Why do the Jays keep hiring first-time MLB managers? Is leadership the issue?

[5ToolPhenom]

Honestly, I don't understand how the coaching staff doesn't get more scrutiny. I've always felt that the Bo/Vladdy era teams have lacked identity and leadership and each time they were lead by first-time MLB managers. I've never understood the reasoning for this. Is it just because Atkins and Shapiro are so insecure that they want to be ensured that the manager in place is merely a puppet who does exactly as they're told?

 

We've seen with Texas and Bruce Bochy how a proven manager can turn things around and get everyone playing on the same page with identity and purpose. We saw it in 2022 with Houston and Dusty Baker too. I realize that this is perhaps THE MOST taboo opinion on the entire forum and that the consensus is that managers are almost meaningless, but I respectfully disagree. I think when teams are spending endless time together every day and touring across the country for 162 games a season that player and clubhouse management is CRUCIAL.

 

It makes absolutely zero sense to me as to why a team would be amongst the top payrolls in the league and then consecutively hire managers who have NEVER lead a big league team before. Someone please explain to me the mindset in which going after someone like Charlie Montoyo makes more sense than hiring an established manager like Bruce Bochy. And please, save the nonsense about how "there was no good established managers on the market to hire", we all know that wasn't the case and the examples are endless.

[Terminator]

I think the FO just wants a yes man that will do whatever they say

 

Bruce Bochy isn't that kind of guy

[Jays333]

Yah I have to second that I think its pretty obvious Shatkins are calling the shots and they just want a manager who will do exactly what they want without questioning it or going off script.

[5ToolPhenom]

I think the FO just wants a yes man that will do whatever they say

 

Bruce Bochy isn't that kind of guy

 

That's the only logical conclusion that I come to as well and I think it's disgraceful. We've all seen how well this cold and calculated way of managing the game worked last post-season when Jose Berrios was pitching the game of his lifetime and was pulled after 3 INNINGS. There's gotta be a balance struck and Shapiro and Atkins strike me as control freaks to the extent where it's becoming detrimental to their and the teams success.

[G-Snarls]

Now I don't think JS is a particularly good manager. But also don't think whatever manager is present is going to make Springer, Vladdy, Varsho and Kirk start hitting better again. And that's what would make the team better at this point. All because the front office somehow thought this offense was going to be good enough. And that's not the manager's fault either.

[Laika]

Your hunch is basically the reason that I would assume

 

Except the coaching staff is a bunch of dinosaurs who probably just do what they want. So I honestly have no f***ing idea.

[5ToolPhenom]

Now I don't think JS is a particularly good manager. But also don't think whatever manager is present is going to make Springer, Vladdy, Varsho and Kirk start hitting better again. And that's what would make the team better at this point. All because the front office somehow thought this offense was going to be good enough. And that's not the manager's fault either.

 

Perhaps true, but there seems to be a lot of players playing below career norms.

 

The mental part of the game is a big factor and you'd like to see a team playing with purpose. It's not an easy thing to quantify, but you know it when you see it. You want to see a culture where every player knows their role while understanding the fact that the best on the field play gets rewarded with playing time. Teams THRIVE on that competitive culture. It's almost unthinkable to me how Davis Schneider could come off the bench, hit a game winning home run against one of the best closers in the game and then be BENCHED again the following day. Imagine how Davis felt the next day when he comes in and sees his name out of the lineup yet again. It's these kinds of examples that are just cancer for team morale. If Bochy was managing this team, you can bet the bank that Schneider would be in the lineup the next day.

[Brownie19]

Perhaps true, but there seems to be a lot of players playing below career norms.

 

The mental part of the game is a big factor and you'd like to see a team playing with purpose. It's not an easy thing to quantify, but you know it when you see it. You want to see a culture where every player knows their role while understanding the fact that the best on the field play gets rewarded with playing time. Teams THRIVE on that competitive culture. It's almost unthinkable to me how Davis Schneider could come off the bench, hit a game winning home run against one of the best closers in the game and then be BENCHED again the following day. Imagine how Davis felt the next day when he comes in and sees his name out of the lineup yet again. It's these kinds of examples that are just cancer for team morale. If Bochy was managing this team, you can bet the bank that Schneider would be in the lineup the next day.

 

I mean - TB had done this religiously for the past 15 years with almost unparalleled success.

 

Everyone can jerk Bruce Bochy off if they want. I never thought those Giants teams were any good and nobody really cared about the Rangers last year - but come playoff time, he seems to get the wins. Dusty Baker worked out in Houston, but didn't work in Washington. Tony LaRussa was a complete disaster. Buck Showalter? Mixed results - s*** in Baltimore, then 1 great year in NY, followed by a disaster. Christ - most people hate Dave Roberts in LA too....Pretty inconsistent results.

[wilko]

Honestly, they should have just kept Montoyo. He was their puppet, and could at least speak Spanish. Played a hell of a bongo as well.

[keggy]

Honestly, they should have just kept Montoyo. He was their puppet, and could at least speak Spanish. Played a hell of a bongo as well.

 

Montoyo was such an easygoing beta male that the more competitive players like Bichette hated his guts. They're both puppets, but the players seem to respect Schneider more.

[keggy]

I mean - TB had done this religiously for the past 15 years with almost unparalleled success.

 

Tampa Bay is successful because they have the best player drafting and development in the league, they regularly fleece other GMs in trades despite having no financial leverage, and they transform DFA bait into all star calibre relievers making the league minimum.

 

The weird s*** they do in-game has nothing to do with their success.

[Brownie19]

Tampa Bay is successful because they have the best player drafting and development in the league, they regularly fleece other GMs in trades despite having no financial leverage, and they transform DFA bait into all star calibre relievers making the league minimum.

 

The weird s*** they do in-game has nothing to do with their success.

 

No idea how you form a firm opinion like this.

[JFD]

The entire management team is just happy to be employed

[G-Snarls]

I hear Skip Shumaker might be available this off season

[keggy]

No idea how you form a firm opinion like this.

 

Okay I'll rephrase.

 

In my opinion, TB has a world-class development team and front office. I also believe they employ an unconventional management system for making in-game decisions based on predictive modelling on aggregated historical data.

 

There is zero reproducible evidence that Tampa's in-game system leads to more wins than conventional managing. Even if there were an effect (there isn't) that effect size would be tiny relative to other, proven factors that actually predict winning.

 

Meanwhile, there is DECADES of evidence that a competent front office and player development pipeline contributes enormously to sustained on-field winning.

[Brownie19]

Okay I'll rephrase.

 

In my opinion, TB has a world-class development team and front office. I also believe they employ an unconventional management system for making in-game decisions based on predictive modelling on aggregated historical data.

 

There is zero reproducible evidence that Tampa's in-game system leads to more wins than conventional managing. Even if there were an effect (there isn't) that effect size would be tiny relative to other, proven factors that actually predict winning.

 

Meanwhile, there is DECADES of evidence that a competent front office and player development pipeline contributes enormously to sustained on-field winning.

 

I still have no idea how you know or believe that's true.

 

You're suggesting their strategies to pull starters after the 2nd time through the lineup, or to utilize an opener has absolutely nothing to do with their success? You think if they just run that starter back out there a 3rd time through the lineup every game, they'll win the exact same number of games? You think all their predictive modelling is bogus? You think other teams, that have copied some of their approaches are all morons?

 

As far as reproducible evidence - I believe there are lots of stats suggesting that implementing shifts was very successful v. a traditional configuration. That's why EVERY team in baseball did it. There predictive modelling is based on TONS of stats suggesting a certain way of managing will result in more wins. If you want to use more traditional methods - just look at TB. They never have a great roster. They bat guys like Harold Ramirez 3rd, Ji Man Choi (our Voggy) cleanup and they lose tons of great players and pitchers to injury and free agency - yet they always seem to field a competitive team.

 

Suggesting their in-game strategies and managerial approach has NOTHING to do with their success seems insane to me.

[Governator]

I mean the fact that Atkins used Schneider as a scapegoat last fall for pulling Berrios and didn't fire him, why would they look to replace him now? They got their yes man.

[wilko]

I mean the fact that Atkins used Schneider as a scapegoat last fall for pulling Berrios and didn't fire him, why would they look to replace him now? They got their yes man.

 

That was their cuck test and Schneider passed.

[BaseballIsLife]

Amusing little snippet.

 

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2889967

[hanton]

Amusing little snippet.

 

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2889967

 

at that time he also mentioned something about him hitting .200 lmao

[BaseballIsLife]

at that time he also mentioned something about him hitting .200 lmao

 

Interesting part:

 

“I know a lot of guys have beef with him in the league. So his comments aren't surprising," Raleigh said of Schneider

[hanton]

Interesting part:

 

“I know a lot of guys have beef with him in the league. So his comments aren't surprising," Raleigh said of Schneider

 

Berrios has a beef with him we know that lol

[Brownie19]

Berrios has a beef with him we know that lol

 

No we don't.

 

Wasn't John Schneider super successful as a manager in the minors and wasn't he basically beloved by the players on those teams?

[keggy]

Berrios has a beef with him we know that lol

 

It's pretty well publicized that Schneider doesn't make these decisions and the players understand that

[hanton]

No we don't.

 

Wasn't John Schneider super successful as a manager in the minors and wasn't he basically beloved by the players on those teams?

 

I'm guessing, kind of a strange allogation, he definitely doesn't seem like the type that Raleigh is describing

[bigshot84]

even i can be the manager

 

i dont have mlb experience or even minor league but can manage team better

[BigCecil]

The amount of time spent by fans criticizing the coaches & managers is mostly a waste IMO.

 

The incremental Win +/- of all of the coaches & managers combined is small, relative to roster construction and the weighting FO's put on nerd's player projections.