Brownie19

Bryant was in his first full season in the minors when Vlad was challenging for the AL MVP. That's a huge difference IMO. Bellinger is a good example - but we generally knew why he fell off a cliff. Major shoulder injury that f***ed up his range of motion. If Vlad had major knee surgery in 2022 and was playing the way he currently is - we'd all go "well that injury f***ed him over. What a sad story of a player who could have been a HOFer". To some extent - that's what happened to Chapman too with the hip injury. He's never really been the same (and is nowhere near the same story as Vlad). Jason Heyward is a pretty good example. He was the #1 prospect in baseball - advance approach at the plate, in the majors at age 20 (with success), big time season at age 22. Heyward never did develop with the bat the way most people thought he would, but he was still a 5.6 WAR player at age 25 before he fell off a cliff. IMO, Vlad was up with these types of prospects. Soto Harper Franco Miggy Acuna The other example that does come to mind is like Delmon Young - but he never did have a HUGE season of success. Same with a guy like Profar. Maybe Buxton too - but we know it's been injuries that f***ed him over.

Fair - but it certainly felt like Vlad was a level above all of those guys (except for Franco, who's a special case). He was viewed as a generational talent, who hit like a generational talent at age 22, when most college draftees are in their first full season in the minors. I think a guy like Nate Pearson groups well with some of these guys (Reyes, Whitley, Lux, Gore, Adell), while Kirk kind of does? (Moncada, Benintendi, Eloy, Meadows, Robles)....although Kirk came onto the scene so fast that he didn't have the same prospect pedigree as some. I also find it hard to group in the guys who got hurt - like Eloy, Meadows, Lewis....if Vlad was just hurt all the time, that may justify his demise a bit more (and maybe his abilities are REALLY affected by his past injuries - but nobody is reporting or talking about that?).

Yeah - there could be something to that. He's still able to generate the EV, but the bat path seems all f***ed up. I believe Bellinger had similar issues following his shoulder injury - the flexibility he needed to generate the swing he had during his MVP season simply wasn't there.

Well put - thank you. I think most grossly overestimate the impact of an in-season coach at the professional level. Could a hitting coach that works with a hitter all offseason (probably in a lab) have a major impact? I think absolutely, but players have to choose that option and be willing to make change. I'm actually not 100% sure how this works, but do the Jays employ coaches all winter long in the lab in Dunedin for players to go "if they want to"? Is that how it works? or players can go to Driveline or some alternative at their own cost? Or they can do sweet f*** all if they choose? Is that correct? connorp - so happy to see we agree on something. Preach my brother!

Springer had the same success without the trash can - including as recently as 2021, when the Jays current hitting coach (Martinez) was also...the hitting coach. Did Martinez adopt a drastically new philosophy? Did he decline as a coach since 2021 (when the Jays offense was one of the best in baseball)? I've just always felt that seemed unlikely, which feeds my believe that they have a minimal impact on the results. It's not 100% the same, but I know one of the Leafs skating coaches very well and I've talked to him about this directly - and he simply says he makes himself available to the players and does what he can - but several of them use alternative options and don't want to hear about the things they need to change to get better. When he starts to explain where they have some inefficiencies or where change is needed, they shut down and run back to their external "yes men" who tell them they are great. From all my interactions with this coach, I certainly get the impression he doesn't believe he has a significant impact on the team or their success/failure.

Bang on. I said it a few days ago. If you had 100 players like Vlad, who were the #1 prospect in baseball, then coming off a 166 wRC+, 6.3 WAR season at age 22....how many times would they become a 115-120 wRC+, 1 WAR player by age 25? Maybe 3-5 times? It feels like someone would have to actively sabotage Vlad to be this bad. I can't blame the FO for building around him and I'm not sure I can blame them for this outcome. It's been crippling for this franchise unfortunately.

Good call. What a crazy whirlwind for that kid.

Varsho in CF Teo in LF Schneider at 2nd Biggio - bench

hahaha. Exactly.

While I agree, it does still feel like you'd have to actively try and sabotage Vlad, Kirk, Pearson and Manoah to end up with what we got. Following 2021, the outcome of these 4 players has to be like a 5-10 percentile result no? The results are SO s*****, it seems incomprehensible to believe the organization could be primarily responsible for it. Are they poisoning the players? You wouldn't even expect these results from a Dave Stewart run FO. It's really insane.

Bingo. I think most often, I'm frustrated with those who just look at the results and say "see, they are bad", whereas I am much more process based. Even if you do everything right, you still fail miserably a % of the time as there's a ton of s*** outside of your control. I think that gets overlooked far too often. That said, you do need to find the balance results ultimately play some role in your evaluation of success/failure.

I'm all in favour of a full tear down. I love following young, up and coming teams and prospects. Old vet teams bore me. The chances that Manoah and Tiedemann are legit rotation guys is really slim. You can't rely on those 3 LOL.

Oh s*** - my bad. Still great to see and it will be interesting to see how he does.

It was a joke Olerud - lighten up. I do always find it fascinating to see how quick or slow it takes players to adjust at the ML level. I know it's a super SSS, but Barger is a -76 wRC+ and -0.5 WAR. That's pretty remarkable in just 5 games and 18 PA's. I'd certainly rather get Horwitz up on the big club over someone like Voggy - although there's just not enough at bats for Voggy right now anyway, so they probably want Horwitz getting full time AB's in AAA. If he had some versatility, I'm sure he'd already be on the team.

What are you confused about?

Interesting that the FO seems to be able to hire and assemble a very good group of pitching coaches who are having such a positive effect - yet the same people continue to swing and miss on the offensive side of the game. Hmmmmmm

Or just customize it. Put your own name and #69 on the back. Those guys always look so pimp.

Walker Buehler is back on the mound for the Dodgers tonight. I think it's been 20 months or something crazy since he last pitched. He's electric when healthy. Will be interesting to see if he picks up where he left off or not. Minor league numbers this year weren't great FIP/xFIP both over 5. Dodgers think he's ready though, so we'll see how it goes.

I think the reality is that each player absorbs information in different manners. I've done lessons with a pro on a driving range and at the indoor simulator with all the information. Personally, I thrived at the simulator. I loved being able to see the video, side by side comparisons and all the numbers - but as you say, for others, that would overwhelm them and they'd improve much better with a simple approach. There isn't a one size fits all approach to learning. Fully agree that the communication component is massive - as is understanding the different personalities, how they learn and what they need. It's complicated and difficult to pull off consistently.

It's an interesting thought. I think a lot of fans "think" they want fewer nerds in the FO. The reality is we may actually need BIGGER NERDS. Guys who've never swung a bat in their lives running the show - even if that means Berrios still gets pulled in the 3rd inning of a playoff game. I think a lot of people would initially struggle with that realization.

Interesting prospect. Looks like Tyler Black is a 1st base/DH who's hit at every level he's played. But he also stole 55 bases last year. I'm not sure I've ever seen a 1st/DH player who could run that much. Jeff Bagwell stole 30 bases a couple of times and Goldy used to run a bit. It will be interesting to see what Black becomes and if he does indeed run at the ML level. You have to think at some point he'll move to the corner OF if he can run that well.

To be fair - I think this is the approach in most good MLB stadiums these days. It's all about the experience - even if most of of that doesn't include watching the game. I've been to several stadiums in the upper east half of the US and that theme seemed pretty consistent. If you watch The Saint of Second Chances, you'll see this approach started decades ago. The White Sox team was f***ing horrible at baseball, but they were able to fill the stadium anyway.

That is true. I wonder if that's just a coincidence or not. It's not like I heard Semien talk about how Dante was responsible for his turn around (that saved his career). But it was Vlad's, Teo's and Espinal's best year at the plate. It wasn't Bo's, Springer's, Gurriel's or Jansen's best year. The biggest difference in 2021 is we generally had everyone hitting. The only guys that s*** the bed that year were Grichuk (545 PA's, 85 wRC+) and Biggio. I struggle with this mentality. If a player improves due to offseason changes, the Jays coaches are not responsible, but if a player doesn't improve, or gets worse, the Jays coaches are primarily responsible? Are the Braves hitting coaches to blame for Acuna's horrendous start to this season? Are the Leafs skating coaches to blame for their s***** playoff performances? It would be fascinating to see just how much impact all these secondary coaches have on the actual results. Suspect we'll never know.

I suspect that's a very good decision by the Jays. Teo's savant page gets colder every year and this could be the 4th year in a row his K% increases...

Barger's AAA success is translating so well at the ML level that it is really odd they haven't called up Horwitz yet.