Aaron Sanchez stud thread

[gruber92]

http://images.wisegeek.com/scarecrow-on-bale-of-hay.jpg

 

 

You go bro.

[NorthOf49]

That's not what I look like so cool story bro

 

Feel free to continue not actually arguing the point you're dead set on defending.

[burlingtonbandit]

Sanchez looks more like Hendo (not that that's a bad thing) than an ace at this point. He doesn't miss bats somehow with his stuff. At any level. I think he needs a cutter/slider.

 

I agree. The curveball is a great pitch but the velocity difference between his fastball is around 15mph which can let hitters lay off. An improved changeup will help as well as the only ones he's thrown looked pretty bad.

[GD]

Moogy is 100% right.

[Orgfiller]

Sanchez looks more like Hendo (not that that's a bad thing) than an ace at this point. He doesn't miss bats somehow with his stuff. At any level. I think he needs a cutter/slider.

 

With his fastball/sinker a third pitch would be really nice, I think a change or circle-change would be a good addition to his repertoire so hitters aren't always sitting on one pitch.

[HERPDERP]

I was going to suggest a splitter but I think his fastball already acts like one

 

maybe a cutter?

[Orgfiller]

I was going to suggest a splitter but I think his fastball already acts like one

 

maybe a cutter?

 

The beauty of the splitter is the change in velocity to compliment his electric fastball/sinker, it starts to look like a regular fastball, but then with the change in velocity hitters can look foolish, his curveball is absolutely disgusting so he just needs one more pitch, a cutter is a good suggestion since it moves opposite of his fastball.

[HERPDERP]

The beauty of the splitter is the change in velocity to compliment his electric fastball/sinker, it starts to look like a regular fastball, but then with the change in velocity hitters can look foolish, his curveball is absolutely disgusting so he just needs one more pitch, a cutter is a good suggestion since it moves opposite of his fastball.

 

One can dream that Sanchez can come up with movement like this:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/3/1/6/88205316/080514_jensen_see_ya_tw_wzher1ce.gif

[TheHurl]

Moogy is 100% right.

 

90%....he still loses 10% for arrogance.

 

You don't remember the inning I walked you through? He was consistently missing up and in (to a RHB) because he was flying open, which he is going to do with his lack of motion/effort. And the plane of his throwing motion was causing his curve to tend toward low and away. The same as his "pre-adjustment" tendencies. That's what happens when he gets out of sync with his arm. It's not happening right now. But it will happen. .

 

Joking aside I missed that analysis but if you look at my two reviews of two his minor league starts I posted that his FB misses were consistently in missed up and in on the RHB and and up and away on the LHB. Your analysis was much better but I don't think this is just a SSS thing, this has been a consistent problem of his.

[burlingtonbandit]

Here is that rundown of a DVR'd Bisons v. PawSox outing ... the only part of this that was fabricated was the pitching coach telling him he sucks. Well, I can't be sure of what he said, actually, so it might be true ... but the "yup" and burp part is actually true. From the thread where Sanchez was initially announced as a reliever for Buffalo ...

 

The Sanchez inning ....

 

Victorino (RH): Inside high called strike. Just foul bounder down 1st base line on inside fastball (would have been a double or triple). Has him 0-2. Huge curve low and outside. High and outside fastball, ball 2. Looked like an inside cutter type of pitch which Victorino pulls through the hole at SS. Not smashed, but the right spot (would have been an infield hit if the SS got to it deep in the hole running toward 3B).

 

Torres (LH): Outside high fastball. Ump says he went on a check swing. Another high outside fastball for a ball. Outside fastball fouled off. Outside high fastball fouled off. Outside curve catches the zone (looked like a ball, but close enough) and he's out.

 

Travis Shaw (LH): Sanchez is back to his habitual issue of somehow screwing up what little motion he does have. Landing too short and flying open, unable to follow through, with the ball high and wide for the first two pitches. He keeps looking at his landing position. How do you f*** up no motion? This is why you don't start straight up, and finish straight up. It's pretty basic. A third ball (a little closer to the plate, but a clear ball outside) leaves him sitting 3-0. Finally Shaw watches the first strike (straight fastball) inside and the next pitch is grooved and he takes it opposite field for the easy single.

 

Glenn is charging in LF and Victorino turns on the jets to challenge him at 3B. Glenn makes a decent, on-line throw, but it hits Victorino as he's sliding (actually shouldn't have one-hopped it with the runner coming in - had to throw it on a line to avoid that possibility). Shaw is headed to 2B at the same time. It bounces away from LaRoche a little, but he can't find it and Victorino takes off for home, the throw home is late, Victorino is safe and Shaw smartly takes 3rd on the throw.

 

Rivero (RH): Big curve for a ball outside. Grooves a straight fastball middle-out and Rivero rakes it - pulls it over Goins, who is playing in. Shaw comes in to score. Good job in the OF to cut it off and stop Rivero at 1st, but Shaw would have definitely scored from 2B if he was still there.

 

Pitching coach comes out and tells Sanchez he sucks ... Sanchez nods, says "yup" and burps.

 

Hassan (RH): Inside and high fastball for a ball. Down the middle for a strike on what appeared to be a straight offspeed pitch. Nice inside pitch with filthy movement that Hassan swings through. Huge breaker outside, but Hassan protects and fouls off (would have been a ball). Outside breaker that Sanchez hung on to too long, outside and in dirt for a ball. Inside and up fastball that Hassan gets jammed on, and fouls off his shin. He's hurt. Low fastball middle of the plate, probably a ball, that Hassan fouls off. Nice fastball low and outside part of the plate. Probably a ball, but called a strike. Nice borderline pitch the hitter can't hit.

 

Marrero (RH): Grooves the first pitch right down the middle and laces it. Goins is basically a step in from the OF grass, takes two steps to his right and back into the grass and leaps out, reaches out and back and snags the liner during his dive. Well struck ball.

 

Tough to tell without a side-by-side if his slot is up at all. If someone wouldn't have told me they moved it up, I definitely wouldn't have noticed anything, and I can't really see it just looking at it (and looking at old video). Looks about the same. Still the same old issue of missing up and in (to a RH) or up and away (to a LH). Takes talent to barely have a motion and still screw it up (actually, that's not true, like I said before - that's part of the reason you use your legs and you actually bend and follow through - consistency, and you don't fly open as often ... that's on top of reducing the wear and tear on your arm).

 

Saw absolutely nothing to make me any happier about Sanchez. Actually, I'm angrier than I was before.

 

At least your post had no bias involved..

[saskjayfan]

"Except there's nothing different. At least nothing perceptible. "

 

The Blue jays say changes were made. His performance has been better, but you're never wrong, so he made no adjustments and AA is clearly fabricating things to make his decision to bring Sanchez to the majors seem less nonsensical.

 

 

 

 

"I think I'm a fabulous judge of talent."

 

You always struck me as someone a bit short on self esteem. Way to build yourself up.

 

 

 

"You don't understand what is being said. Perhaps that's the issue. His delivery, absent the arm action, looks effortless. As in, literally, effortless. As if he's doing absolutely nothing but stepping forward, without any body effort/action that would typically accompany a pitching motion. No leg drive. No body torque. Nothing, except step forward. Everything is generated from his obscene arm action. His arm action is f***ing crazy. It doesn't lend itself to repeatability. Generally, you create the force necessary to move the arm at the speed necessary to delivery a ball to home plate by creating torque from the lower body, through the core and unleashing said force through the upper body and into the arm. There, the large muscles are doing most of the work necessary to generate velo, and the arm's job is simply to accept the force, and transfer it, essentially, to the ball. Take the stress of velo generation away from the arm, and it can more easily handle "jobs" like stabilization (it can follow its path, repeatedly). Here, his arm (and upper body) is responsible for generating a larger portion of the initial force. More stress on the arm, which is a smaller muscle base (yes, more stress, even though it looks "easy and repeatable"), and a separate force at work equals much higher probability of a less stable arm action.

 

It's not hard to understand. Yet you keep repeating that his motion is easy and repeatable. Nonsense. And there are other issues, but you can't even get past this basic point."

 

You make it sound like he steps a foot off the mound. He's striding 80 to 90%. You don't hit 99 without good rotation. There's plenty of body torque and core strength to go along with his very good arm action. His glove position looks pretty good on his follow through from the times I've seen him in the bigs. His front side isn't flying open all the time, like you make it out to be.

 

You're talking cookie cutter pitching fundamentals. All pitchers are different and have different tendencies. Not all pitchers have the same body type or flexibility either. Some pitchers need to lengthen stride lengths or shorten them, or adjust arm angles up and down, add or subtract rotation, making lots of little adjustments to posture to help them hit their release point more consistently.

 

Do I find it shocking that you think you know more than the professionals working in the blue jays organization? Those same professionals that get paid to teach baseball and have helped mould him into the pitcher he is today. No I do not. Lawyers are rarely if ever wrong..lol.

 

You're also just as likely to get arm injuries from over-striding.

 

 

 

"You don't remember the inning I walked you through? He was consistently missing up and in (to a RHB) because he was flying open, which he is going to do with his lack of motion/effort. And the plane of his throwing motion was causing his curve to tend toward low and away. The same as his "pre-adjustment" tendencies. That's what happens when he gets out of sync with his arm. It's not happening right now. But it will happen."

 

Nope, can't say I really care to remember your perceptions of one inning of work in a minor league game. There a million different funky deliveries that are successful in the bigs. So far the ball has left Sanchez' hand and demonstrated pretty good control for a guy with as much movement and velocity as a pitcher like Sanchez. Do I think the inevitable doom is coming because you say it is....nope. Look at Sale...would anyone in their right mind teach that delivery to a young kid...nope, but it works for him.

 

 

 

"I don't regurgitate anything Law says. Generally speaking, I think he's a dolt. Here, however, I just happen to agree with him, for the most part, but I came up with my determination independent of him. "

 

And the Halladay comment is silly. Outrageously so. The only thing they have in common is that Halladay finished a bit high and straight-legged. His stride was longer and you can see he bends it down and gets good push off and torque.

 

You can watch film. His stride was not longer than Sanchez'. The mound is sloped....it's impossible to have a long stride and finish high and straight-legged. What you are suggesting defies the laws of physics. Doc had the same 80 to 90% stride length that Sanchez has. Cliff Lee, Justin Verlander, Greg Maddux all had short stride lengths. Lincecum strides something ridiculous like 120%...there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

You have Sanchez pegged as a number 5 starter at best. I guess in 3 years when he is much more than a number 5 starter I will be able to call you dummy.

[HERPDERP]

Can't we all agree that Sanchez is dirty

[DuckDuckGose]

Can't we all agree that Sanchez is dirty

 

Since his call-up Sanchez has been great, his stuff is nasty and he isn't even throwing his change-up. 22yo. What's not to like?

[GD]

Since his call-up Sanchez has been great, his stuff is nasty and he isn't even throwing his change-up. 22yo. What's not to like?

 

I mean, you can read the posts on this page to see what people don't like.

[ElNik2013]

Since his call-up Sanchez has been great, his stuff is nasty and he isn't even throwing his change-up. 22yo. What's not to like?

 

 

Remember, "the Orioles suck" and s***...

[DuckDuckGose]

Remember, "the Orioles suck" and s***...

 

Trying to play off insane arm action as a negative. HUGE positive.

[GD]

Trying to play off insane arm action as a negative. HUGE positive.

 

Dear God, in what way is insane arm action a positive? What? Every time I pitch I try and use as little arm as possible. Arm action f***ing murdered my shoulder all the way down to my elbow. You should absolutely be using your lower half as much as possible and minimizing arm action. I'm shocked that this is even up for debate, honestly.

[DuckDuckGose]

Dear God, in what way is insane arm action a positive? What? Every time I pitch I try and use as little arm as possible. Arm action f***ing murdered my shoulder all the way down to my elbow. You should absolutely be using your lower half as much as possible and minimizing arm action. I'm shocked that this is even up for debate, honestly.

 

Natural plus arm speed isn't a negative.

He should be trying to use his lower half and he is.

[GD]

Natural plus arm speed isn't a negative.

He should be trying to use his lower half and he is.

 

Arm speed and arm action are very different things.

Trying and actually doing are different as well.

[CHRIS]

Trying and actually doing are different as well.

 

"Got the quote wrong you did"

~ Yoda

[GD]

"Got the quote wrong you did"

~ Yoda

 

"The problem with internet quotes is that you can never tell if they're genuine or not."

~ Abraham Lincoln.

[Chappy]

"The problem with internet quotes is that you can never tell if they're genuine or not."

~ Abraham Lincoln.

 

First I find out he was a vampire hunter and now this? Mind = blown.

[saskjayfan]

Arm action is more than arm speed. What is he using his lower half to do? Certainly not pitch. He actually used to have a motion where he used his lower half more. And he intentionally went away from that to come up with this horra of a motion.

 

one, you can look at Roy and Sanchez in freeze frame and you will see their stride length is almost identical. You make it sound like Sanchez does not push off, does not use his core or his lower half at all. That's ridiculous. His stride length is roughly 5.5 feet or 80 to 90% of his height depending on the pitch. Sure it's not 100% or more like many pitchers in the MLB or 120% plus or whatever Lincecum reaches, but he's not standing upright and throwing the ball either. You make it sound like he's 100% arm and not action comes from his lower half and core. All pitchers bodies and natural flexibility and tendencies in movements are different.

 

The blue jays staff are obviously professionals. Why did they shorten his stride length? Do they not know that this will cause him to have less control, less velocity and more strain on his arm like you have suggested? Perhaps, he actually will have more control, increased velocity and less strain on his arm because of shortening his stride length and you are incorrect. When we talk about him shortening his stride length we are talking probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6 inches on an average throw.

[Vincent]

Cool. What differences? Sure, I looked at video of both, and can discern zero differences ... but you're assuring me based on nothing but some report, that it's there. Even though we can look and see it isn't there. And performance has been better? You mean to tell me he didn't have stretches like this before? Of course he did. It's the inconsistency that is the problem.

 

 

 

Wait, so you telling me I'm a terrible judge of talent was ... what again?

 

 

 

 

He doesn't step off the mound. That'd be impressive.

 

 

 

 

All of this is cray cray. How he gets his torque is by compensating with phenomenal flexibility in his shoulder and upper back. He's so freaking back-loaded there, his oblique should be popping out of his body and his scapula should snap in half.

 

 

 

No. No I'm not. I'm talking biomechanics. You will tend toward less stability when generating thrust through smaller muscles groups, in addition to using them as a conduit of energy and a stabilizer.

 

 

 

'Kay. And?

 

 

 

Ah, an appeal to authority AND a gratuitous shot at lawyers, all in one. Looks like you've given up.

 

 

 

Well, no. But you shouldn't over-stride, either. What's your point?

 

 

 

 

'Kay, but we're not looking at Sale, and his likelihood of getting injured. And Sale's delivery doesn't tend toward less control, necessarily. But Sanchez's does.

 

 

 

 

 

Dumbest analysis I've ever read. And that includes Spanky's drunken "what the hell language is he speaking" rants. No, what I'm suggesting does not defy the laws of physics in any way. And if you actually watched film, or understood physics, or geometry, or the human body, or ... well, lots of other things ... you wouldn't say something so utterly stupid. Mind-blowingly. You could have said Sanchez is a lefty and that statement wouldn't be any more incorrect than what you asserted here. Halladay curled up (and coils up) against a straight backside of his body, and then bent his back leg a normal amount, and fired off the rubber, dragging his back foot off the rubber a few inches before his front leg finally lands (this is typical of a pitcher). He lands, essentially, flat-footed, and with a bent knee, as well. Immediately after he snaps up to a straight leg around which to follow through and uncoil around. Sanchez essentially is straight up, and then leisurely takes a stride (without comparative push off), landing toe first (also shortening his stride) and lifting his back foot up. It's virtually effortless. He's truly phenomenal in that he can generate that kind of arm speed while doing virtually nothing to generate it with his body. It looks so freaking easy. But the problem is, all of that strain and violence ... it's there ... it's just "hidden" in the upper right portion of his body.

 

 

 

You call me dummy? Me call you dummy. I don't believe I ever said what you're saying I said. I think he has a high likelihood of not hitting his ceiling as a #2. High, high likelihood. I think it's more likely he's a back-end guy or a reliever than a #2. I think it's more likely he flames out than becomes an ace. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him fight some serious injury woes involving that upper right side of his body (including the shoulder and elbow). You dummy? Me dummy. We dummy.

 

Did not read but based on the level of detail you must be winning at the internet.

 

http://glossynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Internet_High_Five7.jpg

[saskjayfan]

One, you can see their stride lengths are obviously different. B, Sanchez doesn't push off. Look here http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/blue-jays-top-prospect-aaron-sanchez-shines-in-debut-against-heart-of-red-soxs-order?ymd=20140723&content_id=86026690&vkey=news_mlb. Freeze at the 9 second mark (you can freeze at different spots on the 9 second mark to really get a good feel for this), and you can see Sanchez's foot barely moves from the rubber. There's one spot at 9 seconds where you can see he's basically making a capital A frame with his legs. They are, in fact, completely straight. He's standing straight up. His toes are still touching the rubber (but the back of his foot is in the air), and his front foot is close to landing already. He's as straight up as you can possibly be in that situation (even his upper body is fully upright). Then, as he lands, you can see his back leg is still very erect (hehehe), compared to a typical pitcher and pointed forward. His back foot is upright and by the rubber. There's no drive there. Those are hallmarks of no drive off the rubber. In fact, when his foot finally detaches from the rubber, it simply comes up in the air. There's virtually no drag there at all. It's an upward motion. Compare to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFeTmV8cZkA. Again freeze at the 9 second mark. And, again, if you stop at different spots in that 9 second mark, and then on to the 10 second mark, you can really, really get a feel for the difference. You can see, at the same point in the motion, before the front foot lands, his front leg is bent at the knee. His back leg is bent, inward, at the knee. His foot is still fully engaged with the rubber. In fact, as it progresses, you see his ankle bend under, as his lower leg bends even more downward at the knee, and he maintains full contact with the rubber, causing the ankle to flex sideways. He's in a power position there. He's loaded and engaged with the rubber. He then fires off and his back foot pushes off the rubber to such an extent, that it drags a good six inches as he lands.

 

Your commentary is legitimately nonsensical.

 

You freeze frame both at 9 seconds and Roy has very little drag. I'm sure you tell your wife that that distance is 6 inches...but I can assure you it's not. Their positions are not drastically different. I can capitulate, Roy is maybe 2 inches further out than Sanchez. All you have to do is measure the distance. It's not f***ing rocket science. You're also looking at 2 single pitches...I'm sure the length of stride varies slightly from pitch to pitch for most pitchers.

 

Just so we're clear. A pitcher with a long stride length, one who drags is foot will demonstrate better velocity, better control and less strain on his arm than one like Sanchez who has a shorter stride length. Please explain why in the f*** would the Jays professionals shorten his stride length if it was detrimental for him as a pitcher?

[saskjayfan]

You're either straight out lying, or blind as a bat. Roy's foot pulls off the rubber at least 6 inches. I'm being conservative there. It occurs right at 10 seconds (as it transition from 9 to 10 seconds). It is entirely the norm for a pitching motion. You're out of your element here. It's obvious. And, as a point of clarification, I'm not really talking about the literal "pushing off," because few pitchers actually "push off" - and it's not typically advised. It's just my shorthand way of notating the transition in a good motion.

 

All of your nonsensical talk about how many inches further his stride is ... and that's it's 2 inches ... and all you have to do is measure. You're talking out of your ass. You can't tell any of that. You can't measure that (where the landing foot hits), that specifically. Unless, of course, you're out there on the mound during a throwing session with the two, with a tape measure.

 

No one is talking about a "long" stride length. Just a normal one. Sanchez's is short. The entirety of his motion is really meaningless (relatively speaking, of course), to generating his throwing motion and velo.

 

And, once again, you're falling back on the appeal to authority. Reports say, so it must be true. The Jays changed it, so it must be good, or not abnormal, or how I'm characterizing it. Blah, blah, blah. You would have to ask them why they did it. Perhaps they felt his problems with a lack of consistency had to do with him not getting out of synch in his motion, so they'd "simplify" it by letting him rely on his "natural" arm action more. Maybe it had something to do with the load on his shoulder (he had at least one shoulder injury in the recent past), and this was their last-ditch attempt at a fix to somehow lessen the burden there, and they couldn't find a better option that was working for him. But it's stupid. It doesn't matter if God himself swooped down and gave him this instruction. "But it's God!" Don't give a poo.

 

I'm not talking out my ass. Arguing about distance is a useless argument. If you freeze exactly when his foot touches down his toe is not far from the rubber and it drags after. Roy never slid more than 6 inches prior to making contact with his lead foot his back foot slide a couple inches prior to his front foot hit and continued to slide after the front foot made contact. Roy Haladayd relative to other pitchers in the MLB, had a shorter stride length.

 

I'm not falling back on the appeal to authority, although it does aid my argument. Why would they shorten this stride length if it wasn't for his benefit? Why don't you have the balls to answer direct questions. Sanchez strides 85% to 90% of height. Do you feel he should be closer to 100% or better yet closer to 120% like Lincecum. Look at Lincecum's motion..there's a guy who drags his foot a lot prior to his front foot hitting. Halladay's action isn't anywhere close to that.

 

Would Sanchez have better control, less strain on his arm and better velocity if he pushed off more, dragged his toe and had a stride length closer to 100% or more?

[saskjayfan]

Show me where you measured this.

 

same way you measured roy's toe drag

[G-Snarls]

[Vincent]

That dinner better be on the house.

[saskjayfan]

Completely different. Guesstimating 6 inches+ of distance off the rubber, when you have a foot right there as a reference point is a lot easier than differentiating length of stride being 80-85% (or whatever your number was) from 70% or 90% or 100% or 120% of the pitcher's height. You've really just decided you love you some Sanchez, and whatever the Jays say or do is correct, and you're trying your darnedest to retrofit an argument into that pre-existing belief.

 

well there hasn't been much not to like about Sanchez so far, but it's only been 9.1 innings. It's pretty easy to argue that you same with your beliefs. You decided you did not like Sanchez based on minor league playing time and you doing your darnedest to retrofit an argument into that pre-existing belief. You think his results have been poor so in the bigs? Even if I had no zero knowledge of your beliefs or the jays pitching coaches beliefs, I would trust the Jays pitching coaches. I truly don't know what they are thinking, but if they make changes to a player I pretty much give them the benefit of the doubt because they are professionals who know more than myself. To the best of my knowledge, you've never held a position in professional baseball. If you have, I might consider capitulating on my stance.

 

I've asked three times already. I'm trying to learn from you oh wise one. Would Sanchez have better control, less strain on his arm and better velocity if he pushed off more, dragged his toe and had a stride length closer to 100% or more? Why can't you enlighten poor uninformed individuals like myself? To deny the world of your brilliance is really a shame.