Vladdy/Bo Extension or Trade Discussion

[L54]

Spitz just re-upped their sponsorship on the Lethbridge stadium for another 5 years. Just thought you'd like to know.

 

Such a bussin name for a stadium

 

Id love to play at Copenhagen Field too but not sure that place exists

[L54]

He's not. The guy barely speaks English. The past two seasons he was generally loathed by fans as an underachiever, and now he is apparently so valuable that they will be forced to hand him a blank cheque?

 

Its just fans being hyperbolic as usual.

 

You’re right rewind 365 days and loathe is the right word

 

Not buying the off field value being tied specifically to Vlad. Eye balls will follow the team when it’s good, not based on the first baseman

[John_Havok]

Such a bussin name for a stadium

 

Id love to play at Copenhagen Field too but not sure that place exists

 

I'm trying to start a grass roots campaign to have the Bulls change their name to the Swallows.

[max silver]

You’re being disingenuous with your no marketability whatsoever comment

 

The comment I was referring to specifically stated that Vlad spoke almost no English and was reviled by the fanbase. Do you think that post was somehow advocating that Vlad had any marketability whatsoever?

[L54]

They operate a giant media conglomerate. Having marketable players is valuable to allow them to fully leverage the full strength of the media monster that they operate. They need to offer hope and entertainment value to get people into the seats and watching on television, if Vlad continues to perform on the field he offers both.

 

You wanna know what offers hope and butts into seats? Winning

 

Vlad being this unicorn that has so much intrinsic value to Rogers on his own doesn’t really check out tbh. Of course he provides some level of marketability because of his name, familiarity amongst fans etc

 

But he’s not the reason people are buying or not buying tickets

[L54]

The comment I was referring to specifically stated that Vlad spoke almost no English and was reviled by the fanbase. Do you think that post was somehow advocating that Vlad had any marketability whatsoever?

 

Those are facts

 

Show me where he said zero marketability

 

Otherwise whatever the world salad is coming via your thumbs is meaningless

[L54]

I'm trying to start a grass roots campaign to have the Bulls change their name to the Swallows.

 

😂😂😂

[max silver]

Those are facts

 

Show me where he said zero marketability

 

Otherwise whatever the world salad is coming via your thumbs is meaningless

 

Is speaking English a requirement for marketing athletes? The most marketable athlete in the sport speaks nearly no English in interviews either, but maybe you missed that somehow.

Vlad speaks English with a very heavy accent and is far more comfortable giving interviews in his native tongue as he's words have been taken out of context and used against him in the past. What matters is that he can communicate with his teammates, which hasn't been an issue from what I can gather.

 

Stating that Vlad is almost universally hated by the fanbase is not a fact. There was zero evidence provided to support this statement, and as such this is nothing more than an opinion. Given how you seem to be exactly the type to believe in alternative facts I'm not overly surprised you would take that statement as fact.

[L54]

Is speaking English a requirement for marketing athletes? The most marketable athlete in the sport speaks nearly no English in interviews either, but maybe you missed that somehow.

Vlad speaks English with a very heavy accent and is far more comfortable giving interviews in his native tongue as he's words have been taken out of context and used against him in the past. What matters is that he can communicate with his teammates, which hasn't been an issue from what I can gather.

 

Stating that Vlad is almost universally hated by the fanbase is not a fact. There was zero evidence provided to support this statement, and as such this is nothing more than an opinion. Given how you seem to be exactly the type to believe in alternative facts I'm not overly surprised you would take that statement as fact.

 

Tldr

[max silver]

Tldr

 

I'll just add laziness to your growing list of deficiencies. You like to plagiarize other people's posts, act like a mopey goth girl as soon as things go poorly for the team, can't discern fact from opinion, and go out of your way to use derogatory terms towards disadvantaged groups. Anything I'm missing?

[L54]

I'll just add laziness to your growing list of deficiencies. You like to plagiarize other people's posts, act like a mopey goth girl as soon as things go poorly for the team, can't discern fact from opinion, and go out of your way to use derogatory terms towards disadvantaged groups. Anything I'm missing?

 

Does your cat have diabeeteez?

[max silver]

Does your cat have diabeeteez?

 

You seem to fail to realize you've essentially turned into Spanky when he's at his worst and not really engaging in real discussion. These mindless insult posts are all sizzle with no steak. Where's the creativity? Come on man, you were just compared to an adolescent girl and the best you can come up with is asking if my cat has a blood sugar disorder.

[Spanky99]

I'm trying to start a grass roots campaign to have the Bulls change their name to the Swallows.

 

Pig, lol.

[Spanky99]

You seem to fail to realize you've essentially turned into Spanky when he's at his worst and not really engaging in real discussion. These mindless insult posts are all sizzle with no steak. Where's the creativity? Come on man, you were just compared to an adolescent girl and the best you can come up with is asking if my cat has a blood sugar disorder.

 

Hey man, s'up?

 

[L54]

Hey man, s'up?

 

 

It’s the tap water !!

[Spanky99]

It’s the tap water !!

 

That clown's still here, like he's in a sound chamber.

 

DJMetallijay, lol.

[saskjayfan]

I highly doubt that Rogers is jumping with excitement to pay ANY player $300M+ (who's name isn't Ohtani).

 

Shapiro will just tell them that its stupid and they will land another "franchise player". He also isn't some green exec who is going to be steamrolled by ownership.

 

Teams have learned that fans are idiots and they will change their tune on a dime. Therefore its not worth gutting your payroll to keep fans happy for a few seasons. They will grow tired of Guerrero like every other player before him. George Springer was "marketable" as well for about 1-2 seasons before he started regressing. Funny, I don't think that Rogers is making too much money on Springer's "marketability" anymore.

 

Fans also grossly overstate the "franchise player" rhetoric. Before Guerrero they had Donaldson, and before that there was Bautista. Even Vernon Wells was seen as a franchise player for a minute. Before that they had Halladay, and before that came Delgado. History has shown that when one "franchise player" leaves, the next isn't that far away. There is no scenario where Rogers is left with nobody to market in Uncrustables PB&J commercials if Guerrero leaves.

 

You're comparing Vlad to players who became free agents in their 30s. Give me a break. Vald is a .900 to 1.000+ OPS guy year after year. If you need more value out of him, throw him in left or play him at 3rd. I'm sure he could handle both positions. Getting a guy who consistently is a .900 to 1.000 player for 6 or 7 years in a row isn't exactly easy to find. We've had one of those guys in franchise history and Carlos Delgado played in the steriod era.

[max silver]

You're comparing Vlad to players who became free agents in their 30s. Give me a break. Vald is a .900 to 1.000+ OPS guy year after year. If you need more value out of him, throw him in left or play him at 3rd. I'm sure he could handle both positions. Getting a guy who consistently is a .900 to 1.000 player for 6 or 7 years in a row isn't exactly easy to find. We've had one of those guys in franchise history and Carlos Delgado played in the steriod era.

 

Vlad has produced to that level over a full season of play exactly once. If he finishes the season strong he has a chance to have produced at this level twice in his 5 full seasons.

[Nexii]

Vlad's defense has been pretty bad. His WAR adjustment is worse than Ohtani who has been a full time DH. In fact the worst defensive adjustment of any player. Really he should just be playing DH for the Jays so they can gain some defensive 1B value

 

Though, I'd still resign him anyways. He's got fan appeal

[metafour]

Is speaking English a requirement for marketing athletes? The most marketable athlete in the sport speaks nearly no English in interviews either, but maybe you missed that somehow.

Vlad speaks English with a very heavy accent and is far more comfortable giving interviews in his native tongue as he's words have been taken out of context and used against him in the past. What matters is that he can communicate with his teammates, which hasn't been an issue from what I can gather.

 

Stating that Vlad is almost universally hated by the fanbase is not a fact. There was zero evidence provided to support this statement, and as such this is nothing more than an opinion. Given how you seem to be exactly the type to believe in alternative facts I'm not overly surprised you would take that statement as fact.

 

I never stated that he had "no marketability", I am challenging the completely unfounded notion that apparently he is so marketable that Rogers has no choice but to meet whatever crazy nonsensical demands he has. This is what the argument being made is: "well of course he's not worth anywhere near $300+M as a player, but he is so marketable that Rogers has no choice but to give in to his demands". There is zero proof that Guerrero has anywhere near that much marketing potential such that it is going to force ownership to hand him a contract that is completely balls to the wall out of line with the market for 1B/DH type players.

 

Vladimir Guerrero is not Ohtani. Surely you are smart enough to understand that. Ohtani has "marketing value" outside his on-field performance because whatever team he plays for has immediate and instant access to the market that is the entire nation of Japan. Japan is a first-world country with a population of ~120+ million, and the most popular sport is baseball. Broadcasting rights, partnerships with Japanese brands and companies, merchandise sales, etc., etc. are all at play for the team that controls Ohtani. What does Vlad Guerrero give you access to? The booming economy of the third world Dominican Republic? Don't make me laugh.

 

Guerrero is just an average young "star", no different than any other player of his ability around the league. This season he ranks 14th in the league in jersey sales. What is interesting is that Bo Bichette (who has been injured and having a terrible season otherwise) is 19th in sales. What is even more interesting is that Pete Alonso ranks above both at #12, and Alonso is player that the Mets have had little interest in extending. He is insanely popular among their fans, and yet you don't see the Mets blowing the market apart to keep him on the team. In fact, they are going to let him go to free agency, and apparently the market for him is underwhelming (despite the fact that he is a proven hitter, sells jerseys, wins HR Derbies, etc).

 

I deliberately stated that Guerrero was not particularly well liked in the PREVIOUS two seasons - and this is 100% true. To pretend otherwise is nonsense. You post on this forum, don't you? Prior to this season the fan narrative was that he was fat, lazy, not serious about the game or his fitness, and he was catching routine flack for loafing on the field and not running out ground balls to first base. There were all sorts of posts made about how the coaches were coddling him and afraid to sit him for his poor effort. He was berated as an underachiever following his 2021 season. The reason why I bring this up is because this was just a year ago. Nobody in their right mind was claiming that Rogers' profitability was riding on Vlad being kept long-term at any cost in 2022 or 2023. But here we are, a year later and apparently he is SO VALUABLE that Shapiro is going to be forced to break the market to sign him? No, man. Stop. His marketability is entirely tied to his performance, just like 99% of the rest of the players in the league. He is not "special" like Ohtani. He is simply the best player on the Blue Jays. Yes, there is "marketability" tied to that, but it also isn't particularly difficult to market players in Toronto. Rogers has a massive natural boost in the fact that this is the only team in Canada, and this extends to whoever the best player on the team is. So like I said, if Vlad's demands are totally out of line with what the number-crunchers in Shapiro's front office calculate his value to be, they will simply move on and find another "franchise player" to market. He is NOT "irreplaceable", which is why it is completely baseless to suggest that Rogers has no choice but to pay him as if he is Juan Soto (which is what the fan narrative seems to be).

[Carlos Danger]

One thing I do like about Shapiro, is that he has gone on record saying fans will win come to see a winning Team over a player/s.

[hanton]

anyone have a source for this quote from Atkins? regarding bo and vlad extensions

 

 

“It would take a lot on both side for that to happen in this next off-season. And certainly, if it doesn’t then we could obviously have an opportunity to do so in free agency or just before free agency.”

 

[L54]

I never stated that he had "no marketability", I am challenging the completely unfounded notion that apparently he is so marketable that Rogers has no choice but to meet whatever crazy nonsensical demands he has. This is what the argument being made is: "well of course he's not worth anywhere near $300+M as a player, but he is so marketable that Rogers has no choice but to give in to his demands". There is zero proof that Guerrero has anywhere near that much marketing potential such that it is going to force ownership to hand him a contract that is completely balls to the wall out of line with the market for 1B/DH type players.

 

Vladimir Guerrero is not Ohtani. Surely you are smart enough to understand that. Ohtani has "marketing value" outside his on-field performance because whatever team he plays for has immediate and instant access to the market that is the entire nation of Japan. Japan is a first-world country with a population of ~120+ million, and the most popular sport is baseball. Broadcasting rights, partnerships with Japanese brands and companies, merchandise sales, etc., etc. are all at play for the team that controls Ohtani. What does Vlad Guerrero give you access to? The booming economy of the third world Dominican Republic? Don't make me laugh.

 

Guerrero is just an average young "star", no different than any other player of his ability around the league. This season he ranks 14th in the league in jersey sales. What is interesting is that Bo Bichette (who has been injured and having a terrible season otherwise) is 19th in sales. What is even more interesting is that Pete Alonso ranks above both at #12, and Alonso is player that the Mets have had little interest in extending. He is insanely popular among their fans, and yet you don't see the Mets blowing the market apart to keep him on the team. In fact, they are going to let him go to free agency, and apparently the market for him is underwhelming (despite the fact that he is a proven hitter, sells jerseys, wins HR Derbies, etc).

 

I deliberately stated that Guerrero was not particularly well liked in the PREVIOUS two seasons - and this is 100% true. To pretend otherwise is nonsense. You post on this forum, don't you? Prior to this season the fan narrative was that he was fat, lazy, not serious about the game or his fitness, and he was catching routine flack for loafing on the field and not running out ground balls to first base. There were all sorts of posts made about how the coaches were coddling him and afraid to sit him for his poor effort. He was berated as an underachiever following his 2021 season. The reason why I bring this up is because this was just a year ago. Nobody in their right mind was claiming that Rogers' profitability was riding on Vlad being kept long-term at any cost in 2022 or 2023. But here we are, a year later and apparently he is SO VALUABLE that Shapiro is going to be forced to break the market to sign him? No, man. Stop. His marketability is entirely tied to his performance, just like 99% of the rest of the players in the league. He is not "special" like Ohtani. He is simply the best player on the Blue Jays. Yes, there is "marketability" tied to that, but it also isn't particularly difficult to market players in Toronto. Rogers has a massive natural boost in the fact that this is the only team in Canada, and this extends to whoever the best player on the team is. So like I said, if Vlad's demands are totally out of line with what the number-crunchers in Shapiro's front office calculate his value to be, they will simply move on and find another "franchise player" to market. He is NOT "irreplaceable", which is why it is completely baseless to suggest that Rogers has no choice but to pay him as if he is Juan Soto (which is what the fan narrative seems to be).

 

Holy good post

 

Good luck Maximus

[Carlos Danger]

anyone have a source for this quote from Atkins? regarding bo and vlad extensions

 

 

“It would take a lot on both side for that to happen in this next off-season. And certainly, if it doesn’t then we could obviously have an opportunity to do so in free agency or just before free agency.”

 

 

I saw him say that in an interview. I believe it was a Sportsnet interview. ICR if Tim or Blair and Barker or a media scrum. It’s legit though.

[BatFlip]

Vlad's defense has been pretty bad. His WAR adjustment is worse than Ohtani who has been a full time DH. In fact the worst defensive adjustment of any player. Really he should just be playing DH for the Jays so they can gain some defensive 1B value

 

Though, I'd still resign him anyways. He's got fan appeal

 

I knew he'd get a painfully bad adjustment, but worst of any player? Just curious what the source is?

[Stangstag]

I saw him say that in an interview. I believe it was a Sportsnet interview. ICR if Tim or Blair and Barker or a media scrum. It’s legit though.

 

Im really thinking the best course of action here is to just let them both test free agency.

 

Whats the worst that happens if Vlad tests FA?? He likely gets underwhelming offers and maybe 1 big 300m offer from a desperate team. And then we could match the offer if we wanted.

 

No need to bid against ourselves here, its clear Vlad will not be giving us any kind of “discount” so why not wait

[metafour]

You're comparing Vlad to players who became free agents in their 30s. Give me a break.

 

1B/DH only players who were comparable hitters to him (or even better hitters in some cases) signed extensions in their mid 20's for nowhere near $300M (eg: Yordan Alvarez, Paul Goldschmidt). Don't you think that those players' agents would tell them to just wait for free agency is they thought that there was $300+ million on the table for them? Agents are paid a percentage of the total contract signed. It makes zero sense to suggest that all of those players signed extensions that ended up losing both the player AND agent millions of dollars.

 

The idea that Vlad is going to get $100+ million more than the established "market value" of a bad defensive 1B/DH because he is 1-2 years younger than normal is a giant leap of an assumption.

 

Vald is a .900 to 1.000+ OPS guy year after year.

 

If you are going to try to argue, at least do ten seconds of research. This statement is absurdly false:

 

2019: .772 OPS

2020: .791 OPS

2021: 1.002 OPS

2022: .819 OPS

2023: .789 OPS

2024: .930 OPS

 

As you can see, it is nowhere near "yEar aFtEr yeaR". It is TWO (2) seasons of elite hitting. The literal problem here is that he is NOT a "consistently elite hitter".

[max silver]

holy good post

 

good luck maximus

 

tldr.

[max silver]

I never stated that he had "no marketability", I am challenging the completely unfounded notion that apparently he is so marketable that Rogers has no choice but to meet whatever crazy nonsensical demands he has. This is what the argument being made is: "well of course he's not worth anywhere near $300+M as a player, but he is so marketable that Rogers has no choice but to give in to his demands". There is zero proof that Guerrero has anywhere near that much marketing potential such that it is going to force ownership to hand him a contract that is completely balls to the wall out of line with the market for 1B/DH type players.

 

Vladimir Guerrero is not Ohtani. Surely you are smart enough to understand that. Ohtani has "marketing value" outside his on-field performance because whatever team he plays for has immediate and instant access to the market that is the entire nation of Japan. Japan is a first-world country with a population of ~120+ million, and the most popular sport is baseball. Broadcasting rights, partnerships with Japanese brands and companies, merchandise sales, etc., etc. are all at play for the team that controls Ohtani. What does Vlad Guerrero give you access to? The booming economy of the third world Dominican Republic? Don't make me laugh.

 

Guerrero is just an average young "star", no different than any other player of his ability around the league. This season he ranks 14th in the league in jersey sales. What is interesting is that Bo Bichette (who has been injured and having a terrible season otherwise) is 19th in sales. What is even more interesting is that Pete Alonso ranks above both at #12, and Alonso is player that the Mets have had little interest in extending. He is insanely popular among their fans, and yet you don't see the Mets blowing the market apart to keep him on the team. In fact, they are going to let him go to free agency, and apparently the market for him is underwhelming (despite the fact that he is a proven hitter, sells jerseys, wins HR Derbies, etc).

 

I deliberately stated that Guerrero was not particularly well liked in the PREVIOUS two seasons - and this is 100% true. To pretend otherwise is nonsense. You post on this forum, don't you? Prior to this season the fan narrative was that he was fat, lazy, not serious about the game or his fitness, and he was catching routine flack for loafing on the field and not running out ground balls to first base. There were all sorts of posts made about how the coaches were coddling him and afraid to sit him for his poor effort. He was berated as an underachiever following his 2021 season. The reason why I bring this up is because this was just a year ago. Nobody in their right mind was claiming that Rogers' profitability was riding on Vlad being kept long-term at any cost in 2022 or 2023. But here we are, a year later and apparently he is SO VALUABLE that Shapiro is going to be forced to break the market to sign him? No, man. Stop. His marketability is entirely tied to his performance, just like 99% of the rest of the players in the league. He is not "special" like Ohtani. He is simply the best player on the Blue Jays. Yes, there is "marketability" tied to that, but it also isn't particularly difficult to market players in Toronto. Rogers has a massive natural boost in the fact that this is the only team in Canada, and this extends to whoever the best player on the team is. So like I said, if Vlad's demands are totally out of line with what the number-crunchers in Shapiro's front office calculate his value to be, they will simply move on and find another "franchise player" to market. He is NOT "irreplaceable", which is why it is completely baseless to suggest that Rogers has no choice but to pay him as if he is Juan Soto (which is what the fan narrative seems to be).

 

Good post.

 

Not everything needs to be so black and white. I've never once suggested the team should literally pay Vlad whatever he wants, it's obvious that both sides are going to need to meet in the middle if an extension is to be completed. I simply pointed out my opinion that Vlad should shoot for the moon in his initial ask as he has franchise player potential levels of talent and upside. If he actually wants to stay long term as he's repeatedly stated he's going to need to agree to a deal that isn't completely over and above what the market will actually bear for a player with his positional value.

 

I never once said Vlad was "as" marketable as Ohtani in any of my posts. I simply pointed out that not speaking English in public is a non factor in athlete marketability. This even directly points back to the types of respective deals each will receive as Ohtani earned himself a $700 million deal and was literally the only player on the planet whose on field performance and off the field fame could begin to justify. I'm fully aware that Vlad simply isn't in that stratosphere and his actual offers in free agency will reflect that fact. Myself and a few other posters are simply sharing our opinion that Vlad is a marketable player and that a major media company such as Rogers can benefit from having someone of this ilk. Once again not everything needs to be framed as such a black and white situation. Does this maybe justify a few extra million a season compared to if Vlad was a boring cookie cutter run of the mill player?

[Nexii]

I knew he'd get a painfully bad adjustment, but worst of any player? Just curious what the source is?

 

Fangraphs, sort by defense