Annual Hall of Fame induction thread

[Brownie19]

Wait seriously, how the f*** is Larry Walker on his 7th year on the ballot? For some reason I was under the assumption that he was a bat-only guy with bad defense.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=455&position=OF#fielding

 

140 wRC+, 230 SB, defensive runs in the positives. 11% BB, 15% K. Batting average above 300.

 

He was the #27 OF of all time. He had better numbers than Tony Gwynn.

 

Yeah - we complained a few days ago that it's a f***ing joke that Vlady is going to get in on the first ballot while Walker and Edgar won't (let alone Clemens, Bonds, etc.).

[THANOS]

Wait 5 years and Ortiz will get in.

 

Given the voter base, it will basically come down to Ortiz (500+ HR) > Martinez (300+ HR).

[TheHurl]

Vlad a first ballot HoFer and Larry Walker isn't even getting close. What a joke. Hoffman is horrible. Is he the worst Hall of Famer? He's got to be up there.

 

I'm not sure I get the Hoffman hate. Of the 5 relief pitchers that are in (Eck had 300+ starts so he's tough to compare so I left him out) Hoffman was the best one. The difference being that Hoffman didn't shape the position, he came into the position after it had been shaped by Smith, and Fingers before him. He also didn't have that great one pitch.

 

My big argument is that if "relief pitcher" is a position...why isn't DH? I believe both are and Hoffman and Martinez both belong (along with Wagner, who is hurt by the sheer number of injuries he had)

[KingKat]

I'm not sure I get the Hoffman hate. Of the 5 relief pitchers that are in (Eck had 300+ starts so he's tough to compare so I left him out) Hoffman was the best one. My big argument is that if "relief pitcher" is a position...why isn't DH? I believe both are and Hoffman and Martinez both belong (along with Wagner, who is hurt by the sheer number of injuries he had)

 

Mariano Rivera is third all time in WPA and Hoffman is 11th. That's among all pitchers not just relievers. Just because these guys pitched less doesn't mean they didn't contribute a lot. The idea that some journeyman who gives you 200 innings is worth more than absolutely peak performance over 60-70 innings is bogus. I'm not sure why it's so persistent.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=3&season=2016&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=3,d

[TheHurl]

Mariano Rivera is third all time in WPA and Hoffman is 11th. That's among all pitchers not just relievers. Just because these guys pitched less doesn't mean they didn't contribute a lot. The idea that some journeyman who gives you 200 innings is worth more than absolutely peak performance over 60-70 innings is bogus. I'm not sure why it's so persistent.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=3&season=2016&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=3,d

 

There is the one argument that can be brought up by fans against voters that left off Walker based on his "Colorado" stats. They voted in Hoffman who spent 6 seasons in the most extreme pitchers park and another 10 seasons in one of the top 5 pitching parks. I know it's not quite as extreme a park factor as the peak Coors factor but it's still an argument that most probably could not answer.

[Laika]

Hoffman did have a pretty insane reliever peak:

 

1996-2000: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2000&month=0&season1=1996&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=19,d

 

I guess his case is that he surrounded an elite five year peak with longevity. But on the career scale, he's still not even comparable to Mo. He's closer to frigging Papelbon and K-Rod than he is to Rivera.

 

At the end of the day the difference between Trevor Hoffman and guys like Jonathan Papelbon, Joe Nathan, or K-Rod is that Hoffman was able to tack about five (5) extra 1 WAR seasons onto his career. That's a pretty awful HOF case.

 

Of course, the voters also care about 600 Saves and we absolutely do not because we are smart and they are dumb. But it is what it is (dumb).

[G-Snarls]

Announcement at 6 PM

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/213666836/2017-hall-of-fame-announcement-on-deck/

[G-Snarls]

Pudge, Bagwell, Raines all tending to making it

 

Vlad and Hoffman *close* but a little bit shy so far

[G-Snarls]

Combining the HOF threads

[TheHurl]

You can't say "all time" if you're using a leaderboard that only includes recent seasons. It's a very misleading stat, anyway.

 

Hoffman's case is that he stayed healthy for many seasons and racked up ninth inning appearances as a decent pitcher. Should that make you a Hall of Famer? Maybe, but many of the other players on the ballot have better cases. He wasn't an outstanding player and not as effective a reliever as Wagner.

 

You trying to tell me that 1996 - 2000, hitting dream era, Trevor Hoffman was not an outstanding player? The guy was 34th in pitching fWAR in this time frame and he, Wagner and Mariano were way ahead of almost every reliever during this era too (Maybe Rob Nen). Averaging 2.0 fWAR in a hitters era for a ten year period as a reliever is impressive. An argument for relievers not being in the Hall I can absolutely buy, as the difference between the top 3 and the middle of the pack are too miniscule...but if there are going to be relievers in the hall Hoffman deserves it. No one ever compares catcher hitting stats to Outfielders so position has to be considered.

[Brownie19]

Pudge, Bagwell, Raines all tending to making it

 

Vlad and Hoffman *close* but a little bit shy so far

 

good

[Captain Adama]

Is Halladay a sure bet for the hall?

 

He should, his peak was easily HoF calibre. And it was him between him and Santana as the best pitchers of the mid 2000's. His only knock is the relative lack of total innings compared to other HoFs. But imo he gets in regardless.

[Terminator]

 

Heyman's ballot predictably sucks.

[TwistedLogic]

Bonds but no Clemens. Smith but no Wagner. McGriff over Walker. Posada over Bagwell.

 

If anyone other than Heyman had posted this, it would have infuriated me. For some reason I can't get mad at Heyman. He's too adorable.

 

Edit: f*** off, Shermanator.

[Terminator]

You trying to tell me that 1996 - 2000, hitting dream era, Trevor Hoffman was not an outstanding player? The guy was 34th in pitching fWAR in this time frame and he, Wagner and Mariano were way ahead of almost every reliever during this era too (Maybe Rob Nen). Averaging 2.0 fWAR in a hitters era for a ten year period as a reliever is impressive. An argument for relievers not being in the Hall I can absolutely buy, as the difference between the top 3 and the middle of the pack are too miniscule...but if there are going to be relievers in the hall Hoffman deserves it. No one ever compares catcher hitting stats to Outfielders so position has to be considered.

 

So would you vote for Billy Wagner then too? He's the Larry Walker to Hoffman's Vlad Guerrero IMO.

[TwistedLogic]

Heyman is a hoot!

[KingKat]

You can't say "all time" if you're using a leaderboard that only includes recent seasons. It's a very misleading stat, anyway.

 

 

I didn't realize it defaulted to recent years. That's kind of dumb but I still should clued in given who the list was populated by.

[TholesWeirdEye]

 

Heyman's ballot predictably sucks.

 

The guy can't even twitter. Look at that pixelated profile pic.

[wamco]

So only hurl, box, and sirBjay made their preferred ballots known to potentially face ridicule.

[TwistedLogic]

The guy can't even twitter. Look at that pixelated profile pic.

 

http://i.imgur.com/0vgDE0n.png

[TheHurl]

So would you vote for Billy Wagner then too? He's the Larry Walker to Hoffman's Vlad Guerrero IMO.

 

I have said (including three times in this thread) eventually I'd vote for Wagner. Vlad was not on my ballot. Manny who I leave off for now is off because he was the worst at one aspect of the game. But he's one of 13 on this ballot I'd put in. I've also said in the past, if the HOF ever started over I'd have stupid women's golf type standards to make it truly elite and then only a couple of these guys would get in. Of course my HOF would close down as no one wants to go see 35 exhibits.

[Brownie19]

Bonds but no Clemens. Smith but no Wagner. McGriff over Walker. Posada over Bagwell.

 

If anyone other than Heyman had posted this, it would have infuriated me. For some reason I can't get mad at Heyman. He's too adorable.

 

Edit: f*** off, Shermanator.

 

Whoever it is that lives beside Heyman should go over and punch him in the face.

[TwistedLogic]

The official MLB.com Hall of Fame stream is live:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/7417714/v1218530583/live-mlb-network-simulcast

 

Coverage will run 3 PM to 7 PM EST, with the official announcement coming at 6 PM.

[TwistedLogic]

30 minutes from the announcement. They're about to talk about Schilling hurting his Hall case on the live stream. This should be juicy.

[Captain Adama]

So only hurl, box, and sirBjay made their preferred ballots known to potentially face ridicule.

 

Ridicule from whom? You?

 

Brownie also stated his list was the same as mine and Boxcar

[wamco]

No, others. I listed mine.

[TwistedLogic]

Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez.

 

http://baseballhall.org/hof/class-of-2017

 

Trevor Hoffman missed by 1%.

[Orgfiller]

Wow Sammy Sosa got destroyed. The voters are so dumb.

[TwistedLogic]

Thome, Chipper, Vlad, Hoffman are pretty much locks for 2018. I wonder if Edgar can make enough of a jump to join them.

[Jonn]

Happy Tim Raines got in. 3 Expos now.