Toronto Blue Jays Rebuilding Thread

[Maahfaace]

The Jays have had the old Leafs mindset of adding some vets to not great teams and then they wonder why they don't win. Start fresh fee up the dollars and take a year or two back to become a perennial contender with a steady diet of farm system talent - it would be nice to get lucky like the Yankees with Sanchez and Judge (or hire better scouts).

 

The problem is AA did such a great job of getting rid of Vernon Wells an untradeable albatross but then he gave us Tulo - and untradeable albatross. The team has to somehow get rid of this guy - trade him and $15million or something and just use Goins at short.

 

If you get a great offer for JD pounce on it. Everything must go. Fire sale now. The team is old.Everyone on last year contracts - thanks but goodbye.

 

Pillar - thanks but goodbye - if someone offers us something special goodbye - let's fact it - he's a defensive only outfielder. He is not an OBP guy so at best on a very good team he would be a 9-hole hitter. The older he gets the worse his Defense and speed. A lot of teams do sort of like this kind of player - but if you can land some sort of Carlos Delgado in double A or something - goodbye.

 

Full rebuild - Create the farm system the envy of all of baseball and watch them all come up and blow the league away.

 

This team has no shot at winning - even if we make into the playoffs - we'd be killed. I knew it the last two years. We don't have the the type of team that can beat A pitchers on their game - you have to be able to be situational hitters - we don't have that.

 

If someone offers us something big for Smoak - you have to trade him as well. Sell high on him because you know our luck with Michael Saunders.

 

I really want to see this team targeting Paul Molitor, Jose Altuve and Wade Boggs kinds of hitters. High OBP, Smart hitters, situational hitters, guys who can run (not necessarily steal) - Guys who can work pitchers and counts. Easier said than done I suppose. And go after the flamethrowers - the 100mph guys in drafts and trades - more chances to get Aces with these guys and if they have off games with secondary stuff - they can often beat you with the fastball.

 

And if you trade everyone - we finish near last and get better draft picks - stating the obvious I know but screw the average fans - so what if attendance is 14000 a game - your payroll will go down to $40 million so you don't need 40,000 a game.

 

To quote Christopher Hitchens, "what is this babble? "

[Krylian]

Rogers isn't going to allow us to be bottom feeding s*** for 4 years in hopes that we find treasure in the future.

 

Baseball is nothing like hockey and building a sustainable winning team doesn't have to be tear it all down and start over. The risk/reward usually isn't worth it and the 4th biggest market is never going to have a $40m payroll.

 

They let the Leafs do it. Or are you saying Bell are the ones with foresight and pushed that envelope.

 

You don't necessarily have to "blow it up" but I also think this team is beyond retooling. It needs to be somewhere in between that. Some serious pieces should go. Donaldson and Pillar I would definitely dangle. Estrada I'd move...I'd even listen on Stroman and Osuna...but it would have to be significant return. Now, I wouldn't necessarily move all 5 of those guys, but I'd see where the best bang for my buck is and start with that.

[Jimcanuck]

Jays have the team salary to field a fanbase palatable team each year, and sell off the overachievers at the break (looking at you, Smoak) to aid in the rebuild. Its possible to build up the prospect base through the draft and sell offs and have 10+ cost controlled regulars on the roster in 3 years.

[Abomination]

Jays have the team salary to field a fanbase palatable team each year, and sell off the overachievers at the break (looking at you, Smoak) to aid in the rebuild. Its possible to build up the prospect base through the draft and sell offs and have 10+ cost controlled regulars on the roster in 3 years.

 

I'm not even sure Smoak is overachieving. He's cut down his swing, which has dramatically improved his contact rate. It's not like his season has been babip fueled.

[Bobthe4th]

I'm not even sure Smoak is overachieving. He's cut down his swing, which has dramatically improved his contact rate. It's not like his season has been babip fueled.

 

His 7 year career WAR before this season was 0.3, so in that sense he's overachieving. Whether this season's Smoak is the new normal for him is another question.

[Spanky99]

The Jays have had the old Leafs mindset of adding some vets to not great teams and then they wonder why they don't win. Start fresh fee up the dollars and take a year or two back to become a perennial contender with a steady diet of farm system talent - it would be nice to get lucky like the Yankees with Sanchez and Judge (or hire better scouts).

 

The problem is AA did such a great job of getting rid of Vernon Wells an untradeable albatross but then he gave us Tulo - and untradeable albatross. The team has to somehow get rid of this guy - trade him and $15million or something and just use Goins at short.

 

If you get a great offer for JD pounce on it. Everything must go. Fire sale now. The team is old.Everyone on last year contracts - thanks but goodbye.

 

Pillar - thanks but goodbye - if someone offers us something special goodbye - let's fact it - he's a defensive only outfielder. He is not an OBP guy so at best on a very good team he would be a 9-hole hitter. The older he gets the worse his Defense and speed. A lot of teams do sort of like this kind of player - but if you can land some sort of Carlos Delgado in double A or something - goodbye.

 

Full rebuild - Create the farm system the envy of all of baseball and watch them all come up and blow the league away.

 

This team has no shot at winning - even if we make into the playoffs - we'd be killed. I knew it the last two years. We don't have the the type of team that can beat A pitchers on their game - you have to be able to be situational hitters - we don't have that.

 

If someone offers us something big for Smoak - you have to trade him as well. Sell high on him because you know our luck with Michael Saunders.

 

I really want to see this team targeting Paul Molitor, Jose Altuve and Wade Boggs kinds of hitters. High OBP, Smart hitters, situational hitters, guys who can run (not necessarily steal) - Guys who can work pitchers and counts. Easier said than done I suppose. And go after the flamethrowers - the 100mph guys in drafts and trades - more chances to get Aces with these guys and if they have off games with secondary stuff - they can often beat you with the fastball.

 

And if you trade everyone - we finish near last and get better draft picks - stating the obvious I know but screw the average fans - so what if attendance is 14000 a game - your payroll will go down to $40 million so you don't need 40,000 a game.

 

Send in your resume, mate. You've got this s*** figured out, lol. Key22 >>> Shapiro/Atkins and Co...

[Omar]

Send in your resume, mate. You've got this s*** figured out, lol. Key22 >>> Shapiro/Atkins and Co...

 

Don't encourage him.

[Key22]

This is not a good baseball team. We have no legit ace - an Ace is a guy who can and should on most nights throw 7-9 innings of 2 run baseball with several shut-outs over the season. We have no such pitcher. Heading into the playoffs you probably should have at least 2 preferably 3 such pitchers - a terrific closer and 2-3 other pretty elite bullpen arms. Then a team that can score runs without hitting homers - because you are up against elite pitchers from the other team who typically don't give up many home runs. Oh and you probably should be good defensively so you are not giving runs away.

 

Big home run hitting teams can muscle their way into the playoffs because they beat up on lousy teams and lousy pitchers. So the Jays can get into the playoffs with that and an abnormally healthy year and "good" overall pitching as they have done the last 2 years.

 

This team could get hot and win 13/15 and get back in it but I maintain even if they make the playoffs they would get bounced by a Cleveland so what is the point.

 

If, hypothetically, they trade all the one year contract guys: Liriano, Estrada, Bautista (who is a one year contract guy since the Jays won't pick up his remaining years), Smith for prospects.

 

If you are already going to trade off those pieces you are basically killing your chance for 2017.

 

The question is then 2018 and you have an offense that is no better than 2017 and a pitching staff that is considerably worse.

 

So you have to sign pricey free agents. And what are you going to land with the above players in trade - certainly no first tier prospects. Probably nothing that will truly help you. If Estrada had been pitching well - maybe quite a decent haul but at this point you'll get a triple a Ryan Goins (maybe not even that) for him.

 

The guys you can actually get something for JD, Osuna, Happ are supposed to be guys to help you win in 2018. SO if you trade any of them you may as well go full or at least half rebuild.

 

You keep Tulo and Martin (because both are untradeable anyway so you have to keep them) and you build around Stroman, Sanchez, Biagini in the rotation (assuming you think Biagini is just going through some rookie starter ups and downs) and Osuna, Tepera, Leone in the pen.

 

Perhaps you make a trade like JD and Happ or (Estrada and Liriano) to Houston for Alex Bregman and four of their top 10 prospects and 2 of their prospects from 11-20. Pay Liriano's remaining salary. Something of a blockbuster. Houston is going for it. They want a starter and adding a number three hitter and MVP on a relatively cheap salary they retain for next season would have to be enticing.

 

I mean unless anyone here truly believes we can afford to give JD an 8year $200million deal? We're losing him anyway. Of course if Houston sees Bregman as the next JD we won't be able to land him. In the now though JD is a much better player and if you are going for it in the now - then they may be able to stomach it. I have no problem trading anyone to New York or Boston - that issue should be a non issue. Get the best package you can regardless.

[Bobthe4th]

^ this guy gets it - building around Tepera and Leone is the obvious way to go! /s

[P2F]

This is not a good baseball team. We have no legit ace - an Ace is a guy who can and should on most nights throw 7-9 innings of 2 run baseball with several shut-outs over the season. We have no such pitcher. Heading into the playoffs you probably should have at least 2 preferably 3 such pitchers - a terrific closer and 2-3 other pretty elite bullpen arms. Then a team that can score runs without hitting homers - because you are up against elite pitchers from the other team who typically don't give up many home runs. Oh and you probably should be good defensively so you are not giving runs away.

 

Big home run hitting teams can muscle their way into the playoffs because they beat up on lousy teams and lousy pitchers. So the Jays can get into the playoffs with that and an abnormally healthy year and "good" overall pitching as they have done the last 2 years.

 

This team could get hot and win 13/15 and get back in it but I maintain even if they make the playoffs they would get bounced by a Cleveland so what is the point.

 

If, hypothetically, they trade all the one year contract guys: Liriano, Estrada, Bautista (who is a one year contract guy since the Jays won't pick up his remaining years), Smith for prospects.

 

If you are already going to trade off those pieces you are basically killing your chance for 2017.

 

The question is then 2018 and you have an offense that is no better than 2017 and a pitching staff that is considerably worse.

 

So you have to sign pricey free agents. And what are you going to land with the above players in trade - certainly no first tier prospects. Probably nothing that will truly help you. If Estrada had been pitching well - maybe quite a decent haul but at this point you'll get a triple a Ryan Goins (maybe not even that) for him.

 

The guys you can actually get something for JD, Osuna, Happ are supposed to be guys to help you win in 2018. SO if you trade any of them you may as well go full or at least half rebuild.

 

You keep Tulo and Martin (because both are untradeable anyway so you have to keep them) and you build around Stroman, Sanchez, Biagini in the rotation (assuming you think Biagini is just going through some rookie starter ups and downs) and Osuna, Tepera, Leone in the pen.

 

Perhaps you make a trade like JD and Happ or (Estrada and Liriano) to Houston for Alex Bregman and four of their top 10 prospects and 2 of their prospects from 11-20. Pay Liriano's remaining salary. Something of a blockbuster. Houston is going for it. They want a starter and adding a number three hitter and MVP on a relatively cheap salary they retain for next season would have to be enticing.

 

I mean unless anyone here truly believes we can afford to give JD an 8year $200million deal? We're losing him anyway. Of course if Houston sees Bregman as the next JD we won't be able to land him. In the now though JD is a much better player and if you are going for it in the now - then they may be able to stomach it. I have no problem trading anyone to New York or Boston - that issue should be a non issue. Get the best package you can regardless.

 

tl;dr

[Jimcanuck]

Houston is an ideal trading partner, plenty of good prospects blocked by the guys on the bigly roster

[Jonn]

Jays have the team salary to field a fanbase palatable team each year, and sell off the overachievers at the break (looking at you, Smoak) to aid in the rebuild. Its possible to build up the prospect base through the draft and sell offs and have 10+ cost controlled regulars on the roster in 3 years.

 

If they go in the direction of a rebuild. I hope they look to trade Smoak. Obviously he's a different player across the board. But it is only one season and before this season everyone was convinced he was a sunk cost. He has that cheap option attached to him which just makes him more attractive on the trade market.

 

Trade Candidates:

Marco Estarada

J.A. Happ

Francisco Liriano

Joe Smith

 

Miguel Montero

Darwin Barney

Josh Donaldson

Justin Smoak

Ezequiel Carrera

 

I don't think they will trade Bautista especially considering he has complete control of where he can go. I wish they could trade Morales. But you look at all those guys who could bring in quality prospects who are either expiring or have one year of control beyond this season. On top of what we have we could position ourselves with one of the top farm systems in Baseball with s*** loads of money to spend in key free agent classes.

 

They could go in many directions but I would disappointed if this wasn't the route they took. Resigning Donaldson at 33 for the likely 5+ years he will command is just not likely to happen. So lets say we are slightly competitive with a retool for 2018 gunning for a wild card spot and miss. We lose Donaldson for nothing when we could land 3 premium prospects right now at the minimum. Fans can f*** off for a year. When we win again they will come back.

[Jimcanuck]

If they go in the direction of a rebuild. I hope they look to trade Smoak. Obviously he's a different player across the board. But it is only one season and before this season everyone was convinced he was a sunk cost. He has that cheap option attached to him which just makes him more attractive on the trade market.

 

Trade Candidates:

Marco Estarada

J.A. Happ

Francisco Liriano

Joe Smith

 

Miguel Montero

Darwin Barney

Josh Donaldson

Justin Smoak

Ezequiel Carrera

 

I don't think they will trade Bautista especially considering he has complete control of where he can go. I wish they could trade Morales. But you look at all those guys who could bring in quality prospects who are either expiring or have one year of control beyond this season. On top of what we have we could position ourselves with one of the top farm systems in Baseball with s*** loads of money to spend in key free agent classes.

 

They could go in many directions but I would disappointed if this wasn't the route they took. Resigning Donaldson at 33 for the likely 5+ years he will command is just not likely to happen. So lets say we are slightly competitive with a retool for 2018 gunning for a wild card spot and miss. We lose Donaldson for nothing when we could land 3 premium prospects right now at the minimum. Fans can f*** off for a year. When we win again they will come back.

 

Agree with this but add Osuna to the list. Teams overvalue high leverage relievers at the deadline, Osuna could fetch an extremely good return.

[glory]

Yeah I have a feeling next year at this time the Jays are going to regret not trading JD, Happ, etc, when they were more controllable and therefore more valuable to other teams.

 

Hell, trade JD, Happ, and others, but still try to win in 2018. There will be a s*** ton of money saved by those moves which they could reallocate, in addition to having a much better farm system. It likely won't lead to the playoffs in 2018, but there's a good chance keeping those guys won't lead it to either.

[Candy Maldonado]

The Jays have had the old Leafs mindset of adding some vets to not great teams and then they wonder why they don't win. Start fresh fee up the dollars and take a year or two back to become a perennial contender with a steady diet of farm system talent - it would be nice to get lucky like the Yankees with Sanchez and Judge (or hire better scouts).

 

The problem is AA did such a great job of getting rid of Vernon Wells an untradeable albatross but then he gave us Tulo - and untradeable albatross. The team has to somehow get rid of this guy - trade him and $15million or something and just use Goins at short.

 

If you get a great offer for JD pounce on it. Everything must go. Fire sale now. The team is old.Everyone on last year contracts - thanks but goodbye.

 

Pillar - thanks but goodbye - if someone offers us something special goodbye - let's fact it - he's a defensive only outfielder. He is not an OBP guy so at best on a very good team he would be a 9-hole hitter. The older he gets the worse his Defense and speed. A lot of teams do sort of like this kind of player - but if you can land some sort of Carlos Delgado in double A or something - goodbye.

 

Full rebuild - Create the farm system the envy of all of baseball and watch them all come up and blow the league away.

 

This team has no shot at winning - even if we make into the playoffs - we'd be killed. I knew it the last two years. We don't have the the type of team that can beat A pitchers on their game - you have to be able to be situational hitters - we don't have that.

 

If someone offers us something big for Smoak - you have to trade him as well. Sell high on him because you know our luck with Michael Saunders.

 

I really want to see this team targeting Paul Molitor, Jose Altuve and Wade Boggs kinds of hitters. High OBP, Smart hitters, situational hitters, guys who can run (not necessarily steal) - Guys who can work pitchers and counts. Easier said than done I suppose. And go after the flamethrowers - the 100mph guys in drafts and trades - more chances to get Aces with these guys and if they have off games with secondary stuff - they can often beat you with the fastball.

 

And if you trade everyone - we finish near last and get better draft picks - stating the obvious I know but screw the average fans - so what if attendance is 14000 a game - your payroll will go down to $40 million so you don't need 40,000 a game.

 

 

This is not a good baseball team. We have no legit ace - an Ace is a guy who can and should on most nights throw 7-9 innings of 2 run baseball with several shut-outs over the season. We have no such pitcher. Heading into the playoffs you probably should have at least 2 preferably 3 such pitchers - a terrific closer and 2-3 other pretty elite bullpen arms. Then a team that can score runs without hitting homers - because you are up against elite pitchers from the other team who typically don't give up many home runs. Oh and you probably should be good defensively so you are not giving runs away.

 

Big home run hitting teams can muscle their way into the playoffs because they beat up on lousy teams and lousy pitchers. So the Jays can get into the playoffs with that and an abnormally healthy year and "good" overall pitching as they have done the last 2 years.

 

This team could get hot and win 13/15 and get back in it but I maintain even if they make the playoffs they would get bounced by a Cleveland so what is the point.

 

If, hypothetically, they trade all the one year contract guys: Liriano, Estrada, Bautista (who is a one year contract guy since the Jays won't pick up his remaining years), Smith for prospects.

 

If you are already going to trade off those pieces you are basically killing your chance for 2017.

 

The question is then 2018 and you have an offense that is no better than 2017 and a pitching staff that is considerably worse.

 

So you have to sign pricey free agents. And what are you going to land with the above players in trade - certainly no first tier prospects. Probably nothing that will truly help you. If Estrada had been pitching well - maybe quite a decent haul but at this point you'll get a triple a Ryan Goins (maybe not even that) for him.

 

The guys you can actually get something for JD, Osuna, Happ are supposed to be guys to help you win in 2018. SO if you trade any of them you may as well go full or at least half rebuild.

 

You keep Tulo and Martin (because both are untradeable anyway so you have to keep them) and you build around Stroman, Sanchez, Biagini in the rotation (assuming you think Biagini is just going through some rookie starter ups and downs) and Osuna, Tepera, Leone in the pen.

 

Perhaps you make a trade like JD and Happ or (Estrada and Liriano) to Houston for Alex Bregman and four of their top 10 prospects and 2 of their prospects from 11-20. Pay Liriano's remaining salary. Something of a blockbuster. Houston is going for it. They want a starter and adding a number three hitter and MVP on a relatively cheap salary they retain for next season would have to be enticing.

 

I mean unless anyone here truly believes we can afford to give JD an 8year $200million deal? We're losing him anyway. Of course if Houston sees Bregman as the next JD we won't be able to land him. In the now though JD is a much better player and if you are going for it in the now - then they may be able to stomach it. I have no problem trading anyone to New York or Boston - that issue should be a non issue. Get the best package you can regardless.

 

wow keep them coming

[Key22]

^ this guy gets it - building around Tepera and Leone is the obvious way to go! /s

 

They are cheap - I am fine if you trade them as well - but both pitchers have done a decent job - they are controlled for the next few years. The point I made which you choose to ignore is to go young. Basically trade everyone who is over the age of 28.

[Dick_Pole]

They are cheap - I am fine if you trade them as well - but both pitchers have done a decent job - they are controlled for the next few years. The point I made which you choose to ignore is to go young. Basically trade everyone who is over the age of 28.

 

Dennis Ryan Tepera (born November 3, 1987) is an American professional baseball pitcher for the Toronto Blue Jays of Major League Baseball (MLB). He attended Brazoswood High School, and played college baseball for the Sam Houston State Bearkats.

[Angrioter]

Dennis Ryan Tepera (born November 3, 1987) is an American professional baseball pitcher for the Toronto Blue Jays of Major League Baseball (MLB). He attended Brazoswood High School, and played college baseball for the Sam Houston State Bearkats.

 

He's half Dominican

[glory]

Danny Barnes turns 28 in October, so should they trade him this winter or the following one?

[leaffie]

I hate to be a nitpicker, but when you have got your wishes and traded everyone to fill up that farm system, who exactly will be playing on this team???

[dineke]

I hate to be a nitpicker, but when you have got your wishes and traded everyone to fill up that farm system, who exactly will be playing on this team???

 

Get old blue jays out of retirement. 2005 blue jays in 2017 hell yeah/

[SaskJaysFan_2]

Yankees didn't blow up, they retooled.

 

They also had, and still have, one of the best farm systems in baseball.

 

The Jays, like we all know, have some night talents in the lower tiers, but not much in AAA.

[leaffie]

I am sure that some of them could play as well as some of the misadventures we have seen on the field this year.

[CanuckofChicago]

Just curious. For everyone that advocates for a full tear down and rebuild will everyone still go to the park and enjoy going back to 15K a night and enjoy multiple long losing seasons? Also, it is not guaranteed that this rebuild will be successful and/or take longer. People look at the Cubs and the Astros, but for the Cubs everything went right for them, an owner with deep pockets w/o a fear to spend money, Theo E. became available, player development appear to have been successful, and then Joe Maddon became available. For Astros, it was losing season after losing season.

[KingKat]

Just curious. For everyone that advocates for a full tear down and rebuild will everyone still go to the park and enjoy going back to 15K a night and enjoy multiple long losing seasons? Also, it is not guaranteed that this rebuild will be successful and/or take longer. People look at the Cubs and the Astros, but for the Cubs everything went right for them, an owner with deep pockets w/o a fear to spend money, Theo E. became available, player development appear to have been successful, and then Joe Maddon became available. For Astros, it was losing season after losing season.

 

It's kind of a moot point anyways. Rogers won't allow a full tank.

[dineke]

Just curious. For everyone that advocates for a full tear down and rebuild will everyone still go to the park and enjoy going back to 15K a night and enjoy multiple long losing seasons? Also, it is not guaranteed that this rebuild will be successful and/or take longer. People look at the Cubs and the Astros, but for the Cubs everything went right for them, an owner with deep pockets w/o a fear to spend money, Theo E. became available, player development appear to have been successful, and then Joe Maddon became available. For Astros, it was losing season after losing season.

 

Uh we're already losing and this team isn't getting any younger.

[Krylian]

Uh we're already losing and this team isn't getting any younger.

 

Anyone watch Eddie Murphy's Delirious? I picture the Jays demise similar to how Murphy describes his aunt falling down the stairs...clutching and grabbing the pickets and bannister...making a 3 second fall take 8 minutes. I see the Jays sitting in no man's land for a while. The Farm System has some pieces, but not enough...and not enough that's really close. They also won't blow their brains out like the Yankees or Dodgers did with the IFA market. People say the Yankees and Dodgers have a great system...well, that's a big reason why. They had a shot to do it in the Vladdy year but they just went a little about the cap and got their pee pee slapped for one year...rather than signing everything that moved and actually commit to a raping of the IFA cap like many other organizations with better systems have done.

 

I'll sit back and remain hopeful, but I'm not expecting an aggressive rebuilding or restocking.

[CanuckofChicago]

I expect the Jays FO to attempt to remain competitive while replenishing their farm systems through some deals, the draft, and international free agents, but I do not see a complete rebuild any time soon unless you are playing The Show. We shall see though, I am trying to remain positive for 2017 that the team still has one last run left in the tank.

[Art Vandelay]

Uh we're already losing and this team isn't getting any younger.

 

And if we continue losing, we'll start drawing less and less fans anyway.

[Krylian]

I expect the Jays FO to attempt to remain competitive while replenishing their farm systems through some deals, the draft, and international free agents, but I do not see a complete rebuild any time soon unless you are playing The Show. We shall see though, I am trying to remain positive for 2017 that the team still has one last run left in the tank.

 

I don't even think we need a full blowup. But I think we do need some meaningful change. I don't think the changes will be meaningful is my concern.