Out of my 35 years of watching baseball, that was the WORST managerial decision I've

[Spanky99]

I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it. Am I to really believe that a big league manager has no autonomy at all? You're telling me that it's decided PRE-GAME by the front office to pull a stud pitcher after 3 innings (when there's no injury related concerns)? I'm sorry that's just horse sh*t and you know it.

 

Read the link I provided, bro... JS said it was planned. There's video too.

[5ToolPhenom]

I don’t really have an issue with them discussing a gameplan of using Kikuchi in an almost bridge situation. But your gameplan has to change based on what you see. If he was struggling or looked off you make an aggressive move like that.

 

I understand the logic but that really didn’t happen at that point in the ball game. Could have happened a couple innings later. That was the best I have seen Jose inawhile.

 

Precisely! I can understand ball-gaming different scenarios and going into the game with a plan, but that was pure idiocy. Not to mention that Kikuchi is known for his meltdowns and sporadically losing control. He's not the guy I would want to go to in an unprecedented situation like that.

[hanton]

I'm sure they went over situations for if Berrios looked shaky or if he was struggling, to then have a quick hook but I don't think there's any chance that they would have instructed him to pull him if he was dealing after 3 innings with only 45 pitches thrown.

 

Imagine watching the 2000 Yankees in the playoffs and seeing Andy Petitte get pulled after 3 innings when he's dealing. It's beyond comprehension.

 

I think this is incorrect otherwise JS and Walker are complete baseball idiots and I don't beleive that they are - this was 100% planned

[JaysAllMighty]

I think this is incorrect otherwise JS and Walker are complete baseball idiots and I don't beleive that they are - this was 100% planned

 

The boat is sinking, must stick to the plan. f***ing morons.

[5ToolPhenom]

There has to be some kind of science for guys “just not having it” some days. If you’re aiming to give up zero runs, it’s just tough to expect 6 different guys to give you a scoreless inning. If you have a guy dealing, at least let him go through twice and give you 5 if all is well. Then hear about it when you pull the guy that gave up 1 hit on 70 pitches. Just think that pull is too early, and Kooch is not Andrew Miller

 

Well said. It's a human game. These guys aren't robots. When you have a great pitcher like Berrios on the mound and he clearly has his good stuff, you have to roll with it. You never know if who you're going to replace him with is going to have his best stuff or not and Kikuchi clearly didn't.

[5ToolPhenom]

Read the link I provided, bro... JS said it was planned. There's video too.

 

You're wrong Spank. Schneider said himself that they had a "few different plans" in place. Which is what I would have expected. There's no chance they'd have a black and white plan to pull a stud like Jose Berrios after 3 innings if he was dealing. I refuse to believe it.

 

Here's Schneider admitting it for himself... You guys are wrong on this one.

 

[Spanky99]

You're wrong Spank. Schneider said himself that they had a "few different plans" in place. Which is what I would have expected. There's no chance they'd have a black and white plan to pull a stud like Jose Berrios after 3 innings if he was dealing. I refuse to believe it.

 

Here's Schneider admitting it for himself... You guys are wrong on this one.

 

 

That's the video man, even Berrios knew he was in to face 12 batters, I don't know what to tell ya, they didn't want the LHB's to face Jose a second time and force their bats out of the game with pinch hitters. It didn't work, should've brought Mayza in and gave Kooch a clean inning to start. Anyhow, they scored 1 f***ing run, that was the problem.

[Omar]

Grown a pair and get fired if they end up still losing because the offense can’t score??

 

He should grow a pair and lose his job over this??

 

That’s stupid dude, come on. Place your frustration on the front office.

 

YES! Be a man. Did everyones balls fall off in this new generation of ANAL-ytics?

[tazsub3]

Like i said, even in MLB the show on my kids PS5 would fire ones ass if he made such a move

[Brownie19]

I'm sure they went over situations for if Berrios looked shaky or if he was struggling, to then have a quick hook but I don't think there's any chance that they would have instructed him to pull him if he was dealing after 3 innings with only 45 pitches thrown.

 

Imagine watching the 2000 Yankees in the playoffs and seeing Andy Petitte get pulled after 3 innings when he's dealing. It's beyond comprehension.

 

You can't compare baseball in 2023 to baseball in 2000. Bullpens are significantly better (as are the hitters). You could compare it to when the Jays stuck with Ray in the 6th inning of Game 162 in 2021, or when the Mets stuck with Scherzer in the 5th inning of the Wildcard Series (Game 1) last year - neither of those decisions worked. You could also compare it to the Blake Snell move in the World Series a few years ago with TB (that didn't work). Every decision has a probability of failure and sometimes even good decisions fail.

[G-Snarls]

My 2 cents now that I can even think clearly

 

Pulling Berrios sucked and I was very much against it. He was absolutely DEALING and that should outweigh the presumed pre-game plan to use Kikuchi for the lefties due up.

 

But honestly the offense was so f'n pitiful that pulling Berrios early probably meant the difference between losing 2-0 instead of losing 1-0. Team scored 1 f***ING RUN in 18 innings like OMFG I can't even believe it.

 

I mean who knows - maybe Berrios pitches 7 shutout innings and the bullpen holds it and they manage to scrape up a 1-0 win in extra innings but I doubt it.

[tazsub3]

My 2 cents now that I can even think clearly

 

Pulling Berrios sucked and I was very much against it. He was absolutely DEALING and that should outweigh the presumed pre-game plan to use Kikuchi for the lefties due up.

 

But honestly the offense was so f'n pitiful that pulling Berrios early probably meant the difference between losing 2-0 instead of losing 1-0. Team scored 1 f***ING RUN in 18 innings like OMFG I can't even believe it.

 

I mean who knows - maybe Berrios pitches 7 shutout innings and the bullpen holds it and they manage to scrape up a 1-0 win in extra innings but I doubt it.

 

or maybe the batters get an emotional boast of berrios s***ing down his ex team and wake the f up. instead of being deflated and approach each at bat as a closer moment to going on vacation.

Sports are built on emotions, why a fight or a big hit in hockey can change momentum, why a huge block or a spectacular dunk can change a basketball game.

You know maybe kikuchi goes in and K's the side and offence gets a left, though we know he did not and his 2 runs allowed sure deflated the team

[Spanky99]

There's certainly a disconnect, we saw it Wednesday night.

 

The human element was left out to dry.

[hanton]

https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/10542-Would-you-fire-Atkins?p=1752542&viewfull=1#post1752542

[G-Snarls]

You can't compare baseball in 2023 to baseball in 2000. Bullpens are significantly better (as are the hitters). You could compare it to when the Jays stuck with Ray in the 6th inning of Game 162 in 2021, or when the Mets stuck with Scherzer in the 5th inning of the Wildcard Series (Game 1) last year - neither of those decisions worked. You could also compare it to the Blake Snell move in the World Series a few years ago with TB (that didn't work). Every decision has a probability of failure and sometimes even good decisions fail.

 

Bullpens are better but hitters aren't

 

BA SLG OPS RUNS all better in 2000 than the last couple of years

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/bat.shtml

[5ToolPhenom]

I think this is incorrect otherwise JS and Walker are complete baseball idiots and I don't beleive that they are - this was 100% planned

 

I tried to tell you guys that this narrative was nonsense. Front offices don't dictate pitching changes to a manager.

 

https://www.coastreporter.net/national-sports/jays-gm-atkins-says-manager-schneider-made-decision-to-pull-berrios-from-game-2-7655714

[5ToolPhenom]

That's the video man, even Berrios knew he was in to face 12 batters, I don't know what to tell ya, they didn't want the LHB's to face Jose a second time and force their bats out of the game with pinch hitters. It didn't work, should've brought Mayza in and gave Kooch a clean inning to start. Anyhow, they scored 1 f***ing run, that was the problem.

 

Wrong. This was not a decision that was premeditated. Ross Atkins clarified a few days ago. This was 100% on John Schneider.

 

https://www.coastreporter.net/national-sports/jays-gm-atkins-says-manager-schneider-made-decision-to-pull-berrios-from-game-2-7655714

[JaysAllMighty]

Wrong. This was not a decision that was premeditated. Ross Atkins clarified a few days ago. This was 100% on John Schneider.

 

https://www.coastreporter.net/national-sports/jays-gm-atkins-says-manager-schneider-made-decision-to-pull-berrios-from-game-2-7655714

 

Some are in denial and insist on believing Atkins was lying about being Schneider's decision. I have no reason not to believe Atkins. Schneider is a dumb manager.

[5ToolPhenom]

Some are in denial and insist on believing Atkins was lying about being Schneider's decision. I have no reason not to believe Atkins. Schneider is a dumb manager.

 

Exactly. I mean, I'm sure they have analytics guys who ball-gamed certain scenarios for if Berrios wasn't looking sharp and what not, but there's no way there was a concrete plan to pull him after 3 innings if he was dealing. One would think that Schneider would've learned after the Gausman debacle last postseason, but the guy's just stubborn.

 

I honestly can't believe the Jays are bringing him back in 2024. I'll always have an interest in the Jays, but the last few years have been a bitter pill to take. I'm tired of seeing these guys like Montoyo and Schneider who have never managed a MLB club before getting put in charge of a team that's supposed to win NOW. Compare the Jays to a team like the Rangers or Astros and it's like night and day. A team needs a manager who's won before. Plain and simple.

[Carlos Danger]

Exactly. I mean, I'm sure they have analytics guys who ball-gamed certain scenarios for if Berrios wasn't looking sharp and what not, but there's no way there was a concrete plan to pull him after 3 innings if he was dealing. One would think that Schneider would've learned after the Gausman debacle last postseason, but the guy's just stubborn.

 

I honestly can't believe the Jays are bringing him back in 2024. I'll always have an interest in the Jays, but the last few years have been a bitter pill to take. I'm tired of seeing these guys like Montoyo and Schneider who have never managed a MLB club before getting put in charge of a team that's supposed to win NOW. Compare the Jays to a team like the Rangers or Astros and it's like night and day. A team needs a manager who's won before. Plain and simple.

 

Just as a side.. Dusty Baker was considered a horrible playoff manager and had not won the big games in the playoffs until he came to Houston.. Who probably won despite him..

[hanton]

I tried to tell you guys that this narrative was nonsense. Front offices don't dictate pitching changes to a manager.

 

https://www.coastreporter.net/national-sports/jays-gm-atkins-says-manager-schneider-made-decision-to-pull-berrios-from-game-2-7655714

 

Atkins didn't call JS and tell him to remove Berrios but the data was sent down to JS and presented to him as such - that's why the move was made.

 

JS isn't an idiot, without that data (which is overseen by Atkins) he leaves Berrios in.

[Spanky99]

Wrong. This was not a decision that was premeditated. Ross Atkins clarified a few days ago. This was 100% on John Schneider.

 

https://www.coastreporter.net/national-sports/jays-gm-atkins-says-manager-schneider-made-decision-to-pull-berrios-from-game-2-7655714

 

lol... okay.

[travisinfla]

“Decisions were made, and not only was I not consulted, but they directly changed how I operated.”

[Spanky99]

“Decisions were made, and not only was I not consulted, but they directly changed how I operated.”

 

We need context here, dude... lol.

 

Toronto Blue Jays Sports MLB Baseball

 

From Gibby to John Schneider, mismanaging managers has been the Blue Jays' way

’No one in their right mind believes that Schneider made that decision on his own.’

 

Get the latest from Rob Longley straight to your inbox

 

The job of modern baseball manager has gone from old-school instinct to being a servant to meddling, data-driven front offices — or baseball operations departments, as they would rather be known.

 

It’s the new reality of Major League Baseball and the challenges certainly are not unique to a Blue Jays team currently in the glare for a spectacular failure tied to that dynamic.

 

That said, a Toronto front office that prides itself on collaboration and accountability instead appears to have created a culture of paranoia and distrust with those closer to the front line.

 

General manager Ross Atkins’ rather spectacular rolling of the bus over John Schneider this past weekend is just the latest divide between the front office and the field.

 

In fact, all three managers who have worked under the Atkins-Mark Shapiro regime have all had varying challenges to their authority and autonomy.

 

And, as we’ve seen with the Schneider saga, it’s a contentious relationship that also runs the risk of tearing apart a clubhouse. The aftermath of the early end to Jose Berrios’ night in the disastrous Game 2 elimination last week at Target Field undoubtedly will affect the team going forward.

 

Atkins’ denial that he had anything to do with Schneider’s call to bring in Yusei Kikuchi in the fourth inning was a dramatic and bombastic twist in a narrative that certainly has the potential to be disruptive.

 

Players aren’t ignorant to what is is going on in front or their eyes in the biggest moment of the season and were no doubt in a state of disbelief as the idiocy unfolded in front of them.

 

So what happened in Minneapolis?

 

Did a phone ring in the dugout, prompting what appeared to be a rattled Schneider to make the move?

 

Was the front-office pressure so overt that he felt he had no choice in the matter, despite Berrios dealing with a clear mental and physical edge on Twins hitters?

 

In the aftermath, Atkins added to the absurdity by denying it was his call and that he had “100% confidence it was not front-office pressure” that spurred Schneider into the erratic action.

 

“I was surprised he was coming out,” the embattled GM incredulously added.

 

Few are buying it, however, as the team’s intent to tightly rein its managers continued. As one source familiar with the Jays front office to dugout dynamic noted to the Toronto Sun: “No one in their right mind believes that (Schneider) made that decision on his own.”

 

No one in their right mind believes that he made that decision on his own.

 

A BLUE JAYS SOURCE ON JOHN SCHNEIDER PULLING JOSE BERRIOS.

 

In reality, the disconnect between the front office and the manager’s chair has had varying degrees of volatility for the past seven seasons.

 

The first manager of the Shapiro-Atkins reign was fan and player favourite John Gibbons, a match doomed to failure from the day it began. The problem for the front office was that the old-school Gibby teams were playoff stalwarts in 2015 and 2016, so it would take two more seasons and a teardown before they could run him out of town.

 

In his book released earlier this year, Gibby: Tales of A Baseball Lifer, Gibbons described the challenges.

 

“It was truly so different for me than it had been working with (former GMs J.P. Ricciardi and Alex Anthopoulos),” Gibbons wrote. “Decisions were made, and not only was I not consulted, but they directly changed how I operated.”

 

In other words, the old-school managerial style had no place. Gibbons further explained that the coercion from the front office demanded a certain passive personality to fit.

 

“Because some guys are very flexible and they want a job so bad, they’ll do anything to appease everybody to save themselves,” Gibbons wrote. “Not me. I figure bosses should know the real person they’re getting, not some phoney politician.”

 

One of the nicest men in baseball, Montoyo had no idea of the bees nest he was walking into. He would soon find out.

 

In his early time, Montoyo did some admirable work and, in particular, shepherded what was a homeless team through the pandemic-disrupted 2020 and 2021 seasons. But the disconnect with Atkins was brewing and apparent to all around the team by the summer of 2022.

 

In the final weeks of his tenure, manager and general manager rarely talked and everyone around the team — Montoyo included — knew his days were numbered.

 

The fact that Montoyo hasn’t said a word about his time in Toronto — good or bad — speaks to his class in taking the high road. But it’s clear from those who know him that he felt intimidated by management at times.

 

Which brings us to Schneider, whose old-school personality is kept in check. Sharp, well-spoken and a good communicator, Schneider has had to endure growing pains on the job while having his freedom to act under tight rein from above.

 

He was made to squirm after the 2022 season, waiting for his interim tag to be removed, and now is smacked by the indignity of having his boss chip away at his credibility for blaming him for the botched Berrios call.

 

Mismanaging managers, it seems, has become the Blue Jays way.

[mphenhef]

I can think of an Orioles managerial decision that was just as bad that we were on the winning side of.

[Stangstag]

I can think of an Orioles managerial decision that was just as bad that we were on the winning side of.

 

Yeah except that decision was baffling whether you’re a new-school analytics guy or a game/feel/dinosaur guy

[mphenhef]

It wasn't a managerial decision. He decided nothing. It was decided for him.

 

this is just it. Sure Ross might not have told JS "Hey, you are going to take Berrios out after one turn through the order" but you can be damned sure he has directed him to listen to the people in those pre game meetings.

[Omar]

this is just it. Sure Ross might not have told JS "Hey, you are going to take Berrios out after one turn through the order" but you can be damned sure he has directed him to listen to the people in those pre game meetings.

 

You think Theron Simpson is dictating to the coaches staff what to do in game? He has barely four years major league scouting experience. Not sure where the truth lays in this situation but that ain't it.

[The Cats Ass]

this is just it. Sure Ross might not have told JS "Hey, you are going to take Berrios out after one turn through the order" but you can be damned sure he has directed him to listen to the people in those pre game meetings.

 

There's a big difference between "listen to everything they say" and "act on everything they say".

[The Cats Ass]

Exactly. I mean, I'm sure they have analytics guys who ball-gamed certain scenarios for if Berrios wasn't looking sharp and what not, but there's no way there was a concrete plan to pull him after 3 innings if he was dealing. One would think that Schneider would've learned after the Gausman debacle last postseason, but the guy's just stubborn.

 

Schneider sometimes gets too caught up with R/L matchups at times it seems. I guess it makes sense now why Walker seemed kinda pissed just before Berrios was pulled. I bet he tried talking some sense into Schneider.