Russell Martin traded to dodgers.

[Jimcanuck]

Imagine watching this team for Pillar.

 

Pillar is going to lead off this season. Finally will get his chance!

[Pendleton]

No, it was most of the forum. Or at least most of the people in the conversation at the time. Jim advocated trading him in a deal like this, Boxy jumped on him, and then a bunch of people piled on.

 

Edit: Actually is was saskjsysfan2 who suggested this exact trade and got dragged for like 3 pages by the hive.

 

My thoughts on this trade pretty much line up with my stance in that thread. I really don't see how the Jays benefit much from this deal.

[jays4life19]

My thoughts on this trade pretty much line up with my stance in that thread. I really don't see how the Jays benefit much from this deal.

 

But how would they benefit more by keeping him? The only argument that could me made was the mentor angle but that's already been shown Martin was not really interested in doing that while Luke is going to hold Jansen nutsack if it means him sticking on the 25 man roster.

[Pendleton]

But how would they benefit more by keeping him? The only argument that could me made was the mentor angle but that's already been shown Martin was not really interested in doing that while Luke is going to hold Jansen nutsack if it means him sticking on the 25 man roster.

 

I don't see much value in the return, or in keeping Martin. I'm not upset nor happy about this, because eating the majority of his contract to get a depth arm and a longshot prospect seems about as pointless as having Martin around.

[Krylian]

I remember a lot of people s***ing on the idea of trading Martin +15M for a couple low-ranked prospects a month or two ago. Most of the forum IIRC.

 

Not me. I'm really liking that they're starting to clean house.

 

I know I've been a little hard of the Shat, but really my main criticism stems from that I wanting the trigger pulled on the dismantling a year or two ago. The writing was on the wall and the delay cost us a good return for Donaldson. Aside from that, I don't really have too many problems with what they've done.

[DigitalRock]

A small sample from the Jays FB group

 

It's always a good laugh to read Facebook or any online comments to see how stupid Gen Pop is.

[Maico450]

My thoughts on this trade pretty much line up with my stance in that thread. I really don't see how the Jays benefit much from this deal.

 

I don't see how the Jays could have benefitted more, than this trade. Martin was clogging up the catching depth, there are 2 better catchers currently available with 1 more close.

Both teams appeared to agree that Martins true value was 3.6 million. So what do you get back for a 36 year old mediocre catcher? 2 minor league players that have a bit of upside, while not requiring to be put on the 40 man roster. How do you top that?

[Krylian]

I don't see much value in the return, or in keeping Martin. I'm not upset nor happy about this, because eating the majority of his contract to get a depth arm and a longshot prospect seems about as pointless as having Martin around.

 

I see no point to having Martin around. I think Brito has the chance to be a bit more intriguing than some others do... And considering Martin's non-existent value, that's all that could reasonably be expected. What's the alternative? Have Martin here, taking up playing time from Jansen? I'd rather give Martin a shot at a ring, and I'd rather give Jansen a full year under his belt to grow as an every day player. Let the kids play. Let's see if they drink or swim. Let's see if we have the makings of a core and if not, we can adjust the plan.

[Pendleton]

I see no point to having Martin around. I think Brito has the chance to be a bit more intriguing than some others do... And considering Martin's non-existent value, that's all that could reasonably be expected. What's the alternative? Have Martin here, taking up playing time from Jansen? I'd rather give Martin a shot at a ring, and I'd rather give Jansen a full year under his belt to grow as an every day player. Let the kids play. Let's see if they drink or swim. Let's see if we have the makings of a core and if not, we can adjust the plan.

 

The alternative would be to give Martin back up playtime behind Jansen, and wait for a more beneficial return mid season. Certainly won't argue that Jansen should be the starter either way.

 

Maybe I'm undervaluing Brito, but just feels like if this was the best we could do while eating the majority of the contract in the off season, maybe it would have been better to wait and see if mid season injuries could generate a better market.

[gruber92]

My thoughts on this trade pretty much line up with my stance in that thread. I really don't see how the Jays benefit much from this deal.

 

We save $3.6mil while opening the door for our top catching prospect at a time when the team won't realistically compete for another few years. The mentor angle was exposed as a non factor. Why keep Martin around and swallow the full $20mil?

[Pendleton]

We save $3.6mil while opening the door for our top catching prospect at a time when the team won't realistically compete for another few years. The mentor angle was exposed as a non factor. Why keep Martin around and swallow the full $20mil?

 

I don't buy that it opens the door for the Jansen, I think he was destined to be the starter this year regardless of who was backing him up. The rest I'm not really arguing, all I'm really saying is that I would need to either see more significant savings or a better return before the needle moves from indifferent to happy. I can't help but wonder if a mid season injury may have convinced a team to take on more contract and/or give up more in return with less options available.

 

My original statement of not seeing any benefit should be amended to say that the benefit seems rather minimal.

[Laika]

I remember a lot of people s***ing on the idea of trading Martin +15M for a couple low-ranked prospects a month or two ago. Most of the forum IIRC.

 

links

[Krylian]

We save $3.6mil while opening the door for our top catching prospect at a time when the team won't realistically compete for another few years. The mentor angle was exposed as a non factor. Why keep Martin around and swallow the full $20mil?

 

Agreed. I'd like to punt a lot of the veterans out the door. They held on to Donaldson longer than they should. How did that work out? Just move on already.

[Jimcanuck]

Moving Martin opened a spot on the 40 man, allowing Jays to keep Pompey or whoever is at the bottom of the pile. It is pretty clear Pompey is going to get some MLB reps this year.

[glory]

Brito is the type of prospect that if he puts up numbers in A+ and AA, you trade him in a package for a good vet. Accumulating prospects is not only to see if you can find players to fill big league spots, but also to use as currency in trades. AA's problem was he only used them as currency in trades with one or two exceptions. Shatkins is taking the much more beneficial route, but it will also lead to some 'prospects for vets' trades in the future. Hell, Dave Stewart got Dawel Lugo from us for Cliff Pennington, and then the D-Backs used Lugo to get a 2-3 war out of JD Martinez for half a season when they were making a playoff push. Some times these high risk low minors types are useful for that reason.

[jays4life19]

I don't buy that it opens the door for the Jansen, I think he was destined to be the starter this year regardless of who was backing him up. The rest I'm not really arguing, all I'm really saying is that I would need to either see more significant savings or a better return before the needle moves from indifferent to happy. I can't help but wonder if a mid season injury may have convinced a team to take on more contract and/or give up more in return with less options available.

 

My original statement of not seeing any benefit should be amended to say that the benefit seems rather minimal.

 

At least that's a reasonable opinion unlike the facebook comments "omgzzz worst trade ever". like wut.

[Jimcanuck]

Brito is the type of prospect that if he puts up numbers in A+ and AA, you trade him in a package for a good vet. Accumulating prospects is not only to see if you can find players to fill big league spots, but also to use as currency in trades. AA's problem was he only used them as currency in trades with one or two exceptions. Shatkins is taking the much more beneficial route, but it will also lead to some 'prospects for vets' trades in the future. Hell, Dave Stewart got Dawel Lugo from us for Cliff Pennington, and then the D-Backs used Lugo to get a 2-3 war out of JD Martinez for half a season when they were making a playoff push. Some times these high risk low minors types are useful for that reason.

 

Isn't virtually every prospect that type, outside of the Vlad's and Eloy's?

[glory]

Isn't virtually every prospect that type, outside of the Vlad's and Eloy's?

 

Maybe, but depends on perceived upside, age, etc. Brito is a 19 year old in low A with power potential and defensive value up the middle. He's not a top prospect now, and may never will be one, but I think he's flippable a year or two from now if performance is there in the minors, especially if he can stick at short. I wouldn't say the same thing about Sopko due to his age and lack of upside. It's good to have these boom or busts in the minors, especially if you're getting them for someone you don't need anyway like Martin.

[Inklink]

Damn, the amount of cash just pissed away to get Tulo and Martin out of here. I just want a fraction of that.

[Laika]

Brito was roughly a 70th percentile prospect in the Pioneer League last year. His chances of having an MLB outcome are probably extremely slim.

 

He is about as valuable as Dominic Abbadessa. Maybe you can justify him on the organization top 50 list, but top 30 seems aggressively dumb.

 

https://www.radioscouts.com/blog/stat-scouting-the-minors-z-scores-for-rookie-advanced-hitters

[Spanky99]

links

 

Starts about here, obviously a lot has changed since then, hard tank in the midst. I'm fine with this trade even if it were to simply appease Martin.

 

https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/8092-General-2018-Blue-Jays-Discussion-Thread?p=1305475&viewfull=1#post1305475

[Laika]

Starts about here, obviously a lot has changed since then, hard tank in the midst. I'm fine with this trade even if it were to simply appease Martin.

 

https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/8092-General-2018-Blue-Jays-Discussion-Thread?p=1305475&viewfull=1#post1305475

 

Sometimes I wish I was a more serious poster.

 

Sopko is the key to justification for me. There's actual value to an MLB-ready SP depth arm like him, with full control, even if the upside is limited.

 

If it was two Ronny Britos coming back I would not like this much

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

Damn, the amount of cash just pissed away to get Tulo and Martin out of here. I just want a fraction of that.

 

Not pissed away they were gonna spend it

Regardless if they were here or not here !

 

In what is a very very non compete year

For the Jays !

 

No complete the mission couple more vets

Need to go still ... Dont half ass it .. all the way now Jays Morales, Pillar ,Smoak, Stroman,Sanchez and Giles and Tepera

Though he does not cost much ummm

Bye Bye mon cowboy you outta here !

[Spanky99]

Sometimes I wish I was a more serious poster.

 

Sopko is the key to justification for me. There's actual value to an MLB-ready SP depth arm like him, with full control, even if the upside is limited.

 

If it was two Ronny Britos coming back I would not like this much

 

I like Sopko too, don't mind the lottery ticket in Brito either... I'm more of the belief Atkins did Martin a solid and sent him to a contender, while getting a bit of money and assets in return, it isn't a bad trade by any means. Plus that link hardly shows people adamant in not trading Martin.

[saskjayfan]

I like Sopko too, don't mind the lottery ticket in Brito either... I'm more of the belief Atkins did Martin a solid and sent him to a contender, while getting a bit of money and assets in return, it isn't a bad trade by any means. Plus that link hardly shows people adamant in not trading Martin.

 

I like that Russ got moved to a contender. From a Jays perspective they would have got just as good of a return at the deadline as they did right now. I would have preferred to keep Russ to the deadline, because I think a veteran can pass on some knowledge to a young catcher like Jansen. If the goal is to lose as many games as possible and get a high draft pick, this was probably the right move though..lol.

[metafour]

The alternative would be to give Martin back up playtime behind Jansen, and wait for a more beneficial return mid season.

 

A more beneficial return lmao? For half a season of a 36 year old catcher who can't hit at all anymore? You yourself just stated that he's a backup catcher on a team that has no chance at competing, so what exactly do you expect a contender to give you for half a season of a backup defensive catcher? A top prospect? The Marlins can't even find someone to match their asking price for Realmuto, an ELITE catcher in his prime. This is actually more than I expected to get for Martin: a legitimately intriguing young prospect with some pedigree and a swing arm that presents depth at worst. The thing with guys like Sopko and all these other pitchers we've acquired is that if you get enough of them, eventually you find one that actually surpasses whatever "marginal prospect" label they carry.

[Jimcanuck]

A more beneficial return lmao? For half a season of a 36 year old catcher who can't hit at all anymore? You yourself just stated that he's a backup catcher on a team that has no chance at competing, so what exactly do you expect a contender to give you for half a season of a backup defensive catcher? A top prospect? The Marlins can't even find someone to match their asking price for Realmuto, an ELITE catcher in his prime. This is actually more than I expected to get for Martin: a legitimately intriguing young prospect with some pedigree and a swing arm that presents depth at worst. The thing with guys like Sopko and all these other pitchers we've acquired is that if you get enough of them, eventually you find one that actually surpasses whatever "marginal prospect" label they carry.

 

Martin had a career low BABIP of .234 last season. Was hitting it right at guys all season long, unlucky. He gets back to his typical BABIP thats a .230/.330/.400 line

[P2F]

Sometimes I wish I was a more serious poster.

 

Sopko is the key to justification for me. There's actual value to an MLB-ready SP depth arm like him, with full control, even if the upside is limited.

 

If it was two Ronny Britos coming back I would not like this much

 

I feel like Sopko is being undervalued here. On paper, he's at least comparable to recent returns Trent Thornton and Julian Merryweather, and probably better than Jacob Waguespack, who's not completely devoid of intrigue, at least for me.

 

As for the other component of the return, I like that we got one Ronny Brito in this deal. Sure, he's 19 and in Rookie ball, so he probably never makes it to the show, but I'll take a prospect with plus-bat speed and power and plus-plus-defense in trade any day of the week. It might take a swing change to unlock his true offensive potential, but if the Jays can work with him on that and do so successfully, they'll have a legitimate prospect on their hands. Just don't hold your collective breath, I suppose.

[metafour]

Martin had a career low BABIP of .234 last season. Was hitting it right at guys all season long, unlucky. He gets back to his typical BABIP thats a .230/.330/.400 line

 

No, his line drive rate plummeted, his ground ball rate rose, and his IFFB% skyrocketed. His BABIP was s*** because he in fact hit like s***, not because he was rocketing balls right at defenders all season long. Even if you want to play your assumption that he'll go back to "normal" at age 36 after years of beating on his body, then he is what? A ~1.7-1.8 WAR player next year? That's not useless, but by holding onto him until the deadline you are eating half of that production yourself. Then you're back to the reality: no one is giving you anything more than we got for ~0.8-0.9 WAR of Russell Martin, and that is being optimistic. A player like Martin only declines in value, he's not going to do anything in half a season to convince anyone that they need to give up a legitimate prospect to get him. Not in today's MLB where no one wants to part with prospects.

[metafour]

I feel like Sopko is being undervalued here. On paper, he's at least comparable to recent returns Trent Thornton and Julian Merryweather, and probably better than Jacob Waguespack, who's not completely devoid of intrigue, at least for me.

 

You are underrating Merryweather and Thornton significantly. Those guys have much better stuff than Sopko. Both throw harder and both have more legitimate secondary pitches. Thornton was posting well above-average spin rates on his curveball in the AFL for example. Sopko is more of an "average across the board" type.