridiculous. His power and exit velocities are not average. He may or may not develop but his bat could easily be 30% better than league average. He’s a guy you see trying to make adjustments. I don’t think I can tell you what rowdy is until I see 1200 plate appearances.

[Brownie19]

I don't think he's saying hit 30 Home Runs once and you have a job in the MLB for life, but if you're consistently hitting 30 then you'll have a job somewhere

 

OK - fair enough. This started with a statement that he's on pace for 25 to 30 HRs and based on that, he wouldn't be an 'average' hitter...I tried to point out that HRs are not a good way to tell how good a hitter is (Duvall hit 31 HRs in 2017, while being a below average hitter. We can go back to the days of Tony Batista, Dante Bichette and Joe Carter or more examples if you'd like). Now the argument has morphed into someone who hits 30 HRs a year every year (I did overlook that). I'm kinda done with this though. Tellez needs to drop the K's, increase the BB's and become a guy who can post wRC+'s of 120+ to become an everyday regular. I hope he does.

[Ex Player]

I don't think he's saying hit 30 Home Runs once and you have a job in the MLB for life, but if you're consistently hitting 30 then you'll have a job somewhere

Exactly. Plus you also have to have a decent average of around .250 or so.

 

Tellez is unlikely to get anywhere close to 100 ribbies though because the guys in front of him aren't getting on base much

[Olerud363]

Exactly. Plus you also have to have a decent average of around .250 or so.

 

Tellez is unlikely to get anywhere close to 100 ribbies though because the guys in front of him aren't getting on base much

 

If he hits fourth behind Vlad and Smoak he'll have guys on.

[Ex Player]

If he hits fourth behind Vlad and Smoak he'll have guys on

I still think he'll be hardpressed to knock in 100, but I hope I'm wrong

[Terminator]

Personally, I'm still just as hopeful as ever that Jansen becomes a star and that a couple of Drury, Hernandez, Gurriel, Tellez, and McKinney become average players.

 

I'll give you Jansen. Dude was a Top 40 prospect and his defense is better than advertised. His bat turns around and I agree, he could become a Top 5 Catcher. We're on the same page with him.

 

But the other guys? How are you "as hopeful as ever" that 2 of those 4 become average players? Are you basing that off of anything? Maybe Tellez?

 

I know that a season like this one tends to bring out the worst...in some of the best posters.

 

Oh come on get out of here with that preachy ******** lol! I'm not whining just for the sake of it. I'm stat scouting/stat casting them all the best I can. Just not seeing what I like and what it means for next year. Steamer/Zips/Statcast all say these guys suck. If you provide evidence otherwise I'd love to hear it. Cheers.

[Olerud363]

Tellez could be interesting. He had the stats you would expect out of a middle of the order prospect until 2017. He had the issue with his mother's sickness that year and the next, which apparently effected him quite a bit. His k/bb ratio in Buffalo was still good.

 

His swing looks pretty good to me. My background in swingology is listening to Buck and Pat tell me that guys like Will Clark and Olerud have a great swing, and to my eye Tellez looks like he has that classic left handers swing. Also Pat and Buck tell me he's a big strong guy. And he seems to hit the ball hard and in the air. I am guessing (guessing) by his aaa stats that maybe he had issues with ground ball rate in the minors. Stats look like big strong guy hits ball on ground... Maybe a mechanical issue which he's since fixed.

 

On the other hand his k/bb ratio isn't great in the majors so far, even though it was OK in the minors, and he probably needs to get a bit better before he's a piece on a contending team.

[wamco]

That was obvious but seems folks on this forum have reading issues. It's like in the GDT, if you mention someone had a bad AB....later in the game they have a great AB and get a hit, some clown (Spanky or someone else) will bring up your older post as if you meant the player was destined to have a bad AB for life lol.

 

-well, he’s just a moron

[glory]

I'll give you Jansen. Dude was a Top 40 prospect and his defense is better than advertised. His bat turns around and I agree, he could become a Top 5 Catcher. We're on the same page with him.

 

But the other guys? How are you "as hopeful as ever" that 2 of those 4 become average players? Are you basing that off of anything? Maybe Tellez?

 

 

 

Oh come on get out of here with that preachy ******** lol! I'm not whining just for the sake of it. I'm stat scouting/stat casting them all the best I can. Just not seeing what I like and what it means for next year. Steamer/Zips/Statcast all say these guys suck. If you provide evidence otherwise I'd love to hear it. Cheers.

 

Agreed completely with both these points. Jansen was a top prospect in baseball, had great minor league performance with good indicators for success (BB/K in particular), and is in his rookie season. You can be patient with players of that ilk. There's a pretty strong chance Jansen can become a good MLB starting catcher, if not a really good one. The others are just wishful thinking. Tellez with the power he has shown so far might be more interesting than I thought originally, but get out of here with McKinney, Teoscar, Drury, Gurriel, etc. Brian Cashman is the king of taking undervalued talent and helping them grow as players, and he moved Drury as quickly as he could once Andujar panned out. What makes anyone have more faith in the Jays helping him than the Yankees?

 

I realize people want to play devil's advocate and be positive even in bad situations. I get it. I do that too some times. None of us want to hate on what the Jays are doing. But some times it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, etc.

[Laika]

If it runs like a duck, it's TEOSCAR HERNANDEZ!

[Spanky99]

That was obvious but seems folks on this forum have reading issues. It's like in the GDT, if you mention someone had a bad AB....later in the game they have a great AB and get a hit, some clown (Spanky or someone else) will bring up your older post as if you meant the player was destined to have a bad AB for life lol.

 

-well, he’s just a moron

 

[Terminator]

I have long thought that Rowdy's ceiling was basically Yonder Alonso.

 

I think I am prepared to move that up a bit at this point. He clearly has way more raw power than Alonso.

 

If he can find a way to reel in that MLB K rate (MiLB rate was not that bad) then I could see a few 2 WAR seasons in his 20s.

 

He's trending up! 0.7 WAR in his first 65 MLB games is really nice for a prospect of his calibre. He has a freaking .352 career wOBA! All of that while suffering through contact problems that might be correctable.

 

Yeah he has definitely beat my expectations. Should be a decent player for us. Problem is, no defense power guys like him go for about 4 million bucks on the FA market right now so he's probably only providing surplus until he hits Arb. Hopefully his plate discipline issues resolves and he gets a little extra OBP to go with that power.

[Brownie19]

Brian Cashman is the king of taking undervalued talent and helping them grow as players, and he moved Drury as quickly as he could once Andujar panned out. What makes anyone have more faith in the Jays helping him than the Yankees?

 

Don't forget that Cashman gave up some legit pieces to get Drury in the first place.

[Terminator]

Bat Biggio leadoff you coward

[Ex Player]

I'm assuming they're going to play Biggio at 2nd base, which means Nerd Power is SOL

[FrozenRopes]

Has anyone seen anything they like out of Montoyo? He had a little spat with Stroman.

[wk680]

Has anyone seen anything they like out of Montoyo? He had a little spat with Stroman.

 

I can't think of anything. Never thought I would actually miss Gibby ..........

[Deadpool]

I can't think of anything. Never thought I would actually miss Gibby ..........

 

Gibby was the best manager the Jays have had since Cox. If you ddin't realize that, you need to re-evaluate.

[Boxcar]

 

Is he wrong?

[Spanky99]

That was obvious but seems folks on this forum have reading issues. It's like in the GDT, if you mention someone had a bad AB....later in the game they have a great AB and get a hit, some clown (Spanky or someone else) will bring up your older post as if you meant the player was destined to have a bad AB for life lol.

 

Is he wrong?

 

[wk680]

Gibby was the best manager the Jays have had since Cox. If you ddin't realize that, you need to re-evaluate.

 

Cito Gaston: 2 World Series wins

 

Bobby Cox: 1 World Series win (in a bajillion opportunities with perennial great teams)

 

so remind me why Bobby is so great !?

[Olerud363]

Gibby was the best manager the Jays have had since Cox. If you ddin't realize that, you need to re-evaluate.

 

Why exactly is he not here?? My understanding is that the only reason he was let go is because they didn't think he'd work well with young players. There was some lip service that Gibby didn't want to go through a rebuild.. but I don't know if I buy that. Management wanted their guy to develop the young players.

 

So can a manager and coaching staff have any effect on young players?? If so in what ways??

 

1. Instruction and preparation - hitting mechanics, pitching mechanics, defensive drills.

2. Pitch sequencing - Preparing pitchers on how to approach each matchup in a game (the information will come from the analytics department, coaches need to get the information to the player)

3. Preparing hitters for that days matchups. - Analytics department provides informaiton on what to expect form every matchup, as above coaches need to convey the information to the players.

4. Optimizing matchups - For young players you may want to prioritize experience vs optimizing every matchup (ie at this point you may not want to Platoon any of the young players)... but still, when young players are going to be getting an off day 1 week anyway, you may want to schedule it at the best time.

5. Choosing which young player to play - IE Billy Mckinney, or Dwight Smith JR or Cavan Biggio or ...

 

Through about 1/3 of a season the results have been terrible. That doesn't mean the process is terrible. It could be just luck, or just the wrong young players (so far)... but still... the results couldn't be any worse at his point.

[Deadpool]

Cito Gaston: 2 World Series wins

 

Bobby Cox: 1 World Series win (in a bajillion opportunities with perennial great teams)

 

so remind me why Bobby is so great !?

 

...

 

I don't even know how to even with this. This is a level of obtuse that my brain literally cannot process.

[DigitalRock]

Why exactly is he not here?? My understanding is that the only reason he was let go is because they didn't think he'd work well with young players. There was some lip service that Gibby didn't want to go through a rebuild.. but I don't know if I buy that. Management wanted their guy to develop the young players.

 

So can a manager and coaching staff have any effect on young players?? If so in what ways??

 

1. Instruction and preparation - hitting mechanics, pitching mechanics, defensive drills.

2. Pitch sequencing - Preparing pitchers on how to approach each matchup in a game (the information will come from the analytics department, coaches need to get the information to the player)

3. Preparing hitters for that days matchups. - Analytics department provides informaiton on what to expect form every matchup, as above coaches need to convey the information to the players.

4. Optimizing matchups - For young players you may want to prioritize experience vs optimizing every matchup (ie at this point you may not want to Platoon any of the young players)... but still, when young players are going to be getting an off day 1 week anyway, you may want to schedule it at the best time.

5. Choosing which young player to play - IE Billy Mckinney, or Dwight Smith JR or Cavan Biggio or ...

 

Through about 1/3 of a season the results have been terrible. That doesn't mean the process is terrible. It could be just luck, or just the wrong young players (so far)... but still... the results couldn't be any worse at his point.

 

Didn't he say he did not want to be a part of a rebuild?

[FrozenRopes]

Why exactly is he not here?? My understanding is that the only reason he was let go is because they didn't think he'd work well with young players. There was some lip service that Gibby didn't want to go through a rebuild.. but I don't know if I buy that. Management wanted their guy to develop the young players.

 

So can a manager and coaching staff have any effect on young players?? If so in what ways??

 

1. Instruction and preparation - hitting mechanics, pitching mechanics, defensive drills.

2. Pitch sequencing - Preparing pitchers on how to approach each matchup in a game (the information will come from the analytics department, coaches need to get the information to the player)

3. Preparing hitters for that days matchups. - Analytics department provides informaiton on what to expect form every matchup, as above coaches need to convey the information to the players.

4. Optimizing matchups - For young players you may want to prioritize experience vs optimizing every matchup (ie at this point you may not want to Platoon any of the young players)... but still, when young players are going to be getting an off day 1 week anyway, you may want to schedule it at the best time.

5. Choosing which young player to play - IE Billy Mckinney, or Dwight Smith JR or Cavan Biggio or ...

 

Through about 1/3 of a season the results have been terrible. That doesn't mean the process is terrible. It could be just luck, or just the wrong young players (so far)... but still... the results couldn't be any worse at his point.

 

Gibby was removed because Managers have a shorter shelf life then GMs. When a GM is not great, they make more managerial moves to cover for their issues. Thats why a guy like Cox was in ATL for so long. Good GM.

 

Teams with great GMs and good coaches last longer because the bigger issues arise a lot less.

 

Toronto has below avg GMs so I don't think Montoyo sticks unless these youngsters outshine their GM and coach.

[P2F]

Cito Gaston: 2 World Series wins

 

Bobby Cox: 1 World Series win (in a bajillion opportunities with perennial great teams)

 

so remind me why Bobby is so great !?

 

LMAO

 

cf

[wk680]

...

 

I don't even know how to even with this. This is a level of obtuse that my brain literally cannot process.

 

Yeah I know you guys on here have a hate on for Gaston, but you can't just say the Jays won those 2 championships in spite of him, or whatever the argument is. Winning is not just about having a good team on paper.

 

I repeat my question, what did Bobby Cox do that made him so superior to Gaston as a manager?

 

ETA: it was over 25 years ago, SO you can not judge how he managed the team then by the way the game is played today