Jays players discussed deferring salary to land Santana

[G-Snarls]

[Atothe]

Beeston is real f***ing idiot. He says they have a budget but no real "cap" because more revenues =more money. This ******* is saying the fans have to show more support in order to have more to spend on a team which may or may not in it come july. So much double speak to tell us they hit their spending limit.

[o2cui2i]

Beeston is real f***ing idiot. He says they have a budget but no real "cap" because more revenues =more money. This ******* is saying the fans have to show more support in order to have more to spend on a team which may or may not in it come july. So much double speak to tell us they hit their spending limit.

 

Same thing he has said for the past few years

[Atothe]

Same thing he has said for the past few years

 

Its not what he's saying its how he's saying. This guy's ******** is reaching critical mass. If the jays don't make the playoffs (which I hope they do) I hope he doesn't return.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I cant believe i never thought of that rogers blew most of the money on the NHL deal wow

 

If you truly believe this, they've fooled you then. Rogers is a rich owner sitting on one of the better situations in baseball. If they decided to not spend money, it was a decision to make higher profits and has absolutely nothing to do with necessity. The revenues in baseball now are nice, we have almost no long term commitments to players. Seriously, the baseball payroll is a mere fraction of the NHL deal.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Beeston is all smoke and mirrors. he might be able to pull a rabbit out of his ass, but he cant find a winning team with 140 Million on the table.

 

Imagine what kind of team the Rays or A's could put together for 140 million.

 

I think the Rays and As will start trending down soon because their recent success is unsustainable long term. You get a good group of pitchers going they can make up for a lot of issues that things like payroll caps cause. These kind of situations don't last forever, the Rays drew 9K fans for their third game, they basically signed players this off season with other team's revenues. Rays will have to release at least one good player next year and you aren't going to find a Myers all the time.

 

I guess you can dream about huge payrolls for these teams, but it isn't going to happen. If the Jays had a Yankees payroll right now they'd be solid contenders for sure. When the Jays DID win world series, they did have a Yankees like payroll.

[G-Snarls]

LOL Gibby

 

[G-Snarls]

Now AA's turn.

 

[o2cui2i]

I think the Rays and As will start trending down soon because their recent success is unsustainable long term. You get a good group of pitchers going they can make up for a lot of issues that things like payroll caps cause. These kind of situations don't last forever, the Rays drew 9K fans for their third game, they basically signed players this off season with other team's revenues. Rays will have to release at least one good player next year and you aren't going to find a Myers all the time.

 

I guess you can dream about huge payrolls for these teams, but it isn't going to happen. If the Jays had a Yankees payroll right now they'd be solid contenders for sure. When the Jays DID win world series, they did have a Yankees like payroll.

 

Rays wont have early picks going forward, but they pick smarter and develop a hell of a lot better than most teams.

[Angrioter]

LottOnBaseball

Sources say 5 #BlueJays – EE, Bautista, Reyes, Dickey, Buehrle – were willing to defer salary to help sign Santana

[G-Snarls]

Rays wont have early picks going forward, but they pick smarter and develop a hell of a lot better than most teams.

 

It still stacks the odds further against them though

 

Picks 1-8 work out a WHOLE lot more often than picks 22-30

[G-Snarls]

LottOnBaseball

Sources say 5 #BlueJays – EE, Bautista, Reyes, Dickey, Buehrle – were willing to defer salary to help sign Santana

 

This story won't die

[Ziggyy108]

LottOnBaseball

Sources say 5 #BlueJays – EE, Bautista, Reyes, Dickey, Buehrle – were willing to defer salary to help sign Santana

 

lol so basically the only guys who are making money this year and beyond ...

[ElNik2013]

Are they willing to defer money to sign Mr. Drew?

[G-Snarls]

lol so basically the only guys who are making money this year and beyond ...

 

Happ wasn't willing to chip in???

[Ziggyy108]

Happ wasn't willing to chip in???

 

hhaha beautiful!

[G-Snarls]

hhaha beautiful!

 

Thank you, thank you

[jays4life19]

f*** you Rogers. f*** you.

 

oh, and f*** you Guy Laurence too.

[JJippidy]

Hard to figure out the take away here.

 

They had money to add 14 million to payroll, but that's probably at the very extreme end of it and it sounds like they'd have had to crawl to Guy Laurence on their hands and knees to get it, probably while having to explain to him what baseball is, what Canada is, and what the Toronto sports market is.

 

What I see is a team that gambled that last years spending would increase revenues enough to allow them greater payroll flexibility, they lost the gamble f***ing horribly and now have little no back-up other than hoping for the best as it sounds like they only have one bullet left in the chamber in terms of adding to this team.

 

They have spent money, that's a fact, but I'm really starting to think that all this ownership did was ok a payroll boost because the risk was essentially zero given that the new TV money would be kicking in a year later.

 

I would have thought that spending would make sense financially for ownership but they're making it sound like it was always about the team needing to create more revenue before they can spend more.... again.

[G-Snarls]

JJippidy nailing it right on the head

[JJippidy]

Well, I don't want to s*** on ownership completely, they have spent.

 

Thing is I just don't think there's any vision at the top of this organization, seems like there's a boardroom full of risk adverse robots releasing funds when the numbers say they're allowed to rather than out of a desire to win, pride or good faith.

 

There's a lot of benefits to Rogers owning the team, but man in the end do I ever f***ing hate a lot of things about corporate ownership, ownership almost seems non-human/invisible and you can't ever seem to just get a simple f***ing answer on direction.

[G-Snarls]

Thing is I just don't think there's any vision at the top of this organization, seems like there's a boardroom full of risk adverse robots releasing funds when the numbers say they're allowed to rather than out of a desire to win, pride or good faith.

 

Exactly right. It's clearly become "we'll give you more money after revenues go up" rather than "we'll give you some money to make a better product, because doing so will increase revenue". It's exactly what Beeston has been intimating for 2 years.

 

There's a lot of benefits to Rogers owning the team, but man in the end do I ever f***ing hate a lot of things about corporate ownership, ownership almost seems non-human/invisible and you can't ever seem to just get a simple f***ing answer on direction.

 

Except when Beeston occasionally opens his dumb mouth and says things he shouldn't have said

[admin]

AA f***ed up. He did the same thing JP did when he got money to spend, got a boner and couldn't contain himself.

I didn't like any of these trades from the beginning and people kept saying be quiet and enjoy it. How many of you are enjoying it now?

 

He dumped a ton of our prospects for ridiculous contracts that could have been had via free agency one year earlier! So basically gave

our prospects away. I actually like Reyes and Buehrle, but Escobar will probably out produce Reyes again. And there is a chance Hech even

out produces him.

 

Now the incompetent front office is stuck with no money. You don't dump your farm and take on a shitload of contracts to almost go all

in. What the f*** is your thinking with that? If you're going to go this far, go another $15-$20M more because with that extra money you're

atleast a contender, it tells the fans something, and puts this franchise in the positive for years to come. Where we are now we 'might' be a

contender. If we don't contend this year it's going to look very bad for this franchise not only this year but going forward. Extra $20M in

payroll will hurt profits a lot less than a failing team this year, I promise you that.

 

The problem is one day they said "let's go all in". And they went all in with any moves they could find. No thinking, no planning, just go all in

and acquire whatever we can.

 

Missed out on Darvish, missed out on Ryu, missed out on Latos should have went after Cliff Lee or another big name player. Don't want to give a

big contract or pay big money for proven stars, but you're fine with paying Buehrle $20M... and giving up our prospects to get

those contracts. AA got hosed on that deal. Those contracts were even back loaded, Marlins should have been giving them away.

 

AA and his team have done a fantastic job drafting. AA has made some pretty good trades early on. But AA has made some terrible moves, whether

Rogers had a say in it or not. Sad to say it but it looks like AA should have stayed assistant GM for his wisdom but someone else had the final say

in the decision making.

[TDotttt2005]

Admin, you hit the nail right on the head with your post. This could serve as a post-mortem once AA is fired.

 

All that said, and as an update for those who didnt hear, Bob McCowan implied yesterday that he had knowledge of Beeston being against signing Santana, and thought it was a bandaid one-year solution. McCowan doesnt know if 1. Beeston said no to AA and refused to go to Rogers, or 2. Beeston deferred to AA, and went to Rogers, only to be stymied. I think its an important distinction, since what we really need to know, is whether the money was there FROM ROGERS or not. It was clearly there because Buehrle, Dickey, EE, Jose, and Reyes were willing to, and got approval to defer salary, but for AA and Beeston to just tell us 'the money was there' to placate us into not thinking Rogers capped them, is spin and untruthfulness that we really shouldnt be surprised at at this point.

[The_DH]

I know. I'd rather they just refuse to divulge rather than spreading manner.

[saskjayfan]

LottOnBaseball

Sources say 5 #BlueJays – EE, Bautista, Reyes, Dickey, Buehrle – were willing to defer salary to help sign Santana

 

I'm surprised to see Buehrle on the list. That actually makes me happy to see that. It's nice to see your leaders step up. I'm actually looking forward to Buehrle's start tonight.

[flafson]

So, the 5 players who agreed to flex their contract are Edwin, Bautista, Reyes, R.A and Buehrle.

[G-Snarls]

I'm surprised to see Buehrle on the list. That actually makes me happy to see that. It's nice to see your leaders step up. I'm actually looking forward to Buehrle's start tonight.

 

I'm liking MB more and more. I know he was upset to be traded, but he's settled in nicely.

[saskjayfan]

As I pointed out earlier, when you stated essentially the same thing ... the Jays have been receiving about $30M/year from revenue sharing. That money has, essentially, all come from the Yankees, so the Yankees have been paying for about 1/3 (or more) of the Jays' payroll for years now ... but that's just a sad aside. Under the new CBA, the Jays are being phased out of that revenue sharing until they eventually will not be able to receive anything at all. They are "market disqualified." Last year, they forfeited 25%, this year 50%, 2015 will be 75% and then in 2016 (and beyond assuming the new CBA carries this forward unchanged), they will forfeit the entire 100%.

 

The new TV money approximates this loss in revenue, in size. Which means any additional expenditures on payroll were not "zero risk" and spent out of a TV revenue windfall. It was a "legitimate" boost to payroll.

 

And, again, this is all just a slippery slope matter of perspective.

 

I remember last year, when the unexpected Marlins deal occurred. The overwhelming response from fans was sheer joy. They'd be able to compete! They're willing to spend! And then when it settled down a bit, everyone was still excited, but saw a hole here or there, and hoped that perhaps those holes would be filled. Then, suddenly, Dickey was traded. OMG! They're really going all-in! They see the AL East weakness and they're holding back nothing. All-in baby!

 

Then they failed miserably, and now people are clamoring that even more spending is necessary to go all-in (or all-iner, as they case may be ... "now with even more all-in!").

 

At what point does the all-inning end? Perpetual, potentially infinite payroll increase until they make the playoffs?

 

As someone who believes this team is more than an Ervin Santana away from competing, I'm confident that folks would be clamoring to go all-innerer in 2015. I mean, what's another $30-45M increase when you've already sunk this much into it? Can't stop now!

 

Having the ability to spend money obviously helps a team compete. Spending wisely is far more important. We spent on Johnson and it did not work out. We got hit with a ridiculous amount of injuries and things did not work out. That doesn't mean you don't continue to attempt to compete. If the team finishes within a couple games of the playoffs and Ervin has a good year the Jays upper management will have egg on their face just as much this year for not authorizing more pay as they did last year for taking that substantial leap. Spending an extra 14 mil and finishing with 78 wins is a waste of money. Not spending 14 mil and finishing 2 games out of a playoff spot is a massive miss on potential additional revenues that the playoffs could generate.

 

Baseball has way too many unknowns. You never know year to year if you will be healthy, if you will get above average years from guys, breakout years from players. For a team on the fringe competing in a tough division these decisions are not easy. I like what I'm seeing from Lindy, Melky and the rotation. I believe this team will compete without Ervin.

[JJippidy]

Under the new CBA, the Jays are being phased out of that revenue sharing until they eventually will not be able to receive anything at all. They are "market disqualified." Last year, they forfeited 25%, this year 50%, 2015 will be 75% and then in 2016 (and beyond assuming the new CBA carries this forward unchanged), they will forfeit the entire 100%.

 

The new TV money approximates this loss in revenue, in size. Which means any additional expenditures on payroll were not "zero risk" and spent out of a TV revenue windfall. It was a "legitimate" boost to payroll.

 

It's a legitimate boost to payroll because it's real cash that could have been kept, that's a fact for sure.

 

Good thing is that the Jays local revenue is well sheltered given their TV deal, stadium ownership, etc. and there will be refunds given to teams that do not receive revenue sharing going forward under the new system, they're in decent shape compared to a lot of larger markets in that respect.

 

The main point for me though was that the Jays committed payroll by then (2016) is minimal. I maintain that their investment last season was a pretty low risk one financially in that regard, it spurred a good boost in attendance, kept TV numbers healthy and the vast bulk of the teams committed salary comes off the books before the new revenue sharing takes full effect.

 

They spent, yes, but I guess that I just didn't like how they were heralded as much as they were, too much white knight and self back patting going around for me with them when that money would have looked pretty good the year before.

 

 

At what point does the all-inning end? Perpetual' date=' potentially infinite payroll increase until they make the playoffs?[/quote']

 

It ends if this season fails, which is why tightening the purse strings instead of adding players one 1 year deals seems a little odd.

 

No platoon mate for Lind, weak bench... I'm not saying to sign guys to 8 year deals and boost payroll to 180 million, but clearly the future hinges largely on this season so to invest so much then pull up short when you could have added via 1 year contracts that line up with the overall landscape = puzzling.

 

I mean I get why from a corporate viewpoint of a publicly traded company, but owning a team requires a bit more vision sometimes and I saw more reward than risk, but I guess they didn't - that's on Beeston I suppose if he couldn't sell it.

 

Even if you feel the team is more than a Santana away, which they likely are, it still makes sense to me to try and stack the deck as much as possible, I mean if this is it then go down swinging, the money would be off the books next year anyways.