General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[P2F]

Giles history is a guy who pitches great for teams in the second divsion, where the results dont matter, was great for the Phillies and now the Jays but when the games counted for the astros he imploded with a near 12 ERA in 3 playoff series. Boston NY and the Dodgers pounded on him like he was their personal rented Mule.....no wonder the Astros were desparate to get rid of him

 

Osuna since the trade has been lights out for the Astros

 

That's a neat, little narrative, Mike, but I prefer to use actual FACTS. Big'ns, too.

 

Roberto Osuna: 48 IP, 8.25 K/9, 1.13 BB/9, .218 BABIP, 38.6 GB%, 2.96 FIP, 3.78 xFIP, 15.4 SwStr%

Ken Giles: 41 1/3 IP, 12.19 K9, 1.96 BB/9, .302 BABIP, 48.0 GB%, 2.74 FIP, 2.80 xFIP, 17.8 SwStr%

 

The stat lines are post-trade. Honestly, Osuna has been really good, but Giles has been elite. To deny him of that fact and to ignore the rest of his dominant career because he once punched himself in the face a few times on camera or imploded in a small sample in the playoffs is absurd.

[P2F]

sorry. I guess.... I mistakely assumed you wanted the truth

 

trust me its better here than in the prosportsdaily forum, there they want only glowing positive reports.....the few of us who dare tell the truth get ridiculed

 

My original post was a joke.

[Dick_Pole]

Here's an original idea. The Osuna for Giles trade was a win for BOTH teams. Both of them got rid of a player who was seen as a cancer for them and got a more-than-adequate replacement in return.

[Key22]

That's a neat, little narrative, Mike, but I prefer to use actual FACTS. Big'ns, too.

 

Roberto Osuna: 48 IP, 8.25 K/9, 1.13 BB/9, .218 BABIP, 38.6 GB%, 2.96 FIP, 3.78 xFIP, 15.4 SwStr%

Ken Giles: 41 1/3 IP, 12.19 K9, 1.96 BB/9, .302 BABIP, 48.0 GB%, 2.74 FIP, 2.80 xFIP, 17.8 SwStr%

 

The stat lines are post-trade. Honestly, Osuna has been really good, but Giles has been elite. To deny him of that fact and to ignore the rest of his dominant career because he once punched himself in the face a few times on camera or imploded in a small sample in the playoffs is absurd.

 

One thing to add that when the Astros played the Red Sox - the commenters noted that when the Astros brought in Osuna - the Boston hitters were licking their chops and very happy to see Osuna come in so they could light him up. And they did light him up. He got belted by Boston so this short sample size thing goes both ways.

 

The Jays basically had to trade Osuna and I am still surprised how the Jays got Giles and two other pitching prospects in return - and Giles only has 1 less year of control.

 

I would not be in a huge hurry to trade Giles either - If this Jays brass truly believes we will be a contender by 2021 - then we have to think about keeping some people - we can't replace every single position with prospects. No farm is that good. We have buckets of money freed up. I am not sure closer is that critical but it always seems to be in the playoffs. If you can get Giles at a not insane price he may not be a bad guy to extend - unless we get a a sure fire can't miss all-star in return. Elite closers are not that abundant. And in a playoff facing Judge/Stanton/Sanchez in bottom of the ninth in the deciding game clinging to the 1 run lead do you want Giles or Biagini or some other mediocrity in that spot. Forget WAR - WAR is BS in 1 inning 1 pitcher/batter game on the line situations. I want an Elite arm in that situation not canon fodder. And if I lose with my Elite arm - fine but at least they had to beat us with my best guy on the mound. Playoff teams need elite bullpen arms - gone are the days starters go more than 6-7. The pen may not have high WAR numbers but they always seem pretty critical when the season is on the line.

 

Plus I liked that Giles ripped into that lazy rookie in the spring. A bullpen leader on top of shut down stuff. I like him. If someone wants to trade me a 19 year old Mike Trout - great - but if what I am offered is a 19 year old Randal Grichuk and Thomas Pannone - and let's be realistic - this is what is likely going to be the package we get offered then no thanks.

[Krylian]

funny but I think he was referring to Julian Merryweather a soon to be 28 year old who is coming back from Tommy John Surgery. he is not much of a prospect, twice the indians assigned him to Triple AAA and both times he bombed with a 6.58 era in 16 starts. he gave up 105 hits in 78 innings. he's your typical hard thrower who can make minor leagues look silly but against advanced hitters he gets taken to the woodshed

 

We know exactly who he was referring to.

[BTS]

the yankees traded Chapman who beat up his GF and got gleyber Torres and 3 more prospects including Billy Mckinney.

 

Torres>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Giles and houston was desparate to unload Giles

 

so no its not terrific the Yankees got Torres and 3 others for 3 months of an abuser, atkins traded a 22 year old star closer for a guy the Astros didnt want

 

dont even get me started on Josh Donaldson, turning down Flaherty and Bader over the winter only to trade him for a 27 year old non prospect in merryweather.

 

That’s all great, but Chapman didn’t beat up his girlfriend.

[Ex Player]

Here's an original idea. The Osuna for Giles trade was a win for BOTH teams. Both of them got rid of a player who was seen as a cancer for them and got a more-than-adequate replacement in return

Performance wise I'd say thats true, but Stros got a lightly better deal in that Osuna is 24 and Giles is 28

[Ex Player]

Giles history is a guy who pitches great for teams in the second divsion, where the results dont matter, was great for the Phillies and now the Jays but when the games counted for the astros he imploded with a near 12 ERA in 3 playoff series. Boston NY and the Dodgers pounded on him like he was their personal rented Mule.....no wonder the Astros were desparate to get rid of him

David Price was the same until he redeemed himself in 2018 world series.

 

Past performance isnt always indicative of future performance

[Barkerfan23]

Whatever Atkins has been okay as the GM but he has not made a lot of good deals for Prospects. The happ and oh deal comes to mind

 

The fact that he didnt sell on Happ or Donaldson at the right time is also on him. It's the GMs responsibility to make assessments on the teams chances and convince stakeholders of their assessments

 

The drafting has been very good. However overall I dont have any trust in him to get great prospects for Stroman and Giles similar to what Tampa got from Pittsburgh

[DigitalRock]

Rogers is too cheap to pay for top free agents when the time comes, only hope is like what happened in 2015, luck into a couple top tier players ala Bautista and EE, then trades.

[metafour]

funny but I think he was referring to Julian Merryweather a soon to be 28 year old who is coming back from Tommy John Surgery. he is not much of a prospect, twice the indians assigned him to Triple AAA and both times he bombed with a 6.58 era in 16 starts. he gave up 105 hits in 78 innings. he's your typical hard thrower who can make minor leagues look silly but against advanced hitters he gets taken to the woodshed

 

Why would the Indians keep a "non-prospect" who "twice bombed out of AAA" on their 40 man roster? An interesting choice from a team who built an entire rotation off of guys that no one thought were anything. Those are quite the conclusions that you are making about a guy that hasn't pitched a single MLB inning, so how exactly are you concluding that he "gets taken to the woodshed against advanced hitters" LMFAO. hE GaVe Up 105 hITs in 78 INNinGs thOUgh.

[Brownie19]

This board is slipping. I did a double take to make sure I wasn't on reddit or sportsnet. f*** me.

[KevinGregg]

Rogers is too cheap to pay for top free agents when the time comes, only hope is like what happened in 2015, luck into a couple top tier players ala Bautista and EE, then trades.

 

Can you even name a deal for a top tier free agent by any other team in the last 5 years that has worked out better than Russell Martin worked out for us?

[metafour]

This board is slipping. I did a double take to make sure I wasn't on reddit or sportsnet. f*** me.

 

Apparently they were supposed to get a Top 100 prospect for Sung-whatever Oh...an erratic reliever we literally pulled off the scrap-heap months prior who went on a hot streak.

 

Literally no one wants to move top prospects anymore, and here we are nitpicking on the returns for guys like Curtis Granderson and Aaron Loup LMFAO.

 

Happ and Donaldson are literally the only legitimate gripes you can actually make a case over. I wouldn't have targeted Drury, but he's been tricking teams into believing that he's an impact type player for years now for whatever reason - including the Yankees. The Donaldson situation unfolded as badly as possible - they knew they should have moved him a year earlier, and I fully believe that they wanted to.

[Barkerfan23]

Apparently they were supposed to get a Top 100 prospect for Sung-whatever Oh...an erratic reliever we literally pulled off the scrap-heap months prior who went on a hot streak.

 

Literally no one wants to move top prospects anymore, and here we are nitpicking on the returns for guys like Curtis Granderson and Aaron Loup LMFAO.

 

Happ and Donaldson are literally the only legitimate gripes you can actually make a case over. I wouldn't have targeted Drury, but he's been tricking teams into believing that he's an impact type player for years now for whatever reason - including the Yankees. The Donaldson situation unfolded as badly as possible - they knew they should have moved him a year earlier, and I fully believe that they wanted to.

 

 

My biggest problem with Atkins is he makes dumb ass statements like these that are just not true

 

He said this last July,

 

"We're at the point now where our position player talent is very, very strong, and it would be hard to really upgrade"

 

Think about it. he said that the position player talent is very very strong. Go and look at the outfield, we have one MLB caliber outfielder, and maybe no other MLB outfielder prospects. He made this statement after acquiring Drury and Mckinney. You dont think his valuation might be incorrect. I would say the Redsox can make that statement. The Padres can make that statement. The Whitesox could even make that statement with their prospects

 

Atkins made this f***ing statement.

[DigitalRock]

My biggest problem with Atkins is he makes dumb ass statements like these that are just not true

 

He said this last July,

 

"We're at the point now where our position player talent is very, very strong, and it would be hard to really upgrade"

 

Think about it. he said that the position player talent is very very strong. Go and look at the outfield, we have one MLB caliber outfielder, and maybe no other MLB outfielder prospects. He made this statement after acquiring Drury and Mckinney. You dont think his valuation might be incorrect. I would say the Redsox can make that statement. The Padres can make that statement. The Whitesox could even make that statement with their prospects

 

Atkins made this f***ing statement.

 

You are reading too much into things, anything they say in public will be PR and they will spin everything in a positive light. What they think behind closed doors is most likely different.

[BTS]

Can you even name a deal for a top tier free agent by any other team in the last 5 years that has worked out better than Russell Martin worked out for us?

 

Martin worked out very well. There have been a few other big FA signing that have well. Off the top of my head. Scherzer, Greinke, JDM, Lester, Zobrist, Encarnacion, Cruz, Turner. As we displayed with Martin, the ability to dip into the FA market for a major piece is an ability we have that some AL rivals don't: we have the financial flexibility to go out an get an impact player that teams like Minnesota TB, and Oakland can't. You just have to make sure you're committing to the right player.

 

If Rogers will once again allow a top-10 payroll, I really hope Shatkins leverages that into serious bids for top FA talent when the time is right.

[Dick_Pole]

Performance wise I'd say thats true, but Stros got a lightly better deal in that Osuna is 24 and Giles is 28

 

1. Giles probably lasts longer in the league than Osuna.

2. Out of all positions, age is the least important factor for RP. No one signs them for 5+ years after arb. The better argument would have been years of control but you didn't bring that up.

[BTS]

“The Blue Jays are widely expected to field offers for both Marcus Stroman and Aaron Sanchez, and The Athletic’s Jayson Stark even wrote today that Toronto has “signaled they could be aggressive” in trying to move both. For a team in their position, there’s little reason to hang onto the duo beyond the 2019 season and plenty of reason to explore the market earlier rather than later. The Jays aren’t contending this season, both starters are healthy, and it’s unlikely that an additional month is going to dramatically alter a rival team’s evaluation of the righties.”

 

I don’t care about Sanchez, but Stro (and Giles, though he’s not mentioned here) are critically important decisions for Shatkins. Both trades and extensions should be on the table, and if he goes the trade route it has to be elite offensive talent brought back.

[Ray]

Why would the Indians keep a "non-prospect" who "twice bombed out of AAA" on their 40 man roster? An interesting choice from a team who built an entire rotation off of guys that no one thought were anything. Those are quite the conclusions that you are making about a guy that hasn't pitched a single MLB inning, so how exactly are you concluding that he "gets taken to the woodshed against advanced hitters" LMFAO. hE GaVe Up 105 hITs in 78 INNinGs thOUgh.

 

Merryweather has some interesting xFIP and FIP numbers throughout the minors as well. Never posted an xFIP above 4. Even when he got shelled at AAA, he still registered a 3.89 xFIP.

[Ray]

I would look into Giles to the Dodgers. Jansen hasn't been his usual self this season, and their only real hole is in the bullpen.

 

Giles for Dustin May, Mitchell White, and a throw in?

[glory]

If they trade Stroman, the return better be amazing. I don't care if they trade Giles, who is elite, but RP's are RP's and they are the one commodity on the trade market that will always have value even in a depressed market where teams are reluctant to trade prospects. We should be able to do well in a Giles trade. Playoff teams love to stack up on elite relievers. To me, Stroman is someone you keep long term. He's good, wants to stay here, is embracing the young team of mostly s***** replacement level players (until the real prospects are all up), and is young enough to still be a contributor to any 2020-beyond success. They better be very careful with his situation. At this point they either have to extend him or trade him because they can't afford to be caught with their pants down and sell at 50 cents on the dollar (or 20 cents in JD's case) by holding on to a player for too long.

[Captain Adama]

I would look into Giles to the Dodgers. Jansen hasn't been his usual self this season, and their only real hole is in the bullpen.

 

Giles for Dustin May, Mitchell White, and a throw in?

 

Any trade with Giles to the Dodgers should start with Gavin Lux IMO

[Ex Player]

1. Giles probably lasts longer in the league than Osuna

And what makes you think that??

 

2. Out of all positions, age is the least important factor for RP

Of course age is important, even for closers.

Every pitcher only has so many pitches in their arm before they start to lose velocity

[Terminator]

One thing to keep in mind with Grichuk is that he's a 2nd half player. Every single year he's been in the big leagues, he's put up a much improved second half of the season. Usually it's by a pretty considerable margin too.

 

He's replacement level through 55 games though and his career OBP is .297, both of which are a joke. So I'm not excusing him and that extension isn't exactly looking so hot right now but I do expect he'll improve by quite a bit as the season goes on.

[Ex Player]

Rogers is too cheap to pay for top free agents when the time comes, only hope is like what happened in 2015, luck into a couple top tier players ala Bautista and EE, then trades

Exactly.

 

Last 19 years have shown Rogers to be reluctant to spend $$$ on top FA's.

Unless we get a new owner I dont think that will change.

 

It sucks because Jays are a big market team who could compete with Dodgers, Yankees, Sox.....etc if they wanted to

[Brownie19]

Exactly.

 

Last 19 years have shown Rogers to be reluctant to spend $$$ on top FA's.

Unless we get a new owner I dont think that will change.

 

It sucks because Jays are a big market team who could compete with Dodgers, Yankees, Sox.....etc if they wanted to

 

Rob - did you complete the assignment I gave you?

[tbad]

I don’t care about Sanchez, but Stro (and Giles, though he’s not mentioned here) are critically important decisions for Shatkins. Both trades and extensions should be on the table, and if he goes the trade route it has to be elite offensive talent brought back.

 

Are you sure? I really think we could do with some more Brito's and Hanson's on this team...

[Terminator]

“The Blue Jays are widely expected to field offers for both Marcus Stroman and Aaron Sanchez, and The Athletic’s Jayson Stark even wrote today that Toronto has “signaled they could be aggressive” in trying to move both. For a team in their position, there’s little reason to hang onto the duo beyond the 2019 season and plenty of reason to explore the market earlier rather than later. The Jays aren’t contending this season, both starters are healthy, and it’s unlikely that an additional month is going to dramatically alter a rival team’s evaluation of the righties.”

 

I don’t care about Sanchez, but Stro (and Giles, though he’s not mentioned here) are critically important decisions for Shatkins. Both trades and extensions should be on the table, and if he goes the trade route it has to be elite offensive talent brought back.

 

Why do you say offensive talent? I know our offense sucks ass but our pitching cupboard is going to be nearly bare once we deal these guys.

[Ex Player]

Rob - did you complete the assignment I gave you?

Yes I did. Which trailer park in Wasaga beach should I mail it too??