[Davidi] The industry seems to have treated the Blue Jays like the party guest who’s a two at 10 p.m. just waiting to become someone’s 10 at 2 a.m.

[Terminator]

4 minutes ago, BatFlip said:

I'm not sure about the whole "doesn't perform under pressure" thing, but the multiple examples of lackadaisical base running when everything was on the line really pissed me off.   

The big red flag for me is the physical preparation he's displayed paired with his big bones and natural appetite.

There's no way you go $400M for this guy, but that's just my opinion and I'm glad I'm not making the call on this one.  My fear is that he goes on to another team and puts together a hall of fame hitting resume.  I'll then get to read, on a daily basis, the ranting and raving from the resident peanut gallery (who said he should be salary dumped 7 months ago) about how they knew this is how things would turn out.

 

 

Yeah they are probably screwed either way with Vlad.

Don't re-sign him and he's a Top 10 hitter the next 5+ years somewhere, possibly with the Red Sox. Fans are livid.

Sign him and the final 5+ years of the deal are a major albatross. 

[Carlos Danger]

50 minutes ago, max silver said:

The Vlad is only good when it doesn't count theory is great until you remember that Vlad's best ever season came in 2021 when the team was in the thick of the playoff hunt under maximum pressure due to how close the race was.

As mentioned in my post though, he had Semien there. He wasn’t the grand poo ba.  All the burden and expectations weren’t on him. Springer, Semien, Bo tearing it up, Teo, Chapman. Vlad could relax and do his thing. 

 

Start of 2024 it was all about the “Core” and Springer and Bo were MIA leaving poor Vlad as the one and only “core”. 

 

[max silver]

Just now, Carlos Danger said:

As mentioned in my post though, he had Semien there. He wasn’t the grand poo ba.  All the burden and expectations weren’t on him. Springer, Semien, Bo tearing it up. Teo, Chapman. Vlad could relax and do his thing. 

 

Start of 2024 it was all about the “Core” and Springer and Bo were MIA leaving poor Vlad as the one and only “core”. 

 

This argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me either way. Vlad has performed up to his peak level when surrounded by a juggernaut team (2021) and when on a poor offensive squad (2024). The team didn't really hit the skids until early June as they were hovering around the .500 mark until then, and Vlad started performing very well towards the end of April so his turnaround largely started happening before the season was effectively over. 

[max silver]

9 hours ago, Carlos Danger said:

You are correct. However, in addition to the lack of run support there were comments by Bo, Berrios and even the FO that basically there were communication issues and there also needed to be improvement on how information is communicated from everything to game prep to the Berrios situation. Then, there was the question if John really made that decision with insiders across the board saying the FO created the environment that basically put his back up against the wall. 

The cherry on top and my last straw with Atkins when he lacked integrity, leadership and professionalism and thew John  under the bus in the press conference.

Ross was dead to me from that point on. 

One of Ross's bigger weaknesses has been his inability to clearly communicate to the media and apparently this extends to his players as well at times. I can see the argument for this being grounds to eventually lead to his dismissal, but I was always more concerned with how the team was performing on the field and judging the man based on the success or failure of his attempts to improve his squad. After the disastrous 2024 showing of the team I was more than happy to see him shown the door, but I still believe him when he said he wasn't aware of when Berrios was going to be pulled in the playoffs. Everyone involved has been saying the same thing in that it was fully up to Schneider regarding when to make the switch, so I see no benefit for Atkins to fall on his sword to placate an angry fanbase when it wasn't his decision that had the fanbase so angry in the first place.

[wilko]

23 minutes ago, BatFlip said:

I'm not sure about the whole "doesn't perform under pressure" thing, but the multiple examples of lackadaisical base running when everything was on the line really pissed me off.   

The big red flag for me is the physical preparation he's displayed paired with his big bones and natural appetite.

There's no way you go $400M for this guy, but that's just my opinion and I'm glad I'm not making the call on this one.  My fear is that he goes on to another team and puts together a hall of fame hitting resume.  I'll then get to read, on a daily basis, the ranting and raving from the resident peanut gallery (who said he should be salary dumped 7 months ago) about how they knew this is how things would turn out.

 

 

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. 

[mphenhef]

Shi proving once again that he is a modern day Shakespeare.  I love that analogy but hate that it is true about my favourite team.

[Carlos Danger]

1 hour ago, max silver said:

This argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me either way. Vlad has performed up to his peak level when surrounded by a juggernaut team (2021) and when on a poor offensive squad (2024). The team didn't really hit the skids until early June as they were hovering around the .500 mark until then, and Vlad started performing very well towards the end of April so his turnaround largely started happening before the season was effectively over. 

On May 15th the Jays were 9 games out, last in the East and had a worst record of everyone in the East and Central with the exception of the White Sox.  Not sure where they were in the WC but 85% of the Teams were ahead of them. 

Vladdy had 2 HRs in May, vs 3 HRs in April. He had 5 doubles in both April and May. Vladdy started getting more hits and RBIs in May but we still debating on the board if we want to pay $250-$300 million (wow) at the time to a Luis Arreaz type.

Vlad really didn't take off with power until June. It's somewhat semantics and just one data point in the totality of evaluating Vlad's value. However I recall when we thought Vladdy had turned into a high propensity singles hitter.

[Jays24]

1 hour ago, max silver said:

One of Ross's bigger weaknesses has been his inability to clearly communicate to the media and apparently this extends to his players as well at times. I can see the argument for this being grounds to eventually lead to his dismissal, but I was always more concerned with how the team was performing on the field and judging the man based on the success or failure of his attempts to improve his squad. After the disastrous 2024 showing of the team I was more than happy to see him shown the door, but I still believe him when he said he wasn't aware of when Berrios was going to be pulled in the playoffs. Everyone involved has been saying the same thing in that it was fully up to Schneider regarding when to make the switch, so I see no benefit for Atkins to fall on his sword to placate an angry fanbase when it wasn't his decision that had the fanbase so angry in the first place.

But this team also did the same idiotic thing in 2020 against the Rays when Montoyo was Manager.  It definitely seems like an organizational strategy than Schnieder doing something stupid like that alone.  Don't get how communication is this hard throughout your organization to your key personnel. 

[Omar]

17 hours ago, Nexii said:

Anyone can efficiently spend on free agents, it isn't rocket science thanks to sabermetrics.

I give them a 2/10. No team spent more and had fewer wins. Good young playplayers are the only way to win. Free agency is more like a top up, a few wins on the curve maybe. 

And even with free agency, they haven't convinced ownership to spend in accordance to the Jays market size. In all likelihood Jays are the biggest TV market by a lot. They should be top 3 payroll at least 

The Dodgers won with Ohtani, Betts, Teoscar, Freeman, et al.  Hardly a top up. 

[Brownie19]

1 minute ago, Omar said:

The Dodgers won with Ohtani, Betts, Teoscar, Freeman, et al.  Hardly a top up. 

Phillies have a similar core.  Built through free agency.

[max silver]

 

26 minutes ago, Carlos Danger said:

On May 15th the Jays were 9 games out, last in the East and had a worst record of everyone in the East and Central with the exception of the White Sox.  Not sure where they were in the WC but 85% of the Teams were ahead of them. 

Vladdy had 2 HRs in May, vs 3 HRs in April. He had 5 doubles in both April and May. Vladdy started getting more hits and RBIs in May but we still debating on the board if we want to pay $250-$300 million (wow) at the time to a Luis Arreaz type.

Vlad really didn't take off with power until June. It's somewhat semantics and just one data point in the totality of evaluating Vlad's value. However I recall when we thought Vladdy had turned into a high propensity singles hitter.

I believe the Blue Jays were hovering around the .500 mark right until early June, which still had them within a stone's throw of a wild card spot. 

I simply don't get comparing Vlad's month of May last season to Luis Arraez. That would be a great comparison if Arraez was capable of running an average exit velocity of 95 MPH in a singular game, let alone over an entire month of play. It was apparent at the time that literally all it was going to take for Vlad to go on a massive heater was an incremental improvement to his launch angle as he was regularly crusing line drives off of the outfield walls. 

[max silver]

9 minutes ago, Jays24 said:

But this team also did the same idiotic thing in 2020 against the Rays when Montoyo was Manager.  It definitely seems like an organizational strategy than Schnieder doing something stupid like that alone.  Don't get how communication is this hard throughout your organization to your key personnel. 

I apparently have an entirely different recollection of that particular game than you do. I think that was brilliant strategy as Matt Shoemaker was hardly some kind of ace pitcher that should be given extended rope in a playoff game. Ray came in and pitched a great 3 innings, and the team obtained 6 innings of 1 run ball combined from these two pitchers, that's a fantastic outcome as neither of them were having very good seasons in 2020. The mistake was bringing in a middle reliever in AJ Cole in the late innings of a close playoff game, not the pitching strategy that led up to that point. 

[Brownie19]

1 minute ago, max silver said:

I apparently have an entirely different recollection of that particular game than you do. I think that was brilliant strategy as Matt Shoemaker was hardly some kind of ace pitcher that should be given extended rope in a playoff game. Ray came in and pitched a great 3 innings, and the team obtained 6 innings of 1 run ball combined from these two pitchers, that's a fantastic outcome as neither of them were having very good seasons in 2020. The mistake was bringing in a middle reliever in AJ Cole in the late innings of a close playoff game, not the pitching strategy that led up to that point. 

This is spot on IMO.

Fans are quick to blame decisions when starters are pulled early and that team loses, yet they often don't acknowledge when this strategy is successfully used. 

[Jays24]

8 minutes ago, max silver said:

I apparently have an entirely different recollection of that particular game than you do. I think that was brilliant strategy as Matt Shoemaker was hardly some kind of ace pitcher that should be given extended rope in a playoff game. Ray came in and pitched a great 3 innings, and the team obtained 6 innings of 1 run ball combined from these two pitchers, that's a fantastic outcome as neither of them were having very good seasons in 2020. The mistake was bringing in a middle reliever in AJ Cole in the late innings of a close playoff game, not the pitching strategy that led up to that point. 

Bringing in AJ Cole was PART of the baseball strategy.  When you take out pitchers who are already performing well, you are relying on other pitchers who you have no clue will perform on that day. 

The Jays have managed their teams like they've had elite bullpens like the Rays when we know the actual reality.  Treating players like they're robots is part of the problem.  If you've ever played a sport on any level, you know there are days you feel great and days you feel crappy, Jays have not incorporated this into their logic.  

[max silver]

7 minutes ago, Jays24 said:

Bringing in AJ Cole was PART of the baseball strategy.  When you take out pitchers who are already performing well, you are relying on other pitchers who you have no clue will perform on that day. 

The Jays have managed their teams like they've had elite bullpens like the Rays when we know the actual reality.  Treating players like they're robots is part of the problem.  If you've ever played a sport on any level, you know there are days you feel great and days you feel crappy, Jays have not incorporated this into their logic.  

Bringing in AJ Cole was not a logical move as he was probably 4th or 5th in the pecking order for the Blue Jays pen. Obtaining ace level results from piggybacking the two largely struggling starters that led up to that point was an excellent move. That should be an easy concept to understand as the bad move in brining in Cole doesn't change how one should view the previous moves that led to a very favorable outcome. 

[BatFlip]

9 minutes ago, Jays24 said:

Bringing in AJ Cole was PART of the baseball strategy.  When you take out pitchers who are already performing well, you are relying on other pitchers who you have no clue will perform on that day. 

The Jays have managed their teams like they've had elite bullpens like the Rays when we know the actual reality.  Treating players like they're robots is part of the problem.  If you've ever played a sport on any level, you know there are days you feel great and days you feel crappy, Jays have not incorporated this into their logic.  

You shouldn't have brought up that game in 2020 as "idiotic" as you've completely undermined your own argument with a horrible example.  The Jays did exactly the right thing in that game given their available pitching staff.

You're speaking like you are in the dugout and know exactly the thought process went - how do you know the Jays haven't incorporated this into their game time decisions?  The answer is, you don't.

 

 

[Jays24]

1 hour ago, BatFlip said:

You shouldn't have brought up that game in 2020 as "idiotic" as you've completely undermined your own argument with a horrible example.  The Jays did exactly the right thing in that game given their available pitching staff.

You're speaking like you are in the dugout and know exactly the thought process went - how do you know the Jays haven't incorporated this into their game time decisions?  The answer is, you don't.

 

 

Of course I don't... majority of the things we discuss on this board are things we have no clue about.  Comments are made from everyones own perception and what they felt should have been done. 

What we do know are the results that this team has achieved though.  Some people stay quiet and then use hindsight to formulate their thoughts while some proactively like to call out what they perceive as "stupid." 

To me, there should always be a strategy before going into a game BUT you should also be able to pivot from said strategy based on the results you are seeing on the field.  It's this gap that me and many other Blue Jays had an issue with in these instances.  

[max silver]

3 hours ago, Jays24 said:

Of course I don't... majority of the things we discuss on this board are things we have no clue about.  Comments are made from everyones own perception and what they felt should have been done. 

What we do know are the results that this team has achieved though.  Some people stay quiet and then use hindsight to formulate their thoughts while some proactively like to call out what they perceive as "stupid." 

To me, there should always be a strategy before going into a game BUT you should also be able to pivot from said strategy based on the results you are seeing on the field.  It's this gap that me and many other Blue Jays had an issue with in these instances.  

Literally none of this should apply to the 2020 playoff game in question. It's not like peak Roy Halladay was on the mound. The initial starter was a journeyman type, and the second guy to come into the game was a sub replacement level pitcher that season who was walking the ball park for most of the year. In a high stakes playoff game I think it's infinitely preferable to apply the hook to mediocre pitchers in a fashion that maybe feels a little bit too soon at a glance vs waiting too long given how quickly fortunes can be altered with a single swing of the bat.

[mphenhef]

I would argue that last years team was done in by almost every inning in the early going being leverage in close games due to the lack of offense and good pitching and defense.  There were very few laugher games. It caused way too much demand on the bullpen in the early season and they wore down early.  Once the hitting came around our pen was atrocious due to the east overworking causing injuries and ineffectiveness.