General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[AMS528]

I sometimes wonder if Vlad didn't swing quite as hard if it would help him find the sweet spot with more frequency.

 

That's interesting, and I wonder if that would be that the kind of thing a creative hitting coach would consider. Like there's gotta be something that exists to make the power viable, he's already a good hitter. I don't know if you can slow down the bat without making the rest of the mechanics out of whack but again that's what good coaching is for.

 

Bautista needed to make one change to get to fastballs without fouling them off and he became one of the best hitters on the planet for like 6 years from when he was 29-34 and past the usual best hitting years. One change can make it happen and makes the Jays retooling much more viable (while trading Bo since one thing we have is infielders and we could also try to go for Kim in the offseason).

[Jays24]

Have no fear, Bo Bichette is here. Losing streak comes to an end tonight!

[Omar]

I thought The _DH wrote the above until I got down near the bottom and realized it was a Simmons article. .

[The_DH]

I thought The _DH wrote the above until I got down near the bottom and realized it was a Simmons article. .

 

No, but I do support the analysis.

[Jimcanuck]

I sometimes wonder if Vlad didn't swing quite as hard if it would help him find the sweet spot with more frequency.

 

That's the change Bellinger has made, particularly with 2 strikes

[Spanky99]

Agreed. The 7 game losing streak has been so detrimental that the argument to buy or sell is now crystal clear. Now it's a matter of whether we re-tool or rebuild.

 

They'll retool, 100%.

[Spanky99]

I thought The _DH wrote the above until I got down near the bottom and realized it was a Simmons article. .

 

Simmons with the the *thanks captain obvious article* lulz

[Brownie19]

No, but I do support the analysis.

 

You know Steve Simmons is a f***ing moron right?

[The_DH]

Simmons with the the *thanks captain obvious article* lulz

 

That was more why I posted it: it seems the discussion of how change is to be implemented is getting more wide-spread. Let's face it, a bunch of schlubs on a discussion board won't do it, but the larger media might. Brownie posts that he's a moron, but do you disagree with his article?

[Brownie19]

That was more why I posted it: it seems the discussion of how change is to be implemented is getting more wide-spread. Let's face it, a bunch of schlubs on a discussion board won't do it, but the larger media might. Brownie posts that he's a moron, but do you disagree with his article?

 

Yes - I disagree with several aspects of that article (none of which have to do with Atkins being fired - that is 100% coming). Steve Simmons is one of the worst sports writers in Canadian sports history. The Sun is so bad I wouldn't use it to wrap fish and chips.

[wilko]

If the Jays were a stock, you would have sold long ago.

 

And it’s not just the offence. It’s pitching, too.

 

Last season, the Blue Jays had the second-best earned run average in the AL. Now they’re 11th. They gave up the seventh-most home runs, now only one team is worse than them.

 

Last season, they were second in strikeouts. This year, 13th.

 

Last season’s bullpen had an earned run average that ranked fifth-best. This year, it’s 12th, having given up the most home runs after being ninth-best last year.

 

It’s hard to find a category of any kind that gives promise to this team, at this time, or next year, or the year after that — which is what the general manager’s job is all about.

 

He is about today, tomorrow, next week and next year. You make a mistake, the great Pat Gillick told me many times, you fix the mistake. Everyone makes them. The best GMs find ways around them.

 

Atkins has been on the job since 2016, when he inherited a playoff team from Anthopoulos. Putting that first season aside, the Blue Jays have been 555-555 in Atkins’ real time as GM. Those are the kind of numbers that got Ash and Ricciardi dismissed.

 

Yes, the Jays won 91-92-and-89 games in recent seasons — impressive on the wins scale — but in each those years, they won zero playoff games.

 

Zero.

 

In his time with the Blue Jays, not giving him credit for the 2016 team, Atkins’ Blue Jays have not won a single playoff game.

 

The Rays have won 16 in that time. The Yankees have won 21. The Red Sox 18. Explain that one, Ed Rogers. You too, Mark Shapiro.

 

That’s your American League East. And that’s not including the suddenly overwhelming Baltimore Orioles.

 

Atkins fired manager Charlie Montoyo in 2022 with a record of 46-42 because he didn’t like the way the Jays were playing. And it was the right call at the time.’

 

John Gibbons got fired the first time mid-season with a 35-39 record. Jimy Williams had the worst mark in 1989 with a 12-24 record. And Carlos Tosca was let go as manager when the Jays were 47-64 in 2004. No complaints about any of those decisions.

 

The Jays are 35-43 on Tuesday afternoon, which isn’t terrible, but it is in their division. They are 16 games and 160 runs behind the Yankees, who finished seven games behind behind the Jays last season. They are 14 games and 161 runs behind the Orioles.

 

They are 7.5 games out of the final wild-card spot — but with six teams ahead of them that makes it an impossible climb.

 

Blue Jays officially hit rock bottom following meltdown in Beantown in loss to Red Sox

Spencer Horwitz's two homers not enough as Blue Jays swept in back-to-back series

They are, in a word, nowhere.

 

And the trade deadline is approaching. If Atkins turned last year’s 89-win team into this, why should he be rewarded or even allowed to make deals that will shape the Jays future?

 

Why not move on right now?

 

The time is right if the season isn’t. The time to say goodbye to Ross Atkins was yesterday.

 

ssimmons@postmedia.com

 

twitter.com/simmonssteve

 

Quoting Steve Simmons? That's a bold move.

[Brownie19]

jaysblue - I just wanted to let you know I'm on my annual golf trip with the boys next week. You may notice my active on this board is reduced. This isn't me running away or going into hiding. I will not tell you where I'm going because you're a f***ing creep. Thank you.

[The_DH]

Quoting Steve Simmons? That's a bold move.

 

My point is more that it's getting around. Shapiro has to be answering to the board/Edward Rogers.

[Brownie19]

My point is more that it's getting around. Shapiro has to be answering to the board/Edward Rogers.

 

What's getting around? That the Blue Jays suck this year and change is needed? The fact you even read a Steve Simmons article says it all.

[The_DH]

I read a lot of different opinions and writers, some I agree with, some I completely disagree with. In this case, I think the article reflects a common opinion that will have some impact on Rogers and what they'll do. You don't learn anything only reading the opinions of those with whom you agree. There was only one writer who I thought had no direct resources and made things up and thus didn't read his work -- Marty York.

I used to read the posts of the guys that were in tune with the young Dominicans. A lot of what they wrote was ******** but they usually had a few facts of who's being signed and where they're going.

[max silver]

I read a lot of different opinions and writers, some I agree with, some I completely disagree with. In this case, I think the article reflects a common opinion that will have some impact on Rogers and what they'll do. You don't learn anything only reading the opinions of those with whom you agree. There was only one writer who I thought had no direct resources and made things up and thus didn't read his work -- Marty York.

I used to read the posts of the guys that were in tune with the young Dominicans. A lot of what they wrote was ******** but they usually had a few facts of who's being signed and where they're going.

 

Simmons is nothing more than an outrage peddler that panders to the lowest common denominator and really isn't worth giving any attention to.

[AMS528]

I read a lot of different opinions and writers, some I agree with, some I completely disagree with. In this case, I think the article reflects a common opinion that will have some impact on Rogers and what they'll do. You don't learn anything only reading the opinions of those with whom you agree. There was only one writer who I thought had no direct resources and made things up and thus didn't read his work -- Marty York.

I used to read the posts of the guys that were in tune with the young Dominicans. A lot of what they wrote was ******** but they usually had a few facts of who's being signed and where they're going.

 

f***ing Marty York. The worst sports writer in Toronto history. And I just learned he apparently became the director of comms for B'Nai Brith, although I don't know if he still is. Should make you skeptical of anything coming out of there.

[BatFlip]

f***ing Marty York. The worst sports writer in Toronto history. And I just learned he apparently became the director of comms for B'Nai Brith, although I don't know if he still is. Should make you skeptical of anything coming out of there.

 

Marty f-king York. I still remember that hack.

 

Rosie DiManno is like Marty York lite and that's saying something.

[Laika]

I read a lot of different opinions and writers, some I agree with, some I completely disagree with. In this case, I think the article reflects a common opinion that will have some impact on Rogers and what they'll do. You don't learn anything only reading the opinions of those with whom you agree. There was only one writer who I thought had no direct resources and made things up and thus didn't read his work -- Marty York.

I used to read the posts of the guys that were in tune with the young Dominicans. A lot of what they wrote was ******** but they usually had a few facts of who's being signed and where they're going.

 

Yeah it's hard to disagree with anything he says

 

I was cautiously optimistic on this team and Atkins before this season. I thought there was a chance that the offense in 2023 was a blip and the farm would prove stronger than people thought. I still think the "no playoff wins" thing is a cheap shot since the postseason in baseball is just plinko anyway.

 

Turns out that 2023 was not a blip. There are fundamental issues with the way this team coaches and curates talent. Hard to see it any other way.

 

Even if you give Atkins a pass on the MLB roster and say "bullpens are f***ing random and the offense being bad is mostly Vlad, Bo, Kirk, and Springer's fault. the GM doesn't play the games" that does not explain the piss poor drafting and developmental record which doesn't look any better as this season goes along.

[The_DH]

Originally I thought Shatkins would finish the season but there's too much noise suggesting they may be the first out the door. I was not optimistic at the start of the season only because I tend to find that some rookies will get better, some older guys will get worse and the rest will be about the same. I figured Springer and KK would get worse (though not this bad) and the pitchers who were incredible last year would fall a bit more back to their expected average (which seems to be the case). When Shatkins said that crap about the players will all get better it was at that point that I lost confidence in him.

[Laika]

Originally I thought Shatkins would finish the season but there's too much noise suggesting they may be the first out the door. I was not optimistic at the start of the season only because I tend to find that some rookies will get better, some older guys will get worse and the rest will be about the same. I figured Springer and KK would get worse (though not this bad) and the pitchers who were incredible last year would fall a bit more back to their expected average (which seems to be the case). When Shatkins said that crap about the players will all get better it was at that point that I lost confidence in him.

 

I think even the negative nancies did not expect Toronto to be this bad

 

The worst realistic expectation would be closer to a .500 team that misses the playoffs and has an awkward trade deadline decision

 

this many games under .500 on June 26th with 5% playoff odds is horrendous when compared to preseason projections

 

but, blessing in disguise if it can lead to the front office and coaching staff getting sorted and the rebuild process accelerating

[Eat My Shatkins]

Things weren't terrible as long as they kept winning 90ish games a season and getting a crack at finding lightning in a bottle for the playoffs.

 

But the team falling apart this season combined with a very low rated farm system is not a good look for Atkins or Shapiro.

 

After 8 years of building a farm system that was supposed to keep a steady trickle of MLB talent coming, there is solid depth being graduated right now and more coming. But the high end talent is just not there, and even the high end prospects they traded haven't amounted to much if anything with their new teams.

 

Developing decent MLB depth is one thing, but you need to bring along some star power too, and they haven't been able to do that. Now the stars they did have are all s***ing the bed and there isn't a decent core to even build around anymore.

 

For sure some heads are going to roll. Hopefully the new FO can find and develop sustainable MLB stars.

[connorp]

Yeah it's hard to disagree with anything he says

 

I was cautiously optimistic on this team and Atkins before this season. I thought there was a chance that the offense in 2023 was a blip and the farm would prove stronger than people thought. I still think the "no playoff wins" thing is a cheap shot since the postseason in baseball is just plinko anyway.

 

Turns out that 2023 was not a blip. There are fundamental issues with the way this team coaches and curates talent. Hard to see it any other way.

 

Even if you give Atkins a pass on the MLB roster and say "bullpens are f***ing random and the offense being bad is mostly Vlad, Bo, Kirk, and Springer's fault. the GM doesn't play the games" that does not explain the piss poor drafting and developmental record which doesn't look any better as this season goes along.

 

Does swallowing jizz equate to cautiously optimistic?

 

Openly, I may add.

[BCZ]

Attend/Game down significantly from last year and I expect this number to keep dropping if they don't turn things around fast:

 

2024 Attend/G: 33,203

2023 Attend/G: 37,307

[wilko]

Does swallowing jizz equate to cautiously optimistic?

 

Openly, I may add.

 

That's probably the one that did it.

[John_Havok]

That's probably the one that did it.

 

Seems likely

[Carlos Danger]

Yeah it's hard to disagree with anything he says

 

I was cautiously optimistic on this team and Atkins before this season. I thought there was a chance that the offense in 2023 was a blip and the farm would prove stronger than people thought. I still think the "no playoff wins" thing is a cheap shot since the postseason in baseball is just plinko anyway.

.

 

I think the zero post season wins is more of an overall metric to reflect lack of forward progress.

 

There was no substantive improvement in the overall result or performance of the org YTY since 2020.

 

No AL East champs, not even first WC I don’t believe.

[Omar]

Next year I (or someone else) should put up a poll asking "how many games do you think the Jays will win this season?". Reason being is that some (a lot?) of posters come on here complaining about every aspect of the roster with hindsight tucked away nicely in the rear view mirror. They don't stick their necks out on a position but are the first with " See this team sucks..."

 

I thought this team would win 87 games this season and make WC3. Thought the bullpen would be great. Didn't like the signings of IKF, Turner, and KK. It's all there if you look for the receipts.

 

Next year put up or shaddup!

[Carlos Danger]

Next year I (or someone else) should put up a poll asking "how many games do you think the Jays will win this season?". Reason being is that some (a lot?) of posters come on here complaining about every aspect of the roster with hindsight tucked away nicely in the rear view mirror. They don't stick their necks out on a position but are the first with " See this team sucks..."

 

I thought this team would win 87 games this season and make WC3. Thought the bullpen would be great. Didn't like the signings of IKF, Turner, and KK. It's all there if you look for the receipts.

 

Next year put up or shaddup!

 

I think a lot of that is in the Bold Predictions thread isn't it?

 

I know I said no WC, and Detroit would finish ahead of us or WC3 or something like that.

[The_DH]

I think a lot of that is in the Bold Predictions thread isn't it?

 

I know I said no WC, and Detroit would finish ahead of us or WC3 or something like that.

 

I think you're right. I had the team closer to .500 I think. The pitching was really healthy and I thought there may be a decrease here. And as for the offense, I expected about the same as last year. I did not expect Bo to s*** the bed though.