Jays targetting Jeff Samardzija and/or Ryan Hanigan

[Chappy]

This shouldn't surprise anybody. I'd rather give Sanchez+Stroman for Samardzija than I would give Syndergaard+d'Arnaud for Dickey. We know that and the Cubs know that. If I was Epstein I'd be offended if they offered anything less after seeing how they opted to so readily let the Mets penetrate them last year.

 

In fairness Dickey was considered a superior SP at the time of the trade than what Shark is now. Plus Dickey came with a very team friendly deal, something I don't expect Shark to sign.

[G-Snarls]

In fairness Dickey was considered a superior SP at the time of the trade than what Shark is now. Plus Dickey came with a very team friendly deal, something I don't expect Shark to sign.

 

True. His 5M salary for 2013 in particukar seemed like incredible value at the time.

[ElNik2013]

In fairness Dickey was considered a superior SP at the time of the trade than what Shark is now. Plus Dickey came with a very team friendly deal, something I don't expect Shark to sign.

 

 

In fairness, most of us were surprised that D'Arnaud was going to the Mets and absolutely shocked that Syndergaard was too. Also, Shark has 2 years of control left and the team may be desperate. Also, D'Arnaud+Syndergaard is a better package than Stroman+Sanchez, imo. Anyway, I doubt this happens, but again, if I were the Cubs, I'd be asking for the same type of package.

[Abomination]

True. His 5M salary for 2013 in particukar seemed like incredible value at the time.

 

He posted 2 WAR while pitching injured half the year, it was incredible value (salary wise) even in hindsight.

[KingKat]

D'Arnaud+Syndergaard is a better package than Stroman+Sanchez, imo.

 

Oh definitely, two top 25 prospects one of which was considered a top 10 prospect in some circles. Sanchez and Stroman don't touch that level of prospect helium.

[mci13]

This shouldn't surprise anybody. I'd rather give Sanchez+Stroman for Samardzija than I would give Syndergaard+d'Arnaud for Dickey. We know that and the Cubs know that. If I was Epstein I'd be offended if they offered anything less after seeing how they opted to so readily let the Mets penetrate them last year.

 

I disagree. I would rather do Syndergaard+d'Arnaud for Dickey than Sanchez+Stroman for Samardzija. With Dickey you get an ace with a proven track record signed to a below market extension for 4 years (3 excellent seasons with over 200 IP except 2010). Samardzija only has 2 years of control and you likely pay a lot for the extension.

 

Also, part of Samardzija's appeal is his potential to get better, which is also what AA was hoping for with Dickey. I remember during Dickey's press conference AA was talking about how he thought Dickey could be even better than his Cy Young season because he developed the ability to use knuckleball as a strikeout pitch. RA Dickey also has lots of defensive value, and of course the "RA Dickey effect" potential. The deal obviously wasn't great, but I think people are starting to underrate RA Dickey.

[KingKat]

I disagree. I would rather do Syndergaard+d'Arnaud for Dickey than Sanchez+Stroman for Samardzija. With Dickey you get an ace with a proven track record signed to a below market extension for 4 years (3 excellent seasons with over 200 IP except 2010). Samardzija only has 2 years of control and you likely pay a lot for the extension.

 

Also, part of Samardzija's appeal is his potential to get better, which is also what AA was hoping for with Dickey. I remember during Dickey's press conference AA was talking about how he thought Dickey could be even better than his Cy Young season because he developed the ability to use knuckleball as a strikeout pitch. RA Dickey also has lots of defensive value, and of course the "RA Dickey effect" potential. The deal obviously wasn't great, but I think people are starting to underrate RA Dickey.

 

I'm in the minority in this belief but I actually think the Dickey trade was more defensible than the Marlins trade. The notion that you could lock up an ace cheaply had to have a lot of appeal to AA especially after being spurned by free agents. Dickey turned out not to be an ace but AA is hardly the only one who thought Dickey might not follow the usual pattern of regression because he's a knuckleballer. And an important difference between the two trades is the context. The Dickey trade doesn't happen if the Marlins trade didn't happen first. AA had just giving away a huge chunk of his prospect capital, a bunch of controlable Major League assetts and most of his payroll flexibility, he wanted to make damn sure his all-in move was going to work. Not only did he need Dickey but he needed more. He should have traded Sanchez too, got a catcher and a 2B, and gone all in for real not half-ass it. I didn't agree with the direction AA took with the Marlins trade but once it was done, he didn't have much choice but to keep making moves with the same goal in mine.

[mci13]

It was more about the huge difference in value of Syndergaard+d'Arnaud over Sanchez+Stroman than it is about the difference between Dickey and Shark.

 

It was clearly an overpay, but I think you can also argue that d'Arnaud has serious injury concerns and Syndergaard always had an elite fastball but had some concerns about his secondary pitches (Obviously he made huge strides last year). Either way, Dickey's value last year coming off a Cy Young and multiple ace quality seasons and willingness to sign an extension make him immensely more valuable than Shark this year. So the Cubs can't expect to get the same package as the Mets.

 

Also, you have to consider that the only reason why the Mets got the package they did was because Dickey agreed to a below market extension. If Dickey hadn't agreed to the extension the Jays never would have made that trade. I doubt the Cubs offer the same negotiating opportunity, and even if they did Shark has rejected extension offers from them for the past couple of seasons.

[G-Snarls]

I'm in the minority in this belief but I actually think the Dickey trade was more defensible than the Marlins trade. The notion that you could lock up an ace cheaply had to have a lot of appeal to AA especially after being spurned by free agents. Dickey turned out not to be an ace but AA is hardly the only one who thought Dickey might not follow the usual pattern of regression because he's a knuckleballer. And an important difference between the two trades is the context. The Dickey trade doesn't happen if the Marlins trade didn't happen first. AA had just giving away a huge chunk of his prospect capital, a bunch of controlable Major League assetts and most of his payroll flexibility, he wanted to make damn sure his all-in move was going to work. Not only did he need Dickey but he needed more. He should have traded Sanchez too, got a catcher and a 2B, and gone all in for real not half-ass it. I didn't agree with the direction AA took with the Marlins trade but once it was done, he didn't have much choice but to keep making moves with the same goal in mine.

 

The complete misjudgement at the catcher position doesn't help the optics of the trade. The fact that JP Arencibia had such an abysmal year and was released for nothing makes the loss of D'Arnaud MUCH more painful. Gose and Syndergaard would have been much more palatable (with some benefit of hindsight)

[G-Snarls]

I am almost of the mindset that the jays cannot trade and come out better

 

They will lose in every trade. Either sign free agents or call it a off season

 

I rather see stroman start then this cubs pitcher

 

I am of the mindset that you should take a self-imposed break from this board

[Chappy]

I am of the mindset that you should take a self-imposed break from this board

 

Or you could just impose the break on him

[Abomination]

The complete misjudgement at the catcher position doesn't help the optics of the trade. The fact that JP Arencibia had such an abysmal year and was released for nothing makes the loss of D'Arnaud MUCH more painful. Gose and Syndergaard would have been much more palatable (with some benefit of hindsight)

 

I'm still not upset about d'Arnaud. Maybe he ends up being great, but his injury history is terrible and when he was with us in the minors his walk totals were kinda JPA like. The throwing arm was better. It's highly doubtful he can stick behind the plate, and whether or not he provides reasonable value at 1st or DH is anyone's guess. Syndergaard I hated losing, but I think there is a good chance that Dickey in the 4 years we have him (including last year mind you) puts up higher WAR at the MLB level than Syndergaard does. After that of course it likely changes.

 

I'm not trying to say we didn't overpay for Dickey, because we clearly did.

[G-Snarls]

Or you could just impose the break on him

 

He annoys but does nothing ban worthy

[G-Snarls]

If you have a disagreement with me make your point

 

You are annoying as f***

 

There, that's my point

[mci13]

I'm in the minority in this belief but I actually think the Dickey trade was more defensible than the Marlins trade. The notion that you could lock up an ace cheaply had to have a lot of appeal to AA especially after being spurned by free agents. Dickey turned out not to be an ace but AA is hardly the only one who thought Dickey might not follow the usual pattern of regression because he's a knuckleballer. And an important difference between the two trades is the context. The Dickey trade doesn't happen if the Marlins trade didn't happen first. AA had just giving away a huge chunk of his prospect capital, a bunch of controlable Major League assetts and most of his payroll flexibility, he wanted to make damn sure his all-in move was going to work. Not only did he need Dickey but he needed more. He should have traded Sanchez too, got a catcher and a 2B, and gone all in for real not half-ass it. I didn't agree with the direction AA took with the Marlins trade but once it was done, he didn't have much choice but to keep making moves with the same goal in mine.

 

I also think it is a little more defensible, especially if you consider the marginal value of wins. I think Dickey will rebound back to being a number #2/#3 with ace potential. He was only bad for half a season last year when he was pitching through a back injury where he clearly couldn't throw his strikeout pitch, control the ball, and was adjusting to the Rogers Center. In the second half we saw his K% go up and BB% drop significantly back to the levels during his Cy Young season. His HR/9 was still high, and its something he needs to adjust for in the Rogers Center, but you see him trying to understand whether to pitch with the roof open or closed and he made adjustments like no longer using the high knuckleball for strikeouts. I don't think the Dickey trade was as awful as its made out to be, especially if we were to believe in the Dickey Effect (+1.4 WAR), his defense (+0.7 WAR), 200 + IP/yearly, and control for 3 more years at Ricky Nolasco money.

[G-Snarls]

You're just a bully.

 

OMG I am so not a bully

 

And you are *deliberately* annoying, just like you were on the old board. For some sick reason you seem to just like annoying people and actually like getting told off or something. I don't get it, I really don't.

[G-Snarls]

God dammit I can't keep going with this. It's 1 AM and I have to work like 30 hours this weekend. Gotta go to bed. Enough.

[mci13]

I'm still not upset about d'Arnaud. Maybe he ends up being great, but his injury history is terrible and when he was with us in the minors his walk totals were kinda JPA like. The throwing arm was better. It's highly doubtful he can stick behind the plate, and whether or not he provides reasonable value at 1st or DH is anyone's guess. Syndergaard I hated losing, but I think there is a good chance that Dickey in the 4 years we have him (including last year mind you) puts up higher WAR at the MLB level than Syndergaard does. After that of course it likely changes.

 

I'm not trying to say we didn't overpay for Dickey, because we clearly did.

 

d'Arnaud will hit in majors, the question for him is can he stay healthy. I think the consensus is that the bat is special for catcher, but his value decreases a lot if he has to move to first base. Syndergaard obviously made huge strides last year with his secondary pitches and was developed well by the Mets organization, but I'm still shocked that they traded him. Especially since he was apparently untouchable in the Gio Gonzalez trade talks.

[Boxcar]

OMG I am so not a bully

 

And you are *deliberately* annoying, just like you were on the old board. For some sick reason you seem to just like annoying people and actually like getting told off or something. I don't get it, I really don't.

 

I dunno why you guys just haven't banned him yet. I'm pretty sure being an intolerably annoying ******** is grounds for a ban.

[G-Snarls]

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

LOL

 

Thank you for making me laugh before going to bed.

 

Night, yo

[z3r0s]

^Syndergaard will be the next Carpenter

 

And that trade will haunt the organization for a decade

 

I clearly remember my jaw physically dropping when the 'second prospect' in the deal turned into syndergaard. It made my stomach sank. He was always my favourite of lansing 3. He was the mid-point between Nicolino and Sanchez... A combo of stuff and control.

[KingKat]

The complete misjudgement at the catcher position doesn't help the optics of the trade.

 

I can totally understand being hesitant to commit to D'Arnaud because of his health issues and judging that it was a good time to trade him. I can't justify the commitment to JPA. Who would have predicted that the best option for 2013 would have turned out to be Yan Gomes?

[G-Snarls]

I can totally understand being hesitant to commit to D'Arnaud because of his health issues and judging that it was a good time to trade him. I can't justify the commitment to JPA. Who would have predicted that the best option for 2013 would have turned out to be Yan Gomes?

 

Exactly. D'Arnaud was not ready to catch a (supposedly) contending team on opening day. My issue was more with the blind faith that JPA was going to be good enough, and then NOT having regular coaching for him. Egregious.

 

No one would have counted on Gomes

[Frenchsoup]

Exactly. D'Arnaud was not ready to catch a (supposedly) contending team on opening day. My issue was more with the blind faith that JPA was going to be good enough, and then NOT having regular coaching for him. Egregious.

 

No one would have counted on Gomes

 

I feel like Gomes would have been able to catch the knuckler to. I think we are going to find out in these next couple of years that JPA is the only one who can't catch it.

[KingKat]

No one would have counted on Gomes

 

Nope but his versatility made it such that you could actually carry him as a third catcher. That would have been a godsend in 2013. I can't blame AA for not seeing his offensive breakthrough coming. I doubt the Cleveland Indians even saw that coming. What the Indians did see and what it seems to me that AA should have seen is just how great Gomes is behind the plate. I remember seeing catch for Brazil in the WBC qualifying and thinking "that guy looks incredibly quiet and smooth back there." I thought it was just me but then the framing data came out and it supports that impression. He's a great catcher and the Indians seem poised to further commit to him. I don't understand why the guy's defense wasn't better scouted by the Jays and by baseball in general. We've heard plenty about Jimenez's defensisve upside and D'Arnaud's defensive upside. We never heard boo about Gomes. It seems like because Gomes played so many positions, everyone just assumed he was Ryan Doumit back there. The guy is awesome. I would kill to have him back.

[G-Snarls]

I feel like Gomes would have been able to catch the knuckler to. I think we are going to find out in these next couple of years that JPA is the only one who can't catch it.

 

Maybe. But no one, and I mean NO ONE on this board would have thought it was a good idea to start 2013 with Gomes as even the backup to Arencibia. Thole was a better idea even though he sucked.

 

I always liked Gomes bat and his ability to be a utility player and 3rd catching option.

[KingKat]

Maybe. But no one, and I mean NO ONE on this board would have thought it was a good idea to start 2013 with Gomes as even the backup to Arencibia. Thole was a better idea even though he sucked.

 

I always liked Gomes bat and his ability to be a utility player and 3rd catching option.

 

Gomes must have still had options though. What a waste it was to trade him away. It's really incredible in hindsight to see how much was undone by the Esmil Rogers trade. AA keeps Gomes and the Jays actually have a viable alternative to JPA on the roster. AA keeps Aviles and at least one of Izturis or Bonifacio isn't brought in. I don't think I've ever seen a trade seem so innucuous at first and then be so maddening in hindsight.

[DuckDuckGose]

Exactly. D'Arnaud was not ready to catch a (supposedly) contending team on opening day. My issue was more with the blind faith that JPA was going to be good enough, and then NOT having regular coaching for him. Egregious.

 

No one would have counted on Gomes

 

It's gone around that the Jays weren't high on d'Arnaud abd don't think he'll stay healthy. AA thought he was selling high.

[DuckDuckGose]

Maybe. But no one, and I mean NO ONE on this board would have thought it was a good idea to start 2013 with Gomes as even the backup to Arencibia. Thole was a better idea even though he sucked.

 

I always liked Gomes bat and his ability to be a utility player and 3rd catching option.

 

I liked Gomes, especially with a complete lack of catching depth in the upper minors. The Esmil trade was horrible.

[KingKat]

It's gone around that the Jays weren't high on d'Arnaud abd don't think he'll stay healthy. AA thought he was selling high.

 

We still don't know that he didn't. D'Arnaud reportedly drew rave review for his catching in his Mets audition but he also continued to encounter health issues. He may go down as one of those guys who teased the game with unfufilled potential. AA definitely did not sell high on Syndergaard though. At least from a prospect capital perspective anyways. AA would be way better off if he still had Syndergaard to shop around this off-season instead of Sanchez.