Westhead: Shapiro Told Blue Jays Payroll To Be $140MM+

[TilsonBritoFan]

Goins is 1 yr older and provided 1.5 WAR in 428 PA this year. The younger Hech provided 3 WAR in 499 PA.

 

And you would take Goins before Hech. You might want to rethink that.

 

I think both will be backup calibre next year. If u think Hech or Goins is going to be an above average starting SS going forward you might want to rethink that.

[burlingtonbandit]

So are you taking my bet?

[GD]

Goins over Hech? LOL

 

3 WAR shortstop? pft

[TilsonBritoFan]

Goins is 1 yr older and provided 1.5 WAR in 428 PA this year. The younger Hech provided 3 WAR in 499 PA.

 

And you would take Goins before Hech. You might want to rethink that.

 

That's funny because according to Baseball Reference, Goins was 2.7 WAR and Hech was 2.1.

 

Goins 2015 age 27: .672 OPS in 428 PA. Career .611 over 742 PA

Hech 2015 age 26: .689 OPS in 499 PA. Career .638 over 1788 PA

 

Both players have shown they can't hit a lick, with most of their value produced with the glove.

 

If anything, Hech has proven he sucks with the bat in a larger sample size. Goins in a smaller sample size so maybe he has more room to improve?

 

Again, both are basically slightly better versions of John MacDonald. In an ideal situation they'd be fantastic backup middle infielders.

 

So why are you so worked up about us trading away Hech again?

[GD]

Lmfao. Comparing the roughly equal OPS, except Hech plays in that shithole that killed Ozuna, and Goins plays in RC. How to not stats.

 

Hechavarria is a better defender, at a better position, with a better bat (73 wRC+ to 66). This isn't even a question. Stop trying to make Goins into something he's not

[King]

That's funny because according to Baseball Reference, Goins was 2.7 WAR and Hech was 2.1.

 

Goins 2015 age 27: .672 OPS in 428 PA. Career .611 over 742 PA

Hech 2015 age 26: .689 OPS in 499 PA. Career .638 over 1788 PA

 

Both players have shown they can't hit a lick, with most of their value produced with the glove.

 

If anything, Hech has proven he sucks with the bat in a larger sample size. Goins in a smaller sample size so maybe he has more room to improve?

 

Again, both are basically slightly better versions of John MacDonald. In an ideal situation they'd be fantastic backup middle infielders.

 

So why are you so worked up about us trading away Hech again?

 

post of the year

[TilsonBritoFan]

Lmfao. Comparing the roughly equal OPS, except Hech plays in that shithole that killed Ozuna, and Goins plays in RC. How to not stats.

 

Hechavarria is a better defender, at a better position, with a better bat (73 wRC+ to 66). This isn't even a question. Stop trying to make Goins into something he's not

 

Christ. This isn't about making Goins into something he's not, even though he out-WAR'd Hech last year.

 

Its about you 2 trying to make Hech into something he's not.

 

For the last f***ing time: Hech is not worth losing sleep over.

 

If you think the thing holding Hech back from blossoming as a hitter is Miami's ballpark, I've got one word for you:

 

DERP.

 

Whats holding Hech back from hitting is that he can't hit.

[GD]

If you think the thing holding Hech back from blossoming as a hitter is Miami's ballpark

 

wat

 

TIL 3 WAR SS = not worth losing sleep over

[burlingtonbandit]

I don't think there is enough evidence to say Hech is a better infielder than Goins defensively. UZR and DRS like Goins much more over the last 3 years.

[TilsonBritoFan]

wat

 

TIL 3 WAR SS = not worth losing sleep over

 

 

Who is the 3 WAR SS you are referring to?

 

Goins was 2.7 this year, most of it based on defense.

 

Hech was 2.1 this year, most of it based on defense.

 

Again, neither will ever be an above average hitter. They could both play in Colorado and still would be below average hitters.

[TilsonBritoFan]

I think I know why we didn't win the World Series this year. We needed to have our answer to Alcides Escobar: Adeiny Hecheverria batting leadoff for us in the playoffs.

 

Thats what was missing. That f***ing Marlins trade cost us the World Series!

[GD]

I don't think there is enough evidence to say Hech is a better infielder than Goins defensively. UZR and DRS like Goins much more over the last 3 years.

 

A lot of that was positioning.

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2013/11/30/marlins-think-adeiny-hechavarria-is-better-with-the-glove-than-defensive-metrics-indicate/

 

Hech is probably more of a statcast guy.

[GD]

Who is the 3 WAR SS you are referring to?

 

Goins was 2.7 this year, most of it based on defense.

 

Hech was 2.1 this year, most of it based on defense.

 

Again, neither will ever be an above average hitter. They could both play in Colorado and still would be below average hitters.

 

You are citing bWAR and a strawman argument. This is no longer entertaining. Have a nice night.

[gruber92]

Lmfao. Comparing the roughly equal OPS, except Hech plays in that shithole that killed Ozuna, and Goins plays in RC. How to not stats.

 

Hechavarria is a better defender, at a better position, with a better bat (73 wRC+ to 66). This isn't even a question. Stop trying to make Goins into something he's not

 

Are you seriously using the parks they play in as anything relevant when comparing two light hitting middle infielders? I think line drive rates along with bb%, OBP type of numbers are relevant where the park is irrelevant, unless you're playing in Oakland. BTW, all of the HRs Goins hit this year were legit.

[TilsonBritoFan]

Are you seriously using the parks they play in as anything relevant when comparing two light hitting middle infielders? I think line drive rates along with bb%, OBP type of numbers are relevant where the park is irrelevant, unless you're playing in Oakland. BTW, all of the HRs Goins hit this year were legit.

 

I know, its pretty unbelievable.

 

Luckily it appears I've scared off GD so we don't have to continue this insanely stupid argument.

[TilsonBritoFan]

You are citing bWAR and a strawman argument. This is no longer entertaining. Have a nice night.

 

You are trying to argue with me that Hech is a good hitter being held back by his ballpark which is completely asinine. If only John MacDonald got to play in Colorado in his prime. Think of the potential WAR that were locked up in that bat!

 

Thanks, I will have a great night now that I don't have to continue this ridiculous back and forth with you.

[burlingtonbandit]

A lot of that was positioning.

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2013/11/30/marlins-think-adeiny-hechavarria-is-better-with-the-glove-than-defensive-metrics-indicate/

 

Hech is probably more of a statcast guy.

 

Yeah I remember reading that. But even looking at DRS Goins grades much better this year.

 

Inside Edge looks to give Goins a higher grade on the routine/likely plays while Hech is better making the even/unlikely plays. They're probably pretty close but I wouldn't say definitely one is better than the other.

[GD]

Yeah I remember reading that. But even looking at DRS Goins grades much better this year.

 

Inside Edge looks to give Goins a higher grade on the routine/likely plays while Hech is better making the even/unlikely plays. They're probably pretty close but I wouldn't say definitely one is better than the other.

 

DRS wouldn't fix this issue either. It'd have to be statcast, something that analyzes the actual actions of the player and not something that measures the outcome like UZR and DRS.

[Jimcanuck]

So are you taking my bet?

 

My original bet was Hech returns at least 9 WAR over the next 3 seasons, prorated to full seasons (600 PA). That is fair for both sides.

 

You countered with he won't hit 3 WAR in 2016, with no prorating. Only a fool would take that bet.

 

If you want to limit the bet to 1 season, I'll bet you Hech will exceed 2.5 WAR in 2016, prorated to 600 PA. For $50.

 

Edit: WAR as calculated by Fangraphs.

[saskjayfan]

3 WAR shortstop? pft

 

what was his war the previous in 2013 and 2014....too lazy to look it up

[burlingtonbandit]

My original bet was Hech returns at least 9 WAR over the next 3 seasons, prorated to full seasons (600 PA). That is fair for both sides.

 

You countered with he won't hit 3 WAR in 2016, with no prorating. Only a fool would take that bet.

 

If you want to limit the bet to 1 season, I'll bet you Hech will exceed 2.5 WAR in 2016, prorated to 600 PA. For $50.

 

Edit: WAR as calculated by Fangraphs.

 

Well I'm not betting $50 to wait 3 years from now lol. Why are we prorating to 600 PA when he hasn't accomplished that once in his career? I'll bet you $50 that he will be under 3 fWAR next year.

[Jimcanuck]

Well I'm not betting $50 to wait 3 years from now lol. Why are we prorating to 600 PA when he hasn't accomplished that once in his career? I'll bet you $50 that he will be under 3 fWAR next year.

 

Will do that bet if the number is reduced to 2.5, and prorated over 600 PA. Won't budge on this.

 

+9 fWAR in 3 years is less risk for me than +3 fWAR in 1.

 

Your call.

[BTS]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/11/marlins-talk-dee-gordon-extension.html

 

Marlins are under the impression that it might cost ~120M to lock Hech up. It seems that propriety defensive metrics and probably conversations with other teams have led them to believe he's a lot better than UZR and DRS credit him for being. He might be Simmons good.

[burlingtonbandit]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/11/marlins-talk-dee-gordon-extension.html

 

Marlins are under the impression that it might cost ~120M to lock Hech up. It seems that propriety defensive metrics and probably conversations with other teams have led them to believe he's a lot better than UZR and DRS credit him for being. He might be Simmons good.

 

lol he won't get anywhere near that.

[TilsonBritoFan]

I can't imagine what would happen here if in a couple years the Jays locked up Goins for 120 million. Haha!

[burlingtonbandit]

Will do that bet if the number is reduced to 2.5, and prorated over 600 PA. Won't budge on this.

 

+9 fWAR in 3 years is less risk for me than +3 fWAR in 1.

 

Your call.

 

I'll do 2.5 but not prorating it to 600PA. He hasn't show the ability to play over 600PA so why should the bet be dependent on that?

[Maahfaace]

I'll do 2.5 but not prorating it to 600PA. He hasn't show the ability to play over 600PA so why should the bet be dependent on that?

 

its to protect the bet from injury smarty pants.....

[burlingtonbandit]

its to protect the bet from injury smarty pants.....

 

Well I'd do 500 PA. But the player has never had 600 PA before so seems dumb to use that number. It'd be like rating Josh Donaldson's performance per 750PA.

[Frenchsoup]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/11/marlins-talk-dee-gordon-extension.html

 

Marlins are under the impression that it might cost ~120M to lock Hech up. It seems that propriety defensive metrics and probably conversations with other teams have led them to believe he's a lot better than UZR and DRS credit him for being. He might be Simmons good.

 

The Marlins are nearing the top of my list for worst run orgs.

[BananaNips]

I don't understand why they don't just dish out the cash for price + another star pitcher like greinke. The revenue and brand awareness that would create would be nuts. They would definitely make their money back.