Brownie19

He's right. How sad is it that even some of our better players like Varsho and Jansen have very little trade value because they have no team control left. Berrios is still signed for so long and so much, that I can't imagine getting a big haul for him. We should 100% consider cashing in on Davis Schneider right now before he turns back into a pumpkin. We won't be contending during his time in Toronto anyway. The only reason you keep him is if you're convinced he's an all star and will only gain value with more playing time to prove he isn't a mirage (and that could be the case!)

You're going to start Turner at 3rd base 2-3 times a week? yikes - he's started 3 games at 3rd all year (in 35 games). Or are you benching Vlad? The move might be to trade Turner right now for whatever lottery ticket you can get. That would free up space to see what we have in Horwitz/Barger. I support that move.

That's fair. I think we'll spend on veteran FA's on short term deals with the goal of trading them for prospects at the deadline. I just don't see us trying to buy FA's to keep "the window open" when most of the younger players (Kirk, Manoah, Vlad, Barriera, Ricky, Pearson) all s*** the bed. If we still had a young, successful core coming up, then maybe that approach would work (replace some pending FA's with new ones)...but I just don't see that working well.

I don't think any of that matters now. I guess it might for Atkins when he interviews for his next job. It's over. This team is dead whether Atkins actually did a good job here or whether he did a s***** job. This team is awful and even if they turn it around somewhat, this season is lost, which means Atkins is probably gone as the GM. The incoming GM will likely have to clean house, selling our impending FA's for whatever he can get. Rogers will likely cut payroll, which won't matter because top players won't really want to play here for the time being. We'll sign a bunch of vets to short terms deals and try and deal them at the deadline for prospects to help accelerate the rebuild. If all goes well, perhaps we'll have a young, up and coming team by 2028/29. Hopefully by then Rogers will bump the payroll back up and we can start to add some meaningful pieces to contend by 2030? And that's all assuming we hire a good GM who keeps us ahead of the curve.

I don't know man. There are just too many teams that have tried to buy their way out of tough situations, only for it to blow up in their faces. It's even failed for the Yankees, who haven't been buying their way to division titles and championships very well since about 2013. Those guys finished 1st or 2nd in the division 18 of 19 seasons (including 1st 14 times between 1994 and 2012). And although we've been able to attract some good FA's over the past 4 years, we had all kinds of issues with that over the past 30 years. If the core is gone, I don't think we'll attract the top FA's. Overpaying for middling FA's isn't going to end well for this team (IMO).

Huh? Why do you say that? Those are the 2 options I see that would save the Jays from facing several years of 4th or 5th place finishes. You see other options?

100% Term. I honestly don't see an avenue to an alternative unless something crazy happens. We either need Vlad and Kirk to do a 180 and revert back to their young, all star levels and 2021 Springer to show up (like almost immediately), or we're going to need 2 f***ing NOBODY'S magically turn into Bautista/EE. Like suddenly Biggio and Horwitz become annual all-star players overnight.

Even if we do magically find the next Top 5 FO in baseball - if the system is as f***ed up as some of you believe, it's going to take YEARS to fix it and then YEARS before we start to see the results. And even if we do, inevitably, some of those new top prospects are going to fail and we'll be looking for that new combination of hitting on top prospects all at the same time, coupled with the Owners desire to spend money. There's a decent probability we'll swing and miss a few times on that. Some seem to think we'll just let Vlad/Bo walk or trade them and then we'll just sign Soto, Adames and Pete Alonso and we'll still be contenders. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Nobody is going to want to sign here if our FO is s*** and our core is gone. Even if they did - the chances of us becoming the Angels is really high (and man do I ever feel bad for them. Draft the best player in baseball, sign stars like Pujols, Rendon and Ohtani and it all still blows up in their face).

It's crazy to think how the landscape of sports in Toronto has changed so much. Raps were won of the best franchises in the NBA throughout the 2010's, including a championship in 2019 Jays make some serious noise (for the first time in 20+ years) in 2015/16 and then again in 2020-2023. We have a potential generational player in Vlad and a great sidekick in Bo. Leafs land the #1 overall pick, land a franchise player in Matthews and create this exciting core with Marnier, Nylander, JT, Rielly, etc. and from like 2019-2023 it looked like the pieces could finally be in place to win a cup or at least sustain a window of contention. and now....in 2024, it's all over. We are probably entering a period of darkness. It certainly seems like none of these teams will contend again, or even be interesting again until the turn of the decade (with the Leafs potentially being the exception - although I'm not sure why anyone would ever be optimistic about them). What a f***ing s***** time to be a sports fan in this area. Kids in Ontario may either find new teams to cheer for, or they may not get into any of these sports because of how s***** the local teams are. This could also reduce the number of kids who sign up to play sports. It's really terrible timing that all 3 teams are at the crossroads at the same time.

Are those good moves that an elite FO makes? or no?

I think everyone should prepare themselves for YEARS of misery. I mean what at the chances the new GM is even good? Like 50% There's a good chance we hire a boob who makes this worse and suddenly we're the White Sox - who not so long ago were flush with great young players and prospects themselves. There's a good probability we're a last place team until the turn of the decade.

Watching the game, it looked like he was throwing 2 different sliders. One was more of a "get me over" pitch and then there was a much better one that had a completely different shape and looked dirtier. I have no idea if he had any control over which one he threw, or was trying to do that at all though. Apparently they all sucked. 118 to 79 is baffling. They must be able to analyze his extension, release point, pressure points, etc. I'd love to know what's going on with him. Something is tangibly different though - this isn't a mental issue. I have heard of pitchers "losing" a pitch, but I suspect in today's age, that's MUCH less likely to happen. So bizarre.

Good - we need a better draft position anyway

I believe Rogers was involved in the decision to try and patch up the ship in 2017. They wanted fans in the seats after 2015/16 (can't blame them to be honest). I hope this board is prepared for years and years of terrible baseball. Attendance and payroll is going to plummet. I just hope my 8 year old experienced enough winning to sustain his love for the Blue Jays (and I think it will). I'd like to thank Shatkins for giving him playoffs in 3 or 4 season (and a super exciting 2021 in the other non-playoff season). Winning in the playoffs is a crapshoot (look at the 84 win Dbacks last year) - it really sucks that Vlad, Kirk, Manoah and Pearson all s*** the bed (this is honestly like a 5th percentile outcome). We had a real chance to be legit winners here, but that time as now passed. Bring on the misery.

c'mon...serious? yikes.

What? This is a new level of thinking that I'm not familiar with.

Anyone know what Manoah's Stuff+ was yesterday. I don't yet know where to find stuff like that.

by moronic fans who know little to nothing about baseball - yes.

You want Horwitz on the team getting 1 start every 7-8 games? That's not a great idea....and very likely the reason it hasn't happened.

I 100% believe this will be the chosen path. 85 win teams bring fans to the seats and make the team money. I think fans overestimate just how much owners really care about winning the world series. This is board is going to go berserk over these decisions, which will be hilarious. We'll eventually bring in a new GM and we'll sell off whatever we can and we'll all get excited by all our prospects - only to watch most of them become flaming piles of s*** - just like we have with Vlad, Kirk, Pearson, Manoah, DJ Davis, Groshans, Zeuch, Harris, Hoffman, Pentecost, Warmouth, Ricky, Moreno, Snider, JPA, Lawrie, etc. If we try to buy our way out of this - it seem inevitable we'll eventually swing and miss and end up with a Baez, Pujols, etc. situations on our hands. We've seen teams try to build through free agency and it almost always fails....so we should probably drop payroll back to like $80-$100M while we go through this rebuild. Those who hate this FO and what they've done over the past 5 years may soon realize how much more they prefer watching an 85-90 win team that never really "goes for it". s*** will probably get really ugly around here. It might be 2030 by the time we even consider the playoffs again.

This horrible FO must have already ruined him.

Just pointing out what the best FO in baseball is doing with their former ace who's been sketchy in AAA also...

Gurriel down to 94 wRC+ Such a streaky hitter.

Please god no. Just put him on the iggy list and move on please.

Moreno is down to .229 average, 90 wRC+ and zero power. Walking more is about the only positive. Perhaps we did ultimately keep the best catcher - Jansen