Do you think Shapiro is forcing this team into rebuild mode?

[Pendleton]

Building for sustained success is the way to go, and I really don't think anything about this off season indicates a rebuild.

[P2F]

Yeah. He's a year into his plan to assemble the foundation for a team that can compete perpetually. Accrue as many wins in the present while also assembling farm talent and avoiding rich long-term commitments to players in their in the decline years. There seems to be three main keys to the plan:

 

1. Build a pipeline of farm talent and keep it

- McGuire and Ramirez added via trade

- Gurriel added via IFA, as well as several lesser pieces

- guys like Zeuch and Bichette in the 2016 draft, and likely three more 1st round picks in 2017

- only very low-end guys given up via trade: Sean Ratcliffe, Hansel Rodriguez, Guadalupe Chavez, Colton Turner

 

2. Avoid expensive commitments to ageing vets

- Price, Encarnacion, and likely Bautista all allowed to walk

- nobody with the exception of Gurriel (only 23 years old) acquired with longer than a 3-year financial commitment

 

3. Supplement the roster with mid-to-low level value free agent signings

- Estrada 2/26

- Happ 3/36

- Morales 3/33

- Pearce 2/12

 

Do everything possible to keep AA's window open, while at the same time laying the foundation for a team that doesn't need a window.

Bingo.

 

I love the direction Shatkins are taking this team. As it stands, this team has a possibility of making the playoffs next season, and they've improved the farm somewhat significantly in just one season (including the upcoming gained sandwich selections) without selling off any vets that would subsequently diminish the team's chances of a return to the playoffs. Those signings you mentioned, on the whole, are so f***ing shrewd and allow the team to stay competitive.

 

Edit: That's not to say that I think they will make the playoffs, but it wouldn't exactly be surprising by any means if they earned a wildcard berth.

[Driveof85]

Just wondering..

With not signing their core players.. I really think he is forcing this team into rebuild mode.. That's why he fired AA who made this team as a contender.

 

Yes. He and Atkins will have run this franchise into the ground.

[Driveof85]

Bingo.

 

I love the direction Shatkins are taking this team. As it stands, this team has a possibility of making the playoffs next season, and they've improved the farm somewhat significantly in just one season (including the upcoming gained sandwich selections) without selling off any vets that would subsequently diminish the team's chances of a return to the playoffs. Those signings you mentioned, on the whole, are so f***ing shrewd and allow the team to stay competitive.

 

Edit: That's not to say that I think they will make the playoffs, but it wouldn't exactly be surprising by any means if they earned a wildcard berth.

 

Ha! You're dreaming buddy. You can kiss the post season goodbye effective 2016-12-22.

[Stangstag]

Ha! You're dreaming buddy. You can kiss the post season goodbye effective 2016-12-22.

 

So Edwin is the difference between making the postseason and missing it? Get your head out of your ass. There's still lots of offseason left, and the FO will likely replace the 3 WAR Edwin would have brought with other pieces.

[Ray]

Ha! You're dreaming buddy. You can kiss the post season goodbye effective 2016-12-22.

 

Mind giving me next weeks lottery numbers as well?

[GodDonaldson]

Interesting tweet

 

When Indians signed Swisher, agreement was reached on Dec. 23 and made official on Jan. 3. Could be similar with Encarnacion timing.

[GodDonaldson]

Here are the list of mistakes which Shatkins made.

 

1. Not even offering to David Price, and signed Happ instead (Ended up not being a mistake)

 

2. Offering Justin Smoak a contract extention (A player who contributed absolutely nothing to this team.. )

 

3. Being impatient on EE and rushed to sign Morales and Pearce. (We don't know if EE didnt like Toronto or Shapiro and Atkins were impatient to wait for EE's decision)

 

4. (Potentially) Letting Bautista go (This may hurt more than EE since he is a leader and momentum builder of this team)

[george09]

This looks like a thread on reddit. So much f***ing stupid.

 

Have you seen the Jays sub reddit the last week? They've been freaking out

[Bobthe4th]

To provide some balance - 20 correct decisions from the front office in no particular order:

 

1. Not resigning David Price.

 

2. Not resigning Mark Lowe.

 

3. Signing Marco Estrada to a team friendly extension (roughly $12.5m surplus value last year).

 

4. Signing JA Happ to a team friendly free agent deal (roughly $15.6m surplus value last year).

 

5. Signing Darwin Barney for barely above minimum to cover most of the infield in 2016.

 

6. Signing Darwin Barney in arbitration for barely above minimum to cover most of the infield in 2017.

 

7. Keeping Ezequiel Carrera for barely above minimum to be the 4th outfielder in 2016.

 

8. Signing Ezequiel Carrera in arbitration for barely above minimum to be the 4th outfielder in 2017.

 

9. Trading Drew Hutchison for a better starter and 2 mid to high prospects.

 

10. Extending Josh Donaldson to cover his peak years without committing to his potentially decline years.

 

11. Signing Steve Pearce to a team friendly deal to play 1B and potentially cover the outfield.

 

12. Refusing to sign Jose Bautista to a long term deal when we already have Morales, and Pearce at 1B/DH, and Donaldson, Tulo and Martin who should all get 10-15 DH games in an ideal world.

 

13. Taking a long term deal off the table for EE when we already have Morales, and Pearce at 1B/DH, and Donaldson, Tulo and Martin who should all get 10-15 DH games in an ideal world.

 

14. Signing Joe Biagini as a rule 5 draft pick.

 

15. Not rushing prospects to the majors.

 

16. Signing Lourdes Gurriel Jr. to a team friendly 7 year contract.

 

17. Not trading any of the valuable veterans (Tulo, Martin etc) for prospects and therefore not giving up on 2017 before it begins.

 

18. Not trading any significant prospects.

 

19. Trading a non prospect for Jason Grilli.

 

20. Picking up Jason Grilli's $3m option for 2017.

 

 

I'm probably missing some.

[fireballW]

Bingo.

 

I love the direction Shatkins are taking this team. As it stands, this team has a possibility of making the playoffs next season, and they've improved the farm somewhat significantly in just one season (including the upcoming gained sandwich selections) without selling off any vets that would subsequently diminish the team's chances of a return to the playoffs. Those signings you mentioned, on the whole, are so f***ing shrewd and allow the team to stay competitive.

 

Edit: That's not to say that I think they will make the playoffs, but it wouldn't exactly be surprising by any means if they earned a wildcard berth.

 

AA acquired farm talent at will. This team is certainly going to go on a downhill turn but at least prospectz.

[Nafro]

My goodness. EE turned down a BETTER offer from Toronto, then he got from Cleveland. Forcing a re-build? Yes because every baseball executive's goal is to take a successful playoff team, and force a re-build. Give your head a shake, or at least pull it out of your ass.

[P2F]

AA acquired farm talent at will. This team is certainly going to go on a downhill turn but at least prospectz.

I fully expect Shapiro and co. to draft/develop better than AA did. Edited December 23, 2016 by P2F

[CrackerJack]

it'll be interesting to see what kind of reception Shapiro gets at the State of the Franchise event (or whatever they call it now) in 6 short weeks time.

[Rusty_Savage]

Ignoring the original poster. I do think the F.O. is aware that signing Donaldson beyond 2018 is a below 50% proposition.

 

If they are a .500ish team by the deadline do you see them selling off players like Donaldson, Estrada and Happ?

[Bobthe4th]

If they are a .500ish team by the deadline do you see them selling off players like Donaldson, Estrada and Happ?

 

A .500 team at the deadline likely still has a shot at the 2nd wildcard.

 

Saying that, an Estrada trade (as his contract is just for 2017) at that point would make sense if a contender (Astros?) needed to shore up their pitching for the playoffs.

[BlueJays]

Why don't you call Mommy too

Mods.

[Rusty_Savage]

How is Real Accountant still not banned?

[Brownie19]

it'll be interesting to see what kind of reception Shapiro gets at the State of the Franchise event (or whatever they call it now) in 6 short weeks time.

 

You really give a f*** about what a bunch of dumb bandwagon fans think about Shapiro?

[CHRIS]

Back in the Gord Ash days, Ash always seemed to talk about re-tooling versus re-building. It never made sense back then because the Ash teams *should* have been rebuilding around the Greens/Delgados and the like.

 

In this case though, I think re-tooling is a fine description for what Shapiro should be trying to do. He has a fair amount of talent on this squad in general, a solid rotation, and is a piece or two away from having a solid bullpen. I think re-signing Edwin/Bautista would have been fine had the core of this team been younger. With Donaldson, Tulo, Martin, Happ, Estrada (and Edwin/Bautista) all being on the wrong side of 30, I don't really mind the course they've taken.

[TheHurl]

If they are a .500ish team by the deadline do you see them selling off players like Donaldson, Estrada and Happ?

 

It's such a tough situation to broker. It can't be a Halladay type deal, it almost has be a player already producing that a contending team can afford to move. Maybe with a leaked story that Donaldson wants to be traded as well for PR reasons. Trade them all and tank for Seth Beer as that would be the closest thing to a Cubs rebuild.

[saskjayfan]

I fully expect Shapiro and co. to draft/develop better than AA did.

 

I just took a look at AAs first draft in 2010. Cleveland drafted Pomeranz at 5 and the jays got Sanchez and syndergaard at 34 and 38. Cleveland had no relevant players in that draft outside pomeranz. The jays also drafted Sean Nolin, nicolino sam dyson, Pompey and Bryant in that draft.

 

The draft is still a crapshoot.

Edited December 23, 2016 by saskjayfan

[TheHurl]

I fully expect Shapiro and co. to draft/develop better than AA did.

 

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a great drafter in baseball. I think if AA kept drafting for Toronto (or is Tinnish the draft guru?) there would be down times as well. One thing AA was great at was making sure the Jays had lots of picks.

[fatcowxlive]

Offers a contract (which was more than the Indians) to Edwin, signs Morales and Pearce (both over 30), and has traded no one off the team thus far...

 

I'm not sure if you're trolling or you're seeing some signs that I'm not

[Brownie19]

I just took a look at AAs first draft in 2010. Cleveland drafted Pomeranz at 5 and the jays got Sanchez and syndergaard at 34 and 38. Cleveland had no relevant players in that draft outside pomeranz. The jays also drafted Sean Nolin, nicolino sam dyson, Pompey and Bryant in that draft.

 

The draft is still a crapshoot.

 

AA also took Deck McGuire over Sanchez/Syndergaard in that draft (and instead of Chris Sale and Christian Yelich). That said - AA did a great job of rebuilding the farm system (and taking advantage of loop holes in the CBA). A few of the guys doing all the dirty work for AA are still with the team (Tinnish included), so it will be fun to see what Shatkins can do over the next few years.

[brianf]

You really give a f*** about what a bunch of dumb bandwagon fans think about Shapiro?

 

I understand your point but it's the bandwagon fans who fill the stadium, buy merchandise and watch the games. Without them, Rogers can go back to the loosing money conversations and justify a decrease in spending. Not signing someone like EE hurts the team in more then just current on field performance.

[glory]

I understand your point but it's the bandwagon fans who fill the stadium, buy merchandise and watch the games. Without them, Rogers can go back to the loosing money conversations and justify a decrease in spending. Not signing someone like EE hurts the team in more then just current on field performance.

 

Those bandwagon fans got over losing David Price after a winter of crying once the team played well. Same deal here.

 

If JB and EE were re-signed and the Jays fell off in 2017, those fans wouldn't be there to support the team. Shapiro doesn't care about those fans, nor should he. THose are the easiest fans to get back, if anything.

[cusstown]

Yeah. He's a year into his plan to assemble the foundation for a team that can compete perpetually. Accrue as many wins in the present while also assembling farm talent and avoiding rich long-term commitments to players in their in the decline years. There seems to be three main keys to the plan:

 

1. Build a pipeline of farm talent and keep it

- McGuire and Ramirez added via trade

- Gurriel added via IFA, as well as several lesser pieces

- guys like Zeuch and Bichette in the 2016 draft, and likely three more 1st round picks in 2017

- only very low-end guys given up via trade: Sean Ratcliffe, Hansel Rodriguez, Guadalupe Chavez, Colton Turner

 

2. Avoid expensive commitments to ageing vets

- Price, Encarnacion, and likely Bautista all allowed to walk

- nobody with the exception of Gurriel (only 23 years old) acquired with longer than a 3-year financial commitment

 

3. Supplement the roster with mid-to-low level value free agent signings

- Estrada 2/26

- Happ 3/36

- Morales 3/33

- Pearce 2/12

 

Do everything possible to keep AA's window open, while at the same time laying the foundation for a team that doesn't need a window.

 

He could've still executed most of that plan while extending the window another 3 years by signing Eddie and finding a value contract or 2 for the pen. Maybe by then it wouldn't have been a window at all. Losing Eddie is a colossal loss and a f*** up on both sides. We now have a guy who can hopefully build the farm system and a treadmill team at a time when the fanbase has finally been energized enough to justify upping the payroll. Now that could all go away. We could have very well been the next Red Sox if we maintained that window by doing a little bit to improve the current team.

[Brownie19]

Those bandwagon fans got over losing David Price after a winter of crying once the team played well. Same deal here.

 

If JB and EE were re-signed and the Jays fell off in 2017, those fans wouldn't be there to support the team. Shapiro doesn't care about those fans, nor should he. THose are the easiest fans to get back, if anything.

 

BAM - spot on. Are Angel fans packing the stadium because they signed Pujols and Josh Hamilton long term?

[RealAccountant]

So what exactly is Shapiro's plan. As things are right now we are a .500 team. This offense is not good enough we have no corner outfielders that aren't replacement value

 

We're about to waste what is probably the best starting rotation this franchise has had during this run. With a few additions we could be looking at another run yet Shapiro is allowing payroll to go unused.