Sources: BlueJays in agreement with Viciedo.

[Gorlak]

I guess this is a knock on letting Lind go...

 

Yeah a Lind/Valencia platoon would have been good, better than Smoak and Estrada anyway.

[Gorlak]

You think...that trade never made sense.

 

Especially since a DH that can hit righties is lacking on this roster.

[ElNik2013]

You think...that trade never made sense.

 

 

 

SP depth since they were planning on moving Happ and had engaged in talks for Donaldson which would require trading away Nolin and Graveman?

 

I don't know, while Lind mashed RHP, I don't think he had much value.

[Spanky99]

SP depth since they were planning on moving Happ and had engaged in talks for Donaldson which would require trading away Nolin and Graveman?

 

I don't know, while Lind mashed RHP, I don't think he had much value.

 

That's just crazy talk Alex.

[Gorlak]

SP depth since they were planning on moving Happ and had engaged in talks for Donaldson which would require trading away Nolin and Graveman?

 

I don't know, while Lind mashed RHP, I don't think he had much value.

 

1.6 WAR last season as per fangraphs. Hard to see Estrada surpass that as a reliever.

[Laika]

He would have value as a platoon DH, not enough value to replace Valencia though.

 

Yeah, his negative impact on team versatility would probably more than negate any hypothetical offensive upgrade against LHP.

 

Valencia's career wRC+ against lefties is much higher too.

 

The only value that Tank really carries is upside value. He has bat speed, easy plus power (double plus raw?), and true spray power to all fields. (chart)

 

At his current skill and projection, he's a liability. He'd have to figure something out to be an asset, but at least some of the tools are such that he's "one click" away from being a guy you'd want on the team.

[Angrioter]

Using a roster spot on the short side of a DH platoon is wasteful. Especially when Danny Valencia can do the job and actually play a couple of positions.

 

Only David Ortiz and the good version of Butler deserve a spot as a DH in a MLB 25-man roster.

[Gorlak]

SP depth since they were planning on moving Happ and had engaged in talks for Donaldson which would require trading away Nolin and Graveman?

 

I don't know, while Lind mashed RHP, I don't think he had much value.

 

I doubt the Donaldson trade would be considered into it since Norris and Sanchez replaced them on the depth chart. Saunders for Happ did factor into it though.

[glory]

Do people forget that Bautista and Encarnacion could draw walks and do other things well before they broke out? They weren't these hacking scrubs who just had a light switch turn on for them. They actually had talent. Viciedo has raw power, but he'd have to learn how to be a good hitter in order for that power to mean anything. Edwin and Bats did other things well before the power came on in their late-20's.

[ElNik2013]

I doubt the Donaldson trade would be considered into it since Norris and Sanchez replaced them on the depth chart. Saunders for Happ did factor into it though.

 

 

 

It may have since AA started asking Beane 'bout Donaldson in Oct, IIRC.

 

Regardless, they decided they'd use the DH spot to rotate guys there to give them days off from playing on the field. Trading Lind and Happ for Estrada and Saunders also saved them some money not only on those trades specifically, but also in replacing Melky Cabrera at a lower cost.

 

We'll also have to wait and see what Smoak does, but he's supposed to bring some defensive value (assuming Gibbons doesn't play EE at 1B).

[TwistedLogic]

Are you suggesting splits by position?

 

Yep. He was doing great as a DH, but anytime they played him in the field, it seemed he was getting on tilt and it was carrying over to the plate. That was a time where he looked absolutely atrocious on defense and everyone was trashing him about it. It could have been nothing, but I suggested it was still worth giving him a look strictly as a DH, and I think Farrell at the time also said something along those lines, that he felt Edwin was taking his failures in the field with him to the plate.

 

At the time I brought it up:

 

http://i.gyazo.com/18093876ba0331f7881d6b29b94e2936.png

 

At the end of the season:

 

http://i.gyazo.com/f6e32710cecfe60eb93f53bb18395729.png

 

People shot down the idea, saying it was only SSS and Edwin was still garbage, but I know that there is at least some truth to the idea that confidence can play a factor in performance, and as soon as Farrell decided to pull him off the field, the effects were instantaneous.

 

http://i.gyazo.com/39247f35710b8d16325db360f2a08fc0.png

 

I had just started following baseball closely at the beginning of the 2011 season, so I still wasn't familiar with advanced stats at that point, but looking back, his career splits show the exact same pattern that was present in May of 2011:

 

http://i.gyazo.com/5561cba8dcb0b223df051647423cc8b4.png

http://i.gyazo.com/f741301458ec4dc2baedbe3bec7c832a.png

[ElNik2013]

1.6 WAR last season as per fangraphs. Hard to see Estrada surpass that as a reliever.

 

 

 

Hard to see Happ replicating that season, at least as a Blue Jay. Also, 1 year away from FA and Norris/Sanchez knocking on the MLB door and we know Happ would not like being moved to the 'pen. We'll have to wait and see how Estrada does.

 

 

I, for one, was hoping AA would sell high on Happ and getting Saunders in return was a coup IMO.

[GD]

I think we can all agree that not playing 3B is better for Edwin when he isn't tearing his hair out over his fielding, independent of 28 PA sample sizes.

[raBBit]

He has more than raw power. He's hit 20 HR's a few times. He has detriments but if the Blue Jays improve his approach even marginally he can hit 30 HR's in a full season. Obviously he's unlikely to get that many PA's and it would come at the expense of defense (unless he's DH) and OBP but he does guarantee a specific skill set despite his warts.

[Gorlak]

It may have since AA started asking Beane 'bout Donaldson in Oct, IIRC.

 

Regardless, they decided they'd use the DH spot to rotate guys there to give them days off from playing on the field. Trading Lind and Happ for Estrada and Saunders also saved them some money not only on those trades specifically, but also in replacing Melky Cabrera at a lower cost.

 

We'll also have to wait and see what Smoak does, but he's supposed to bring some defensive value (assuming Gibbons doesn't play EE at 1B).

 

I get the Saunders thing, but they could have moved Navarro instead of Lind, Wouldn't have brought in Estrada, but dollars would have been close. I guess the trade hinges on whether Estrada is useful or not, My bet is not.

[Gorlak]

I'll be pleasantly surprised if Estrada is worth more than 1 WAR.

[TheHurl]

The thing is, he isn't using a roster spot right now. What's wrong with depth?

 

I honestly don't believe he has to do too much to end up on the 25 though. A lot of what that RaBBit guy said is the reason. He's an effort guy who looks great at times.

 

I do think that fans are missing the biggest of the stories here. This is the first contract with a Scott Boras client since "The Paxton Incident" which makes me think Beeston really is out already.

[ElNik2013]

I get the Saunders thing, but they could have moved Navarro instead of Lind, Wouldn't have brought in Estrada, but dollars would have been close. I guess the trade hinges on whether Estrada is useful or not, My bet is not.

 

 

 

To which team (w/link)?

[Gorlak]

To which team (w/link)?

 

His return wouldn't be useful to this 25 man roster, but he's movable. Just in case money was the issue.

[TwistedLogic]

I think we can all agree that not playing 3B is better for Edwin when he isn't tearing his hair out over his fielding, independent of 28 PA sample sizes.

 

We can agree on that now. Nobody could agree with it before he broke out. Everybody wanted him DFA'd, and there were so many people that were so sick of him by then, they weren't willing to give him a shot over anything.

 

I'm sure most of his success came from his mechanical adjustments anyway, but confidence definitely seemed to be playing a role as well. I know the 137 PA sample size seems like nothing on the surface, but watching those games, there was a world of difference. He looked like a different guy everytime he was put in as a DH. If I remember correctly, he had 10+ errors in the field in the first two months of that season, and he looked like he was about to cry everytime he came up to the plate. You could almost taste the overcompensation, where he was desperate to make something happen from the plate because he was such an embarrassment in the field.

 

Anyway, thankfully they realized it and they made the change, and it all worked out in the end.

[Gorlak]

I'm just saying this team with Lind would be better than this team with Navarro.

[ElNik2013]

His return wouldn't be useful to this 25 man roster, but he's movable. Just in case money was the issue.

 

 

So it's your opinion, which is fine.

 

Regardless, they clearly decided they'd make some roster changes and that involved getting anything for Lind or non-tendering him. I do think Lind would be useful, of course, but I look at the combination of moves they made and I like it.

 

We'll see what happens.

[Laika]

I honestly don't believe he has to do too much to end up on the 25 though. A lot of what that RaBBit guy said is the reason. He's an effort guy who looks great at times.

 

I do think that fans are missing the biggest of the stories here. This is the first contract with a Scott Boras client since "The Paxton Incident" which makes me think Beeston really is out already.

 

They've also gone to arbitration this offseason and given out contracts with incentives.

[ElNik2013]

They've also gone to arbitration this offseason and given out contracts with incentives.

 

 

 

Plus they've had a decent off season where they've lowered payroll yet improved the team...makes you wonder.

[TheHurl]

They've also gone to arbitration this offseason and given out contracts with incentives.

 

At this point I picture Beeston as dead and they are doing a Weekend at Bernie's thing with him. Which of course isn't difficult considering how little the Beest did before.

[GD]

Definitely seems like Beeston is being phased out.

[Frenchsoup]

He's basically Chris Colabello with power.

 

Nothing to see here.

 

(Yes I made a cross race comparison)

 

Dayan Viciedo vs LHP 124 WRC+ with a .313 babip 16.8 k%

 

Colabello vs LHP 62 WRC+ with .293 babip 31.3 k %

 

There is a real difference there and i hate Viciedo

[jays_fever]

If he plays a single inning for us this year I'll rage.

 

What's the upside here, he may gave us a replacement level season?

[TwistedLogic]

Hurl's got a point. I felt the Boras thing was slowly dying when they drafted Hoffman, but I they were probably intent on picking him no matter who his agent was. This signing sort of reaffirms that notion though. You could argue it's a smaller signing so it means less, but we were convinced they wouldn't have even pursued a guy like Jeff Baker last year, so it's a step in the right direction.

[L54]

Dayan Viciedo vs LHP 124 WRC+ with a .313 babip 16.8 k%

 

Colabello vs LHP 62 WRC+ with .293 babip 31.3 k %

 

There is a real difference there and i hate Viciedo

 

Of course there is. Because you cherry picked vs LHP and I never said that.

 

It was in reference to both being guys who strike out a lot, don't walk much, and have little in terms of on base ability who have played corner OF/IF spots in hopes to fit their bats* into the line up.