Can Ryan Goins stick?

[gruber92]

Do you actually have any insight on this? It would be cool to know why they decided to acquire him.

 

If you actually listen to commentary during games then you would know. Buck mentioned a while back that the Rays' organization approached Loney and told him to be the type of hitter he is more comfortable with, opposed to the Dodgers wanting him to hit for more power.

[bzapple]

This team has to try and win again next season with the way the current roster is built. Going into next season with Ryan f***ing Goins as your 2B is not an option unless you are okay with punting another season down the gutter.

 

This is an important point. Goins is an unacceptable option because this team is far past the point where they can afford to give players like Ryan Goins a shot and hope they exceed expectations. There needs to be definite upgrade at 2B and if AA fails to acquire that and goes with Goins, then that's just what he's done: failed. If you're going to be all-in, then be all-in. Even if (maybe) replacement level would be an improvement over this year's options, it's still REPLACEMENT LEVEL.

[gruber92]

This is an important point. Goins is an unacceptable option because this team is far past the point where they can afford to give players like Ryan Goins a shot and hope they exceed expectations. There needs to be definite upgrade at 2B and if AA fails to acquire that and goes with Goins, then that's just what he's done: failed. If you're going to be all-in, then be all-in. Even if (maybe) replacement level would be an improvement over this year's options, it's still REPLACEMENT LEVEL.

 

Well,2B will have to upgraded via the trade route. Kendrick will mean salary swapping (which isn't happening) unless Buehrle's late season emergence is enough for the Angels to make that trade,although giving up 200 innings will be hard to part with. Maybe the Astros would be willing to give up Altuve for young pitching in return,otherwise not much else out there. Omar Infante could be interesting maybe on a 2 year (4-5mil per),but his .04 dWAR is discouraging. Izturis would have to be unloaded.

[Abomination]

This is an important point. Goins is an unacceptable option because this team is far past the point where they can afford to give players like Ryan Goins a shot and hope they exceed expectations. There needs to be definite upgrade at 2B and if AA fails to acquire that and goes with Goins, then that's just what he's done: failed. If you're going to be all-in, then be all-in. Even if (maybe) replacement level would be an improvement over this year's options, it's still REPLACEMENT LEVEL.

 

The problem is, who is this available upgrade (assuming we can't realistically afford Cano)? Infante is really the only other name that sticks out to me from the free agent list. Maybe Ellis or Punto, but I'm not sure either would out perform what would be reasonable to expect from Izzy (ie, not what he's done this year).

 

The trade front isn't wonderful either unless the Rays decided to promote Beckham or Hak-Ju Lee and trade Zobrist. Howie Kendrick perhaps would also be in play. Aside from that, you're basically looking at either Ackley or Espinoza.

[G-Snarls]

Well,2B will have to upgraded via the trade route. Kendrick will mean salary swapping (which isn't happening) unless Buehrle's late season emergence is enough for the Angels to make that trade,although giving up 200 innings will be hard to part with. Maybe the Astros would be willing to give up Altuve for young pitching in return,otherwise not much else out there. Omar Infante could be interesting maybe on a 2 year (4-5mil per),but his .04 dWAR is discouraging. Izturis would have to be unloaded.

 

That's one of the problems. Buerhle is indispensable to this team now. They can't risk giving up a workhorse like that when the rest of the rotation is so fragile. 18M or not, and 4+ ERA or not, we need him next year.

[gruber92]

That's one of the problems. Buerhle is indispensable to this team now. They can't risk giving up a workhorse like that when the rest of the rotation is so fragile. 18M or not, and 4+ ERA or not, we need him next year.

 

True and sad.

[bzapple]

The problem is, who is this available upgrade (assuming we can't realistically afford Cano)? Infante is really the only other name that sticks out to me from the free agent list. Maybe Ellis or Punto, but I'm not sure either would out perform what would be reasonable to expect from Izzy (ie, not what he's done this year).

 

The trade front isn't wonderful either unless the Rays decided to promote Beckham or Hak-Ju Lee and trade Zobrist. Howie Kendrick perhaps would also be in play. Aside from that, you're basically looking at either Ackley or Espinoza.

 

Well, I have no delusions about getting a star or impact players for second base, when I say "definite upgrade" I mean someone who is likely to provide around league average production. Maybe Ian Kinsler becomes available (provided we even have the pieces to acquire that kind of player) but I'd be fine with a Mark Ellis type. I mean, I was fine with Izturis, but sometimes things just go wrong, and now he looks pretty cooked. It just can't be Ryan Goins, a player that any reasonable projection would have as replacement level, not to mention the optics of it all.

[DuckDuckGose]

Goins should be used as AAA depth, injury insurance because our team is fragile pussies. We should have Pillar, Gose, Goins, Stroman, Nolin, Drabek and Hutchison all starting for Buffalo next season. None of them should be on the major league roster, maybe Gose if he is a 4th outfield for us.

 

Gose or Pillar should replace Rajai (great fit but not really necessary anymore). I imagine the fifth spot in the rotation will be an open comp between Happ, Drabek, Hutch, McGowan, Stroman, Romero, Nolin and Redmond. The rest should be in AA/AAA as injury depth. The Jays should look to add at least one front end guy to the staff (Morrow, Buehrle, Dickey) for next season.

 

AA will have to go outside the organization of he wants to improve the C and 2b spots. Which are must improves for me but I could be convinced Kawasaki would be fine at 2b if enough changes are made elsewhere on the roster.

[gruber92]

Well regression has happened fast. Goins' wRC+ is down to 103, and that's on a 0.400 BABIP. All this arguing is 1-2 weeks from looking really silly.

 

Yup. That 30% K rate is looking pretty awful also.

[KingKat]

The problem is, who is this available upgrade (assuming we can't realistically afford Cano)? Infante is really the only other name that sticks out to me from the free agent list. Maybe Ellis or Punto, but I'm not sure either would out perform what would be reasonable to expect from Izzy (ie, not what he's done this year).

 

The trade front isn't wonderful either unless the Rays decided to promote Beckham or Hak-Ju Lee and trade Zobrist. Howie Kendrick perhaps would also be in play. Aside from that, you're basically looking at either Ackley or Espinoza.

 

Given that outlook, re-signing Kawasaki isn't the worst thing the Blue Jays can do. At least he pushes Goins to the minors and he is a much safer bet for replacement level production. I'm not sure the org would see it that way though given that they have the roles reversed at the moment.

[Abomination]

Given that outlook, re-signing Kawasaki isn't the worst thing the Blue Jays can do. At least he pushes Goins to the minors and he is a much safer bet for replacement level production. I'm not sure the org would see it that way though given that they have the roles reversed at the moment.

 

I really have no issue going with a glove first guy at second, as long as we address starting pitching and catcher. If we don't, we had better get someone at 2nd who can also hit.

[KingKat]

I really have no issue going with a glove first guy at second, as long as we address starting pitching and catcher. If we don't, we had better get someone at 2nd who can also hit.

 

The team needs players who do SOMETHING. This year the team got basically zero production offensively or defensively from three positions, 2B, C and LF.

[gruber92]

Huh?

 

Sarcasm. You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that Goins would regress to a 80 wRC + with a 30% K rate to go with it.

 

The way Goins turned that DP to end the game is more evidence that his D is upper level MLB caliber. I think him being on the 25 man next year is pretty much a lock,barring injury. Nobody else in the organization ( AA / AAA ) turns that game ending DP. Check it out.

[gruber92]

Given that outlook, re-signing Kawasaki isn't the worst thing the Blue Jays can do. At least he pushes Goins to the minors and he is a much safer bet for replacement level production. I'm not sure the org would see it that way though given that they have the roles reversed at the moment.

 

You seriously think Kawasaki is a better option at 2B? For real? That statement is just as ludicrous as the way you would perceive the notion of Goins being the starting second baseman,if not worse.

[KingKat]

You seriously think Kawasaki is a better option at 2B? For real? That statement is just as ludicrous as the way you would perceive the notion of Goins being the starting second baseman,if not worse.

 

I'll take the guy who is a safer bet to provide replacement level production. Goins may be a better option for wish-casting purposes but he's not that young and he's already established that he's a worse hitter. He might have a better glove and that's it. They both kinda suck but sloting a replacement level player ahead of Goins and keeping the latter as depth in AAA is far preferable option than just going with Goins.

[gruber92]

" He might have a better glove and that's it."

 

Is that all?

 

Kawasaki wasn't tearing it up in AAA either .

[Nox]

The way Goins turned that DP to end the game is more evidence that his D is upper level MLB caliber.

 

Actually, that's just you falling victim to attribute substitution (again).

[gruber92]

Actually, that's just you falling victim to attribute substitution (again).

 

L o f***ing L

[Nox]

L o f***ing L

 

You're a wonderful poster.

[gruber92]

You're a wonderful poster.

 

I watched that game ending DP several times and watched enough ball in my day to come to a rational conclusion that the likes of Izturis,deRosa or Kawasaki would not of turned that DP. Mainly due to the fact they lack the arm strength and pivot skills.

 

What do you think?

[gruber92]

Another thing is i find it odd that there are so many on here that are quick to reply / defend posts addressed to BTS,opposed to anyone else. If you skim through this whole thread,it's alarming.

[KingKat]

" He might have a better glove and that's it."

 

Is that all?

 

Kawasaki wasn't tearing it up in AAA either .

 

Nope he wasn't but at least he still had 10 pts of wRC+ on Goins. Look we're debatting crappy options here but having someone a slightly better floor between Goins and playing time is in the team's interest. I'm not saying anything outrageous here so I don't really get the attitude.

[gruber92]

Nope he wasn't but at least he still had 10 pts of wRC+ on Goins. Look we're debatting crappy options here but having someone a slightly better floor between Goins and playing time is in the team's interest. I'm not saying anything outrageous here so I don't really get the attitude.

 

No attitude intended. I just personally like Goins as a back up option over Kawasaki,especially when defense is more relevant in a back up role.

[Laika]

Amazing. He laughs and then proceeds to more or less outline the exact cognitive bias that he was being accused of falling victim to.

 

The way Goins turned that DP to end the game is more evidence that his D is upper level MLB caliber.

 

Actually, that's just you falling victim to attribute substitution (again).

 

L o f***ing L

 

You're a wonderful poster.

 

I watched that game ending DP several times and watched enough ball in my day to come to a rational conclusion that the likes of Izturis,deRosa or Kawasaki would not of turned that DP.

 

Hint: Being greater than Izturis and co. does not = upper level MLB caliber. Objectively evaluating Goins' defense with your eyeballs is extremely complicated, so you're defaulting to simply comparing him to the team's previous second baseman, which is fine, except you aren't even aware of it and you're conflating the two (very different) questions.

[flafson]

I don't know what you guys want with Goins, right now we have 2 starting pitchers, a big question mark at C, LF and 2B. I personally don't think AA can address everything specially after we gave up so many prospects last off season. Right now, i feel the most comfortable with leaving Goins at 2B and address the other positions knowing that he will supply the defense. I'm not comparing him to McCoy because i think Goins is a better hitter (not saying he's a good hitter or anything).

[DuckDuckGose]

I really don't get why you think Goins is some defensive whiz. His D definitely looked like it played at the MLB level but he hasn't been Johnny Mac or even Aaron Hill out there.

 

Kawasaki will never be a great hitter, neither will Goins. Let's assume the bats are somewhat even. I have confidence in Kawasaki's ability to put up good at bats, do the little things right and he's hilarious to watch. I have no faith that Goins will be able to be a MLB player once the opposition makes adjustments. He's great AAA depth and perhaps he will prove himself with playing time but he doesn't have the raw talent or résumé to be given a starting spot.

[gruber92]

Amazing. He laughs and then proceeds to more or less outline the exact cognitive bias that he was being accused of falling victim to.

 

The way Goins turned that DP to end the game is more evidence that his D is upper level MLB caliber.

 

Actually, that's just you falling victim to attribute substitution (again).

 

L o f***ing L

 

You're a wonderful poster.

 

I watched that game ending DP several times and watched enough ball in my day to come to a rational conclusion that the likes of Izturis,deRosa or Kawasaki would not of turned that DP.

 

Hint: Being greater than Izturis and co. does not = upper level MLB caliber. Objectively evaluating Goins' defense with your eyeballs is extremely complicated, so you're defaulting to simply comparing him to the team's previous second baseman, which is fine, except you aren't even aware of it and you're conflating the two (very different) questions.

 

The evaluation was strictly back up role based. If care to actually read the previous posts, you should conclude to this fact.

 

"Objectively evaluating Goins' defense with your eyeballs is extremely complicated"

 

I'm not looking to put up sabermetric numbers based on his defense,however i've watched enough and been involved in enough baseball to know that as of right now,Goins is our best defensive second baseman. This DOES NOT MEAN that there aren't better options outside the organization. Is that f***ing simple enough,because you guys are making this really complicated. Lastly Goins does possess upper level defense,not elite,but upper quarter.

[DuckDuckGose]

I don't know what you guys want with Goins, right now we have 2 starting pitchers, a big question mark at C, LF and 2B. I personally don't think AA can address everything specially after we gave up so many prospects last off season. Right now, i feel the most comfortable with leaving Goins at 2B and address the other positions knowing that he will supply the defense. I'm not comparing him to McCoy because i think Goins is a better hitter (not saying he's a good hitter or anything).

 

It's great Goin's been given AB's since the games don't matter. I think he's playing his way up the depth chart. No way he should be relied upon in what is supposed to be a window of contention. If AA and co decide to take a step back next year and push the window back, then sure give Goins a full season of MLB at bats and see what you've got. I don't think anyone wants to see that though....

[Boxcar]

I know. That's been written 10 times. We've been through this so many times, he's probably nothing. But you didn't respond to my post... This org is bad, but they're not out to get you and your Sabr pals.

 

Actually, I heard that the Jays' FO openly mock stat guys.

[gruber92]

"I really don't get why you think Goins is some defensive whiz. His D definitely looked like it played at the MLB level but he hasn't been Johnny Mac or even Aaron Hill out there.

 

Kawasaki will never be a great hitter, neither will Goins. Let's assume the bats are somewhat even. I have confidence in Kawasaki's ability to put up good at bats, do the little things right and he's hilarious to watch."

 

I stopped reading right there. If you think that Kawasaki has a better fundamental base to his game,then you don't know much. I'm not trying to sound insulting but,for starters Kawasaki has a noodle arm and short arms his throws.