Jays Acquiring Andres Gimenez

[Masterbather]

In a world where Nathan Eovaldi is getting 75 million, Gimenez at 5/94 is a f***ing steal. I wouldn't have said that before the offseason, but prices are absolutely insane.

 

Or we can just not do that. That would have worked too.

[Brownie19]

How on earth does it make a lick of sense for a team that's about to sell to take on the full contract for a glove first second baseman that's in the midst of a 7 year $100+ million contract? A team that's selling would have just kept Horwitz or traded him for younger players/minor league assets.

 

Raises the floor for next year and he "does" have potential to develop into a 5 WAR player if he can learn to hit as he enters his prime. They still want butts in seats and he's a 3 time GG winner. He also fills a hole at SS when Bo leaves.

 

I suspect Horwitz has very little trade value.

[Terminator]

Gimenez made it onto Fangraphs top 50 trade values as an HM. So that’s something.

 

But then Baseball trade values rates sending out Horwitz alone as a massive overpay.

 

Hmm do we go with Fangraphs, the most respected baseball website in history? Or Baseball Trade Values, the junk site that people literally laughed at when they tried to charge a subscription fee?

[Jays24]

If it makes anyone feel better, the Indians Reddit is going bonkers and are so pissed at this trade. I think it's clear if the Jays can add offense then it could be a home run trade but does this front office even recognize offense is a problem lol

[Brownie19]

It's too early to say this is the case but I don't think it's an unreasonable take here.

 

If it's true it's painful though. Full failure on the front office for that.

 

I agree, but it's also just a reality of baseball. Teams go in cycles. Our cycle was 2020-2023 and then a failed 2024. a 4 year contention window is solid, yet unspectacular. The window has closed, time to rebuild.

[Masterbather]

Raises the floor for next year and he "does" have potential to develop into a 5 WAR player if he can learn to hit as he enters his prime. They still want butts in seats and he's a 3 time GG winner. He also fills a hole at SS when Bo leaves.

 

I suspect Horwitz has very little trade value.

 

He doesn't put a single butt in any seat unless it's friends and family.

 

If this team seriously intends on going through the season with an unsigned Vlad or, to a lesser extent, Bo on this mediocre team it's a fireable offense. Either lock them up or trade their asses.

[Brownie19]

Dear God, you've lost it. Take a break for a bit and comeback when refreshed. It's not even that I disagree with you but just doesn't seem right coming from you lol

 

I would have taken the money used in this trade towards Teo/Joc/Burnes... basically any combination of 2 batters we can put in our top 4 and a starting pitcher depending on the price tag. Free agency almost always requires overpayment unless you're smart enough to find the buy low gems like we did with Semien/Ray for 2021.

 

OK - so you're firmly in the camp that believes overpaying FA's like Santander, Teo, Burnes, etc. is the way to go. We'll see how that plays out. I don't think building through free agency is the way to go. Never have (no matter how exciting it is to land a big name).

[Jays24]

OK - so you're firmly in the camp that believes overpaying FA's like Santander, Teo, Burnes, etc. is the way to go. We'll see how that plays out. I don't think building through free agency is the way to go. Never have (no matter how exciting it is to land a big name).

 

Ohh... I'm just speaking based on the position we're in. If it were up to me, I would have fired Shatkins last year after the Berrios f*** up.

 

These guys are not rebuilding in their lameduck season so I'm just giving you the type of players we need to be competitive. It's literally by spending like 75M this off-season and that doesn't even include whatever we're doing with Bo/Vladdy going forward. This is Rogers stupidity of even letting it get this far but here we are.

[Brownie19]

Ohh... I'm just speaking based on the position we're in. If it were up to me, I would have fired Shatkins last year after the Berrios f*** up.

 

These guys are not rebuilding in their lameduck season so I'm just giving you the type of players we need to be competitive. It's literally by spending like 75M this off-season and that doesn't even include whatever we're doing with Bo/Vladdy going forward. This is Rogers stupidity of even letting it get this far but here we are.

 

It was always unrealistic to expect the Jays to be out there landing multiple big name free agents and plugging holes with the perfect fits. That also would have likely put us in a difficult position moving forward. But I do hear what you're saying.

[saskjayfan]

Hmm do we go with Fangraphs, the most respected baseball website in history? Or Baseball Trade Values, the junk site that people literally laughed at when they tried to charge a subscription fee?

 

You can use algorithms using career numbers and make projections or you can look at a young player who has 7th percentile bat speed and a chase rate higher than Bo bichette and say maybe the leagues figured him out. 142 OPS+ to 98 to 82. Feel free to pay your subscription and project him at 103. Maybe you should take him in your fantasy league. When he lands between 80 and 90 the next 2 years, you'll realize this was a train wreck trade and not because of what I think Horowitz may or my not turn out to be. It's just a waste of f***ing money.

[Brownie19]

You can use algorithms using career numbers and make projections or you can look at a young player who has 7th percentile bat speed and a chase rate higher than Bo bichette and say maybe the leagues figured him out. 142 OPS+ to 98 to 82. Feel free to pay your subscription and project him at 103. Maybe you should take him in your fantasy league. When he lands between 80 and 90 the next 2 years, you'll realize this was a train wreck trade and not because of what I think Horowitz may or my not turn out to be. It's just a waste of f***ing money.

 

You know bat speed isn't a good predictor of success eh?

[Stangstag]

If it makes anyone feel better, the Indians Reddit is going bonkers and are so pissed at this trade. I think it's clear if the Jays can add offense then it could be a home run trade but does this front office even recognize offense is a problem lol

 

This trade starts making more sense when you think about the SS situation past 2025. Plus if/when Bo gets injured, we have a legit everyday option. Would make even more sense if they decided to shift Bo to 2nd

 

If Gimenez can rebound even a bit with the bat, he’s basically Ha Seong Kim which is a guy everyone wanted us to sign. But younger.

 

Will be interesting to see what kind of deal Kim gets and how it compares to Gimenez’ remaining contract

[saskjayfan]

You know bat speed isn't a good predictor of success eh?

 

How about chase rate, hard hit percentage. This kid f***ing sucks. He had an xwoba of .281 last year. It's a train wreck trade. We're paying 19 mil a year for a 5 years on kid who had an xwoba of .281 last year. You can jerk off to your Atkins poster all you want. We'll see who's right in a couple years on this one.

[Jays24]

It was always unrealistic to expect the Jays to be out there landing multiple big name free agents and plugging holes with the perfect fits. That also would have likely put us in a difficult position moving forward. But I do hear what you're saying.

 

This might be the first time we've ever agreed. Note the time and day lol.

 

Seriously, if the Jays aren't firing Shatkins then we know they're not rebuilding this off-season. It is extremely hard to try to plug every hole through free agency. It's most likely going to backfire but if Rogers is opening up their wallets even more then let's see how far they'll go.

 

Needs remaining to me are - 2 top 4 bats, SP4 and Closer

 

Scrap yard - Lefty reliever and backup catcher

[jerb]

[saskjayfan]

This might be the first time we've ever agreed. Note the time and day lol.

 

Seriously, if the Jays aren't firing Shatkins then we know they're not rebuilding this off-season. It is extremely hard to try to plug every hole through free agency. It's most likely going to backfire but if Rogers is opening up their wallets even more then let's see how far they'll go.

 

Needs remaining to me are - 2 top 4 bats, SP4 and Closer

 

Scrap yard - Lefty reliever and backup catcher

 

We have 23 mil left in luxury tax space. Explain to me how it's even remotely possible to achieve all that. Last year we hit the season just over the luxury tax. Are we suddenly going to take our luxury tax payroll to 290?

[Jays24]

This trade starts making more sense when you think about the SS situation past 2025. Plus if/when Bo gets injured, we have a legit everyday option. Would make even more sense if they decided to shift Bo to 2nd

 

If Gimenez can rebound even a bit with the bat, he’s basically Ha Seong Kim which is a guy everyone wanted us to sign. But younger.

 

Will be interesting to see what kind of deal Kim gets and how it compares to Gimenez’ remaining contract

 

Agreed but we all know Bo isn't shifting to 2B during his contract year of all seasons. He'll get traded before that happens with the Jays.

 

For a fanbase to unanimously hate the trade as much as the Indians fans do must say something about the kid.

[Jays24]

We have 23 mil left in luxury tax space. Explain to me how it's even remotely possible to achieve all that. Last year we hit the season just over the luxury tax. Are we suddenly going to take our luxury tax payroll to 290?

 

Hey, I'm not saying they're going to do all that, it is going to take us filling all that for me to not want to slap Atkins upside his head lol.

 

I also didn't include Bo/Vladdy extensions. That tells you how little faith i have in these f***tards lol.

[Jays24]

 

Wow... a rare 3 team trade in baseball practically.

[Brownie19]

How about chase rate, hard hit percentage. This kid f***ing sucks. He had an xwoba of .281 last year. It's a train wreck trade. We're paying 19 mil a year for a 5 years on kid who had an xwoba of .281 last year. You can jerk off to your Atkins poster all you want. We'll see who's right in a couple years on this one.

 

I just wanted to point out that you sound dumb for listing bat speed as your first metric. That's all. I agree that Gimenez can't hit and likely never will.

[saskjayfan]

Hey, I'm not saying they're going to do all that, it is going to take us filling all that for me to not want to slap Atkins upside his head lol.

 

I also didn't include Bo/Vladdy extensions. That tells you how little faith i have in these f***tards lol.

 

I know this is a s*** deal because Cleveland's management team made the trade and they are miles better than Shatkins. They are on a budget, so are we. Different budgets but the didn't think Giminez was worth the money he was owed. They've already turned Horowitz into multiple players. Like why can't we have nice things and when are going to take Jeff Luhnow out of purgatory and punt Shatkins to the moon?

[mellowgold]

Horwitz is even more Piratesish than he is Guardiansish

[Jays24]

I just wanted to point out that you sound dumb for listing bat speed as your first metric. That's all. I agree that Gimenez can't hit and likely never will.

 

Can't say never when he did just 2 years ago. Just add him to the list with Kirk/Varsho of who we're hoping can "rediscover" their bat lol.

[Brownie19]

Can't say never when he did just 2 years ago. Just add him to the list with Kirk/Varsho of who we're hoping can "rediscover" their bat lol.

 

Kirk and Varsho both showed a lot more with the bat in the minors and in previous seasons.

[burlingtonbandit]

I agree, but it's also just a reality of baseball. Teams go in cycles. Our cycle was 2020-2023 and then a failed 2024. a 4 year contention window is solid, yet unspectacular. The window has closed, time to rebuild.

 

With the new draft lottery rules the Jays wouldn't be able to get a lottery pick 2 years in a row so in a way it makes tearing down/doing a full rebuild less advantageous. And with the expanded playoffs teams are probably saying well we may as well try to sneak into the postseason. I understand the idea of selling high on a lot of players though given the impeding FA in next 2 years (vladdy, bo, gauseman, bassit, berrios, kirk)

 

The system actually seems to be doing a good job of making teams try to be more competitive.

[Spanky99]

Or you could sign Edman for 5/70

 

Dodgers extended Edman, different.

[John_Havok]

Casuals seem to like the trade...probably more reason to hate it.

[Spanky99]

 

Ahhhh... wish the Jays took that from Pittsburgh, damn.

[John_Havok]

Horwitz finds himself back with Matt Hague. MVP season incoming

[Spanky99]

Run prevention, here we come. Geez...