General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[max silver]

Correct, due to lack of organizational pitching depth, which Carlos was on his soap box about every spring training

 

Yeah the depth was a definite issue that season. I recall that the rotation depth looked decent heading into the season, but all of the depth options either got hurt or sucked. That was at least better than the actual rotation suffering a bunch of injuries for sure but far from ideal.

[max silver]

I have literally been shouting that from the rooftops on this board for years! Bo, Vlad, Biggio, all rich kids. None of them were going to sign for security of generational wealth like Acuna a poor kid from the island.

 

We will have the same issue with Will Wagner if he gets really good.

 

That would be a nice problem to have if Wagner is actually good enough to warrant an extension.

[leaffie]

This FO came here promising lots and blaming AA for everything. Making the playoffs when they were finally expanded and never winning a game with a more than adequate payroll and having one of the bottom farm systems in mlb is their legacy.

 

Every single team in mlb has successes in trades or draft picks, including shatkin, but those two have been a dismal failure and should have been fired years ago.

[max silver]

This FO came here promising lots and blaming AA for everything. Making the playoffs when they were finally expanded and never winning a game with a more than adequate payroll and having one of the bottom farm systems in mlb is their legacy.

 

Every single team in mlb has successes in trades or draft picks, including shatkin, but those two have been a dismal failure and should have been fired years ago.

 

When did the current front office blame AA for anything let alone everything? All we have to go off of is a rumor of a meeting where Shapiro supposedly "chastised" AA for selling the farm at the trade deadline. This is a one sided accounting that for all we know could have simply been Shapiro expressing concern over going all in at the trade deadline and emptying the upper levels of the minors of most of the quality prospects right before he was due to take over. This would be far from the first time that a salacious rumor was spread while being worded in such a fashion to frame it as much bigger of a story than it actually was.

 

The teams as constructed were plenty good to win games or even series if they simply performed up to their talent level in 2022/2023. Unfortunately this didn't happen, likely due to some combination of poor coaching/preparation, bad managerial moves in some instances, or simply players choking under pressure when under the big lights of the playoffs. The team was not perfect by any means and certainly had it's flaws, but the MLB playoffs during the wild card era have shown over and over again that even the worst teams heading into the playoffs can get hot at the right time and win games and even win series against teams with vastly superior regular season records.

Edited December 30, 2024 by max silver

[Brownie19]

That's my biggest issue with articles like this in that they tend to be long on emotion and short on actual facts. This author is nothing more than a rage peddler and has been holding a grudge against the current front office from day 1 so it's no surprise that he would attempt to twist the facts into a bunch of fan fiction level narratives instead of objectively utilizing the truth to create a balanced article.

 

Boy - where have we seen this before? lol

[Spanky99]

I take issue with a lot of what's written here.

- Complaining about an inability to lock up young stars when two of the 3 names mentioned are Bichette and Monoah. Sure, having Vlad at 300M would be nice, but we'd probably also be looking at a 300M boat anchor for Bo and 100+ for Manoah.

- Calling the Semien FA signing a bust is completely ridiculous.

- If Justin Turner is considered a bust big FA signing, why is Chris Bassitt not considered a win? Or Brandon Belt? Or Isaiah-Kiner Falefa? Yusei Kikuchi?

- Current management didn't inherit a "roster full of promise". They inherited an old team with a closed contention window and Vlad.

- The last three paragraphs are kind of just nonsense.

 

I feel like a lot of the Toronto media know that things haven't worked out here over the last couple of years, but don't know enough about baseball to actually understand the reasons why.

 

The biggest issue isn't that they "tried and failed to be big" (whatever that means). It's that they completely failed at development. Like, worst in class level ineptitude at producing young MLB players.

 

I hate that bitch, he's just another Steve Simmons mouthpiece.

[Brownie19]

It feel like a lot of the Toronto media and fans know that things haven't worked out here over the last couple of years, but don't know enough about baseball to actually understand the reasons why.

 

fify

[Brownie19]

 

Well, when did it become clear that it was a problem? At the end of 2022:

 

- Kirk 4.3 fWAR age-23 season

- Jansen 2.7 fWAR age-27 season

- Espinal plucked from the trash heap and turned into a 2.4 fWAR player at 27

- Moreno knocking on the majors at 2022 and looking like a future star

- Manoah one of the best pitchers in baseball at 24

 

Cracks didn't really show until 2023, and then things fell apart in 2024.

 

I'm sure Shapiro and Atkins see the problem (though they won't admit) it, but don't know what to do about it. Which is why Atkins should have been fired already and Shapiro should now be fired for continuing to stand by him. But Rogers is really only like 3 months late in acting here.

 

BTS is on a heater. Preach.

[max silver]

I hate that bitch, she's the female version of Steve Simmons.

 

That was a Cathal Kelly article. The Rosie Dimanno version would largely feature the same bull**** fake narratives except with flowery prose sprinkled throughout.

[Spanky99]

That was a Cathal Kelly article. The Rosie Dimanno version would largely feature the same bull**** fake narratives except with flowery prose sprinkled throughout.

 

Yes, I get the 2 of them mixed up all the time.

[Carlos Danger]

When did the current front office blame AA for anything let alone everything? All we have to go off of is a rumor of a meeting where Shapiro supposedly "chastised" AA for selling the farm at the trade deadline. This is a one sided accounting that for all we know could have simply been Shapiro expressing concern over going all in at the trade deadline and emptying the upper levels of the minors of most of the quality prospects right before he was due to take over. This would be far from the first time that a salacious rumor was spread while being worded in such a fashion to frame it as much bigger of a story than it actually was.

 

The teams as constructed were plenty good to win games or even series if they simply performed up to their talent level in 2022/2023. Unfortunately this didn't happen, likely due to some combination of poor coaching/preparation, bad managerial moves in some instances, or simply players choking under pressure when under the big lights of the playoffs. The team was not perfect by any means and certainly had it's flaws, but the MLB playoffs during the wild card era have shown over and over again that even the worst teams heading into the playoffs can get hot at the right time and win games and even win series against teams with vastly superior regular season records.

 

The thing about a wild card team going on a streak in the playoffs, is you need to be a streaky team to begin with. During the season I looked up the longest winning streaks for the Jays teams in the last few years and I think there was one 6 game winning streak.

 

The Jays teams have shown they are inconsistent the past few years ad opposed to streaky. Streaky would indicate long winning and losing streaks.

[Carlos Danger]

Yes, I get the 2 of them mixed up all the time.

 

I can see how you can get Cathal confused with a female from what I remember from past articles. Hadn’t heard or seen anything from “they” for years until this article.

[Spanky99]

I can see how you can get Cathal confused with a female from what I remember from past articles. Hadn’t heard or seen anything from “they” for years until this article.

 

I'm talking more about their writing style and the **** they all spew with their hostile agenda.

[Orgfiller]

I have literally been shouting that from the rooftops on this board for years! Bo, Vlad, Biggio, all rich kids. None of them were going to sign for security of generational wealth like Acuna a poor kid from the island.

 

We will have the same issue with Will Wagner if he gets really good.

 

Wagner will be close to retirement age by the time he's a free agent anyway so I think we'll survive on waiting on him to hit the open market lol.

[Jays24]

But we can all agree that AA provided the best possible team and the closest feeling we got for a world series in 2015. Objectively, we had the best and most entertaining team in baseball, no team reached that level since '93. Would have loved to see AA have the ability to see it through but Rogers had already ****ed up with hiring Shapiro and there was no going back from there. There was a lot of backlash during that time and looks even worse now.

[Carlos Danger]

But we can all agree that AA provided the best possible team and the closest feeling we got for a world series in 2015. Objectively, we had the best and most entertaining team in baseball, no team reached that level since '93. Would have loved to see AA have the ability to see it through but Rogers had already ****ed up with hiring Shapiro and there was no going back from there. There was a lot of backlash during that time and looks even worse now.

 

I want our Swagger back!!!

[Spanky99]

To be honest, all our GM's have sucked in one way or another since Gillick, flags fly forever. Ash/Ricciardi were terrible, Anthopolous and Atkins had their moments, but they ultimately failed. It is what it is, hope our next sign is a Pat Gillick.

[max silver]

But we can all agree that AA provided the best possible team and the closest feeling we got for a world series in 2015. Objectively, we had the best and most entertaining team in baseball, no team reached that level since '93. Would have loved to see AA have the ability to see it through but Rogers had already ****ed up with hiring Shapiro and there was no going back from there. There was a lot of backlash during that time and looks even worse now.

 

AA sold the farm in the way out the door and chose to abandon ship. He was offered an extension and turned it down. He absolutely could have seen things through as you suggest but chose not to.

[Spanky99]

But we can all agree that AA provided the best possible team and the closest feeling we got for a world series in 2015. Objectively, we had the best and most entertaining team in baseball, no team reached that level since '93. Would have loved to see AA have the ability to see it through but Rogers had already ****ed up with hiring Shapiro and there was no going back from there. There was a lot of backlash during that time and looks even worse now.

 

The team in '21 and '22 reached that level, just crapped the bed in the postseason of 22, that '21 team was excellent.

 

Also the latter part of this post is Garb.

[Spanky99]

AA sold the farm in the way out the door and chose to abandon ship. He was offered an extension and turned it down. He absolutely could have seen things through as you suggest but chose not to.

 

And the FO was stuck in '17 cause Rogers didn't want to sell yet, they did a good job up until '22, then the roof caved in.

[Brownie19]

But we can all agree that AA provided the best possible team and the closest feeling we got for a world series in 2015. Objectively, we had the best and most entertaining team in baseball, no team reached that level since '93. Would have loved to see AA have the ability to see it through but Rogers had already ****ed up with hiring Shapiro and there was no going back from there. There was a lot of backlash during that time and looks even worse now.

 

2016, 2021 and 2022 were all very close IMO. In 2016, we didn't have many prospects left to make the same "push" AA did in 2015. I think Atkins could be criticized for not going "all in" in 2021 and 2022. I believe this was an attempt to prolong the window and that fell flat when Vlad, Springer, Kirk, Manoah, etc. all died in 2023 and we were unable to develop the 3rd wave of talent.

 

In hindsight, we ought to have just sold all our prospects in 2021 and went for the flag.

[Spanky99]

That was the right move by AA, he credits the Dodgers on turning his career around. He indeed left Atkins with **** all to build around.

[Spanky99]

2016, 2021 and 2022 were all very close IMO. In 2016, we didn't have many prospects left to make the same "push" AA did in 2015. I think Atkins could be criticized for not going "all in" in 2021 and 2022. I believe this was an attempt to prolong the window and that fell flat when Vlad, Springer, Kirk, Manoah, etc. all died in 2023 and we were unable to develop the 3rd wave of talent.

 

In hindsight, we ought to have just sold all our prospects in 2021 and went for the flag.

 

lol... ain't that the truth.

[Jays24]

AA sold the farm in the way out the door and chose to abandon ship. He was offered an extension and turned it down. He absolutely could have seen things through as you suggest but chose not to.

 

AA sold the farm that he built... it's no different than what Shatkins has done now with a team but with a team that wasnt as good as the 2015 squad.

 

And I know you don't believe AA "chose" to leave. No one with any self worth would have stayed in that position where he was working under a guy he thought he was better than. He clearly went onto show with RESULTS why he didn't stay lol.

[Carlos Danger]

2016, 2021 and 2022 were all very close IMO. In 2016, we didn't have many prospects left to make the same "push" AA did in 2015. I think Atkins could be criticized for not going "all in" in 2021 and 2022. I believe this was an attempt to prolong the window and that fell flat when Vlad, Springer, Kirk, Manoah, etc. all died in 2023 and we were unable to develop the 3rd wave of talent.

 

In hindsight, we ought to have just sold all our prospects in 2021 and went for the flag.

 

This is because Shapiro has always had a two birds in the bush is better than a bird in the hand philosophy.

 

With Shapiro at the helm, that 2016 Indians Team never kicks our ass with Miller in the pen.

 

Say all you want about how good the 2021 team was but it didn’t even make the expanded wild card. Again, the Jays with Shapiro at the helm were being too conservative and they didn’t boost their **** pen enough and early enough (familiar theme) and it cost them.

 

Like L54 said, banners fly forever. I don’t give a hoot what AA left us (which wasn’t that bad) I am still vibing off the 2015 season to this day. Nothing has even come close! As a fan, I want that high again and that is what I want from my FO.

[wilko]

AA sold the farm that he built... it's no different than what Shatkins has done now with a team but with a team that wasnt as good as the 2015 squad.

 

And I know you don't believe AA "chose" to leave. No one with any self worth would have stayed in that position where he was working under a guy he thought he was better than. He clearly went onto show with RESULTS why he didn't stay lol.

 

The writing on the wall once a Shapiro came in. Usually they want to bring in/hire their own guys.

[Jays24]

That was the right move by AA, he credits the Dodgers on turning his career around. He indeed left Atkins with **** all to build around.

 

But this is why the fans handled the pain from 2017 to 2019 because we knew Shatkins needed time to rebuild the system for "sustainable winning." Those conmen threw around all the right buzzwords that they seem to have forget about now lol. Let's not forget the best player of the Shatkins era was Vlad and some credit AA's people for drafting Bo.

 

No one will view Shatkins in the same breath as AA, especially when you consider what AA went onto do with the Braves. We're comparing one of the best league execs to a guy who will struggle to ever that the same role in baseball again.

[Jays24]

The fact we're looking 10 years back tells you how pathetic our current situation is lol.

[L54]

248K views · 1.9K reactions | How we feeling Blue Jays fans? [Via...

WWW.FACEBOOK.COM

---

How we feeling Blue Jays fans? [Via Fan First Network]

 

This is my son

[jaysblue]

The fans complaining about how AA left this organization need to really give their head a shake and stop with the BS. The Jays were still in great shape in 2016 and World Series contenders. Who knows what would have happened in 2017 with AA still at the helm, but regardless, on paper the team still looked good heading into 2017. Obviously a slow start and injuries started to pile up, but to say the team was already finished before entering the 2017 season with the core they still had?

 

Under Atkins, we've never come anywhere close to experiencing the vibe and excitement we saw with the Jays in 2015 after the trade deadline. Heading into that Postseason, the Jays had one of the better teams on paper and you felt they were good enough to make it and win the World Series. Couldn't say that about the 2022 and 2023 teams heading into the Postseason. Maybe the 2021 team if they had a better bullpen and got to the Postseason. Otherwise, give me the two years we had in 2015 and 2016, where the Jays made it to the ALCS and were World Series contenders over the 3-4 year period we had under Atkins.