2023 Post-Mortem Thread

[TheHurl]

Does anyone remember that Must win game against the Yankees way back on Sept 27 where Berrios was lights out thru 3 (no hit, 5 K's) walked the first guy in the 4th and then got out of it completely unscathed? Me neither

[Steeljays]

Bullpen:

Keep Romano, Green, Yimi, Swanson, Mayza, Cabrera, for the active roster. Cimber is a non tender, Parsons an obvious DFA. I’d try to trade Richards because he’s only 1 year left, he still has value but Romano, Mayza, Cabrera and Swanson need raises and I’d rather give his money to other guys. I’d really want to try and bring back Hicks but with the other guys getting raises I just don’t see it happening unless he takes a pretty significant discount. Still have open spots for guys like Pearson, Danner, Pop, Zulu, Francis (if he’s not in the rotation) and other guys not currently on the 40 man to fight over.

 

Green is a bit of a wildcard here as I don’t think I’d want him for 3 more years at 9, but he would definitely decline his option then, and then the Jays would owe him high AAV for only 2 years..or he walks. Best case really is if he takes his 1 year 6.25 option after the jays decline their first option. Doubt that happens, but it could if he feels like a good year can set him up for another multiyear deal for 2025 and beyond. But if something weird happens and green isn’t back, throw that money at Hicks.

 

White is another wildcard for the pen as I’m sure he’ll get a shot at a rotation spot if he’s still with the team given his late season successes at AAA. I’m not entirely sure if he’s a free agent or if he just becomes rule 5 eligible so I’ll withhold a full opinion until that is clarified.

 

Rotation:

4 names are set in stone unless a trade happens so the 5th spot right now is likely between Francis, Tiedemann(if they can manage innings effectively enough) Manoah (maybe?) the minor league guys and White depending on his status. There’s tons of back end starters in free agency this off-season too so #5 could possibly come from outside the org.

 

Lineup:

Goodbye Chapman, KK, Merrifield, Belt, Heineman, Eden. Jimenez, Lukes and Lopez could be DFA and lost but…whatever. Biggio stays as a bench guy. I think Horwitz gets a shot at being DH. Clement on the bench as I believe he is out of options after this season.

 

C: Jansen

1b: Vlad

2b: Schneider

SS: Bo

3b: Possible internal competition of Barger and Orelvis though I suspect this will be filled externally for a glove first stop gap

LF: ? - must not be brain dead defensively or on the bases. Would really help to hit left handed with actual power.

CF: Varsho

RF: Springer

DH: Horwitz

 

Bench:

Kirk

Biggio

Clement

Backup OF who can play passable CF

 

Rule 5 likely adds: Macko, Lantigua, White(if eligible - see above)

 

I would package Davis in a deal . I don't view him as a long term piece. I think he has intriguing value right now. Not saying give him away but if a deal can be made and get over value then I am fine. I also don't think Horowitz is a piece.

[thatoneguy]

Good on Merrifield for taking a dump on management. f*** these clowns.

[Omar]

Pulling Berrios is the worst management decision I have ever seen a Blue Jays manager make. Yes i was there there through the Jimy (one m) Williams years. It completed deflated the team and you could feel air being taken out of the room. It was a psychological blow that they could not recover from. On the field it resulted in a two run deficit for a team that is terrible when trailing. The players know it. Former players know it. It cost them the game. What a dreadful turning point.

 

If John Schneider doesn't have the cajones to be his own man in the dugout he is in the wrong profession.

[PitaBaby]

Does anyone remember that Must win game against the Yankees way back on Sept 27 where Berrios was lights out thru 3 (no hit, 5 K's) walked the first guy in the 4th and then got out of it completely unscathed? Me neither

 

This entire season has been one gigantic dumpster fire. Time to bring out the propane.

[Daniel Labude]

money talks but I alreayd knew he was as good as gone after the on field interview he gave during the Apple telecast - he didn't seem happy here

 

Nobody did. s***** defensive veterans killed the team lol

[bigshot84]

i literally gave up when john schneider brought same batting order today

[TorontonianJD]

Watching the post game show, you could tell Siddall was pissed at the Berrios move and he also strongly hinted that it was not JS’s decision at all.

[Doubleplay21]

i literally gave up when john schneider brought same batting order today

 

Stop blaming Schneider.

The analytics team manages the Jays

[Jonn]

I don't really understand what the point of managing is if someone else is making decisions for you. It makes no f***ing sense.

[Doubleplay21]

I don't really understand what the point of managing is if someone else is making decisions for you. It makes no f***ing sense.

 

Schneider is the front man for the media

[Jonn]

Schneider is the front man for the media

 

I just don't know why anyone would want that job... the job is making decisions but you aren't actually making them.

[Jimcanuck]

The field boss has to have a veto over the computer geek orders. The players aren't robots.

[Carlos Danger]

I just can't believe the FO didn't learn anything from the Snell debacle... I mean seriously....

[Nexii]

I don't believe that pulling Berrios was a good decision even from an analytics perspective. You're burning up the entire bullpen, leaving nothing in the tank even if it does go to game 3

 

Jays are being overmanaged, there's a weird feeling of insecurity and trying to do too much. Just pull the ball and keep starters in for 80-90 pitches

[Doubleplay21]

I just don't know why anyone would want that job... the job is making decisions but you aren't actually making them.

 

The game changed with Moneyball

[Bear]

I think we all knew how this was going to end, so we shouldn't be surprised.

 

I'm honestly not sure what direction the organization needs to take. I can't see how you can modify/add to this core and make them into a tier 1 championship caliber team.

 

Unfortunately this year's free agent crop after the top guys is quite thin. Our farm has some assets, but nowhere where we'd like to be. We will have to make decisions on what to do with BO and Vlad contract wise very soon. A lot of the veterans are locked up for a few more years and came to Toronto to have a chance to win. Also, the Orioles will be good for a bit, the Yanks and Red Sox won't stay down for long, and the Rays are going to be the Rays.

 

I feel like we're in for a few more seasons of a decent/good ball team but not that team that can win it all, unfortunately.

[TheHurl]

The field boss has to have a veto over the computer geek orders. The players aren't robots.

 

The manager has use all the date provided to him and game plan with many scenarios to reduce the runs against. He did that. And once again it worked. Fire him for the offense. The decision was right.

[Doubleplay21]

Schneider said in his press conference Kukuchi was predetermined no matter what

Schneider being a good company man

[hanton]

I want to see those analytics

[Carlos Danger]

Bullpen:

Keep Romano, Green, Yimi, Swanson, Mayza, Cabrera, for the active roster. Cimber is a non tender, Parsons an obvious DFA. I’d try to trade Richards because he’s only 1 year left, he still has value but Romano, Mayza, Cabrera and Swanson need raises and I’d rather give his money to other guys. I’d really want to try and bring back Hicks but with the other guys getting raises I just don’t see it happening unless he takes a pretty significant discount. Still have open spots for guys like Pearson, Danner, Pop, Zulu, Francis (if he’s not in the rotation) and other guys not currently on the 40 man to fight over.

 

Green is a bit of a wildcard here as I don’t think I’d want him for 3 more years at 9, but he would definitely decline his option then, and then the Jays would owe him high AAV for only 2 years..or he walks. Best case really is if he takes his 1 year 6.25 option after the jays decline their first option. Doubt that happens, but it could if he feels like a good year can set him up for another multiyear deal for 2025 and beyond. But if something weird happens and green isn’t back, throw that money at Hicks.

 

White is another wildcard for the pen as I’m sure he’ll get a shot at a rotation spot if he’s still with the team given his late season successes at AAA. I’m not entirely sure if he’s a free agent or if he just becomes rule 5 eligible so I’ll withhold a full opinion until that is clarified.

 

Rotation:

4 names are set in stone unless a trade happens so the 5th spot right now is likely between Francis, Tiedemann(if they can manage innings effectively enough) Manoah (maybe?) the minor league guys and White depending on his status. There’s tons of back end starters in free agency this off-season too so #5 could possibly come from outside the org.

 

Lineup:

Goodbye Chapman, KK, Merrifield, Belt, Heineman, Eden. Jimenez, Lukes and Lopez could be DFA and lost but…whatever. Biggio stays as a bench guy. I think Horwitz gets a shot at being DH. Clement on the bench as I believe he is out of options after this season.

 

C: Jansen

1b: Vlad

2b: Schneider

SS: Bo

3b: Possible internal competition of Barger and Orelvis though I suspect this will be filled externally for a glove first stop gap

LF: ? - must not be brain dead defensively or on the bases. Would really help to hit left handed with actual power.

CF: Varsho

RF: Springer

DH: Horwitz

 

Bench:

Kirk

Biggio

Clement

Backup OF who can play passable CF

 

Rule 5 possible adds: Macko, Lantigua, White(if eligible - see above), there’s a bunch more but these 3 are the most likely imo.

 

Why should we continue to roll with Vlad? What makes anyone think he will get better. His contract will be an Albatross if we extend him and I have zero faith in his physique long term. He is a replaceable bat and upgradeable 1B.

 

Move him before his value dips and don't let him be a heartbeat of the team.

[Terminator]

I wonder what you could get for Vlad. He might not even be providing surplus value anymore as his final arb years eclipse 20 million.

[Jimcanuck]

Schneider said in his press conference Kukuchi was predetermined no matter what

Schneider being a good company man

 

And therein lies the problem. If Berrios comes in walks a couple, struggles somewhat with command, then sure. If he has good command and getting a good number of swinging strikes, that predetermined plan needs to be adjusted. By the field boss based on the in-game dynamics.

[John_Havok]

I'm not nearly as upset about the pitching decision. I know that will be the story in many ways, I don't like it, but at least I understand where it was coming from and Kikuchi really did not pitch poorly. The story of this game and their season is the offense. The front office sacrificed our offense for defense, they went too far and it f***ed us.

 

And really? You have cucks on here reporting people for saying "****"? Good God people are tissue soft these days. It's an everyday word in Australia.

 

No s***. Whatever **** reported the other **** for saying **** is the ****iest **** who ever ****ed.

[Doubleplay21]

And therein lies the problem. If Berrios comes in walks a couple, struggles somewhat with command, then sure. If he has good command and getting a good number of swinging strikes, that predetermined plan needs to be adjusted. By the field boss based on the in-game dynamics.

 

In game dynamics are against the spreadsheet

[John_Havok]

Why should we continue to roll with Vlad? What makes anyone think he will get better. His contract will be an Albatross if we extend him and I have zero faith in his physique long term. He is a replaceable bat and upgradeable 1B.

 

Move him before his value dips and don't let him be a heartbeat of the team.

 

I’m not saying they have to, just saying it’s pretty likely.

[Omar]

The manager has use all the date provided to him and game plan with many scenarios to reduce the runs against. He did that. And once again it worked. Fire him for the offense. The decision was right.

 

So you're saying taking out a pitcher who is pitching the game of his lifetime in a win or go home game, with a 0-0 score, after only 47 pitches thrown with a runner on first base and none outs; and then putting in a starter unfamiliar with the role of reliever (and who struggled down the stretch), who then proceeds to load the bases with none out eventually allowing two runs to score is a good outcome? That was Schneiders plan that worked? That was the plan? "It worked" !!??

[Terminator]

I'm not nearly as upset about the pitching decision. I know that will be the story in many ways, I don't like it, but at least I understand where it was coming from and Kikuchi really did not pitch poorly. The story of this game and their season is the offense. The front office sacrificed our offense for defense, they went too far and it f***ed us.

 

And really? You have cucks on here reporting people for saying "****"? Good God people are tissue soft these days. It's an everyday word in Australia.

 

I agree. The pitching decision was a little too cute for its own good but it really did screw the Twins for the rest of the game. They burned their pinch hitters and our right handed relievers mowed them down.

 

I agree on the offense but I don't think it's a matter of the front office sacrificing too much. It's a matter of underperformance. Why did so many guys underperform?

[Doubleplay21]

Vlad is considered uncoachable

He does what he does and will not change

Explore trades. If he stays bat him 5th not 3rd

[Grant77]

The team never had a long winning streak all year, even with the SPs we have. We couldn't win a clinching game against a team that had nothing to play for and started scrubs in a bull pen game. A Tiger doesn't change it stripes...

 

Bo has not shown, the ability to play solid D in the playoffs and let himself get caught up in the moment and some bad ABs at key times even thought he did get a bunch of hits. Vlad has not shown he is a leader and a star player. Offense, defense and base running.

 

Biggio batting 5th for a playoff game is a major roster construction issue.

 

Varsho succumbing to the pressure and doing something he never does on D.

 

Did no one learn from taking Snell out of the Rays game?? FFS???

 

The hitting coaches need to go for no other reason then to flush the stench.

 

I tuned out after the Chapman DP, but what exactly did Bo do wrong on defense? It seems like a ridiculous thing to bring up at this point. His defense was never a serious issue all season.