GDT: Game 3/3 Rays @ Jays, April 16 at 1:37 EDT

[max silver]

Wow it certainly didn't take long for the knives to come out for Manoah. Dude explodes onto the scene and posts some of the all time best early career numbers as a Jay for 50+ starts, and as soon as he struggles for a handful of starts he's public enemy number 1. Too fat to pitch, too busy stuffing his face to train, fake tough guy who should just shut the f*** up, acts like a clown etc. I could see this level of derision if he pitched for the Red Sox or Yankees but it's a little surprising to see this level of hate for a guy who pitches for the Jays, appears to be a model teammate etc.

[Brownie19]

Wow it certainly didn't take long for the knives to come out for Manoah. Dude explodes onto the scene and posts some of the all time best early career numbers as a Jay for 50+ starts, and as soon as he struggles for a handful of starts he's public enemy number 1. Too fat to pitch, too busy stuffing his face to train, fake tough guy who should just shut the f*** up, acts like a clown etc. I could see this level of derision if he pitched for the Red Sox or Yankees but it's a little surprising to see this level of hate for a guy who pitches for the Jays, appears to be a model teammate etc.

 

It was the same story for Lawrie and Stroman too. Nothing new here. And what gives you the impression he's a model teammate?

[max silver]

It was the same story for Lawrie and Stroman too. Nothing new here. And what gives you the impression he's a model teammate?

 

Everything I've seen of Manoah suggests he's a great teammate. He has his teammates backs on social media, is always one of the first guys to congratulate his teammates on a good play on the field, he is always available to cheer on his teammates during the game even when he's starting that day etc. etc. etc.

[Krylian]

Wow it certainly didn't take long for the knives to come out for Manoah. Dude explodes onto the scene and posts some of the all time best early career numbers as a Jay for 50+ starts, and as soon as he struggles for a handful of starts he's public enemy number 1. Too fat to pitch, too busy stuffing his face to train, fake tough guy who should just shut the f*** up, acts like a clown etc. I could see this level of derision if he pitched for the Red Sox or Yankees but it's a little surprising to see this level of hate for a guy who pitches for the Jays, appears to be a model teammate etc.

 

If you think having the body he has puts him in the best position to have success then I guess he should just do what he's doing.

[max silver]

If you think having the body he has puts him in the best position to have success then I guess he should just do what he's doing.

 

I'd like for you to point out where I said Manoah doesn't have room to potentially improve his physical conditioning. I'm just not the type to immediately start fat shaming a professional athlete as soon as he starts to struggle a little bit. Manoah really doesn't look all that different to me compared to last season, and he garnered serious Cy Young consideration last season with a very similar frame to the one he's featuring at the moment.

 

If you want to think that his physique is the primary reason why he suddenly can't locate his pitches and his stuff has dropped across the board then you can go ahead and do so.

[John_Havok]

My personal take, and I am not the author of the tweet but like that it summarizes what we can all see, is that Manoah is either hiding an injury of some sort or he's out of shape (he's always been big but looks a lot bigger this year) and with the pitch clock he's just gassed because he can't stand around rubbing the ball up behind the mound to catch his breath.

 

I would buy this argument, except he sucked from the first pitch of the game, and then reigned it in later on, deeper in the game when the fatness/conditioning would in theory be making it worse. Warm up pitches wouldnt be a factor since you get the same # of warmup pitches before every inning.

 

I don't know the answer, but I don't think the above is it either. 1st inning he was losing nearly every pitch up and arm side early on, that strikes me as being mechanic related.

[Brownie19]

Everything I've seen of Manoah suggests he's a great teammate. He has his teammates backs on social media, is always one of the first guys to congratulate his teammates on a good play on the field, he is always available to cheer on his teammates during the game even when he's starting that day etc. etc. etc.

 

It might be better to see whether his teammates have his back on social media (and maybe they do, or some do). He likes to run his mouth a lot - it will be interesting if his teammates remain fully supportive of his actions or not. I for one hope that:

 

a) he matures and stops acting like the world is against him; and

he starts pitching better.

[Krylian]

I'd like for you to point out where I said Manoah doesn't have room to potentially improve his physical conditioning. I'm just not the type to immediately start fat shaming a professional athlete as soon as he starts to struggle a little bit. Manoah really doesn't look all that different to me compared to last season, and he garnered serious Cy Young consideration last season with a very similar frame to the one he's featuring at the moment.

 

If you want to think that his physique is the primary reason why he suddenly can't locate his pitches and his stuff has dropped across the board then you can go ahead and do so.

 

First. This isn't immediate. His weight has been discussed right from when he was drafted. This isn't a new discussion. Having a lot of excess weight is never a very good idea. He was having excellent results so it was generally ignored. Doesn't mean his conditioning wasn't something to keep an eye on. Who knows what he'd be capable of if he were to have an "athletic" frame.

 

Second. There are plenty of reasons why his command is off. Could be mental, could be mechanical, could be physical...could be all of it.

 

My point is, being in good physical condition (for an athlete especially) is ALWAYS a good idea. Taking the excess weight component off the table reduces the number of things to troubleshoot.

[Krylian]

It might be better to see whether his teammates have his back on social media (and maybe they do, or some do). He likes to run his mouth a lot - it will be interesting if his teammates remain fully supportive of his actions or not. I for one hope that:

 

a) he matures and stops acting like the world is against him; and

he starts pitching better.

 

Ya. Big mouths really need to back it up or they're gonna get destroyed. Manoah wants to play in the Stroman sandbox, so he needs to be able to handle the bad when it comes, cause generally speaking they bring it on themselves.

[max silver]

First. This isn't immediate. His weight has been discussed right from when he was drafted. This isn't a new discussion. Having a lot of excess weight is never a very good idea. He was having excellent results so it was generally ignored. Doesn't mean his conditioning wasn't something to keep an eye on. Who knows what he'd be capable of if he were to have an "athletic" frame.

 

Second. There are plenty of reasons why his command is off. Could be mental, could be mechanical, could be physical...could be all of it.

 

My point is, being in good physical condition (for an athlete especially) is ALWAYS a good idea. Taking the excess weight component off the table reduces the number of things to troubleshoot.

 

If you go back and check out photos of Manoah from his draft year you can tell he's in far better condition than he used to be.

[Krylian]

If you go back and check out photos of Manoah from his draft year you can tell he's in far better condition than he used to be.

 

OK. If that's the case then great. There is more room for improvement. I think we can all agree on that. It can only help.

[Governator]

If you go back and check out photos of Manoah from his draft year you can tell he's in far better condition than he used to be.

 

 

He's always huffed and puffed on the mound in the past but he knew full well there would be a pitch clock this season on him and it's rather obvious he looks gassed. Expected to throw 95+ every 15 seconds is a lot harder when you're carrying excess weight than ever before, that's just logic.

[L54]

Yeah that’s what I was texting my son yesterday, as we both like him. Like be Conor McGregor when you’re on top of the division, but when you’re not, it’s just being a clown. Hopefully he gets a little humble and keeps his head down if he struggles. Then talk all sorts of s*** when you get back to the top

 

Nothing wrong with putting your head down and getting back to work and then talking s*** when you’re back

 

But if you suck stfu and blend in for a minute

[L54]

So far that guy on MLB Network looks right.

 

Haha ya he does

[L54]

Wow it certainly didn't take long for the knives to come out for Manoah. Dude explodes onto the scene and posts some of the all time best early career numbers as a Jay for 50+ starts, and as soon as he struggles for a handful of starts he's public enemy number 1. Too fat to pitch, too busy stuffing his face to train, fake tough guy who should just shut the f*** up, acts like a clown etc. I could see this level of derision if he pitched for the Red Sox or Yankees but it's a little surprising to see this level of hate for a guy who pitches for the Jays, appears to be a model teammate etc.

 

I’d like you to point out where anybody said he’s too fat to pitch or whatever else you’re babbling about

[max silver]

I’d like you to point out where anybody said he’s too fat to pitch or whatever else you’re babbling about

 

Did you even read any of the preceding comments?

 

My personal take, and I am not the author of the tweet but like that it summarizes what we can all see, is that Manoah is either hiding an injury of some sort or he's out of shape (he's always been big but looks a lot bigger this year) and with the pitch clock he's just gassed because he can't stand around rubbing the ball up behind the mound to catch his breath.

 

It's pretty crazy (sad) that we have 3 massive dudes who aren't really in shape at all (for professional athletes).

 

I know Berrios has an 8 ERA but his FIP and xFIP are better than Gausman presently has. If Berrios BABIP drops from .419 to a more normal for him .300 he's likely going to be fine. I think how he pitched against Tampa is how he is going to have to pitch moving forward. I'm not overly concerned about Bassitt as I think he had a bit of a learning curve on calling his own pitches with pitchcom and a pitch clock and it's worked out. Kikuchi has looked good this season and I think as long as he keeps it simple he should be fine as a backend arm.

 

I think Manoah needs a phantom IL stint where he can just rest his arm and do some cardio and diet work with a rehab assignment.

 

Ya. He looks bigger than ever. Maybe he got a little too comfortable after last season.

I hope he really commits this off-season to getting into better shape. He's way too young to be late stage CC Sabathia.

 

Remember the guy on MLB network praising Manoah but saying hey bro you could probably shed a few… and Manoah lost his s***

Good times

 

Manoah is cooler than Stroman but if he continues to suck and walk around with this alpha swagger BS it’s going to get old fast

 

 

Eating routine.

 

So far that guy on MLB Network looks right.

[Sorrow]

Wow it certainly didn't take long for the knives to come out for Manoah. Dude explodes onto the scene and posts some of the all time best early career numbers as a Jay for 50+ starts, and as soon as he struggles for a handful of starts he's public enemy number 1. Too fat to pitch, too busy stuffing his face to train, fake tough guy who should just shut the f*** up, acts like a clown etc. I could see this level of derision if he pitched for the Red Sox or Yankees but it's a little surprising to see this level of hate for a guy who pitches for the Jays, appears to be a model teammate etc.

 

I don't think he's too fat to pitch but he looks bigger this season, there's a chance he isn't and it's just camera and since I'm not seeing him in person it's hard to say. From what I've seen of his workout it's a lot of powerlifting and strongman compound lifts but I'm not sure how much stretching or cardio he's doing. What I do see is his velocity is down and he seems to be labouring with the pitch clock. He was our slowest pitcher in 2022 at 20.7 (bases empty) and 25.2 (with runners on) so you're talking 5 seconds faster between pitches every pitch. I'm not a small person (6'2" 280 as of today) but when I was competing in strongman when my cardio wasn't as much of a priority I'd get tired quicker than when my cardio was a much larger priority and I wonder if that is what is happening.

 

He looks like he's having a hard time catching his breath at this point.

[max silver]

I don't think he's too fat to pitch but he looks bigger this season, there's a chance he isn't and it's just camera and since I'm not seeing him in person it's hard to say. From what I've seen of his workout it's a lot of powerlifting and strongman compound lifts but I'm not sure how much stretching or cardio he's doing. What I do see is his velocity is down and he seems to be labouring with the pitch clock. He was our slowest pitcher in 2022 at 20.7 (bases empty) and 25.2 (with runners on) so you're talking 5 seconds faster between pitches every pitch. I'm not a small person (6'2" 280 as of today) but when I was competing in strongman when my cardio wasn't as much of a priority I'd get tired quicker than when my cardio was a much larger priority and I wonder if that is what is happening.

 

He looks like he's having a hard time catching his breath at this point.

 

Those are perfectly fair points, but I don't buy that this is the primary reason his stuff and command are both faltering this season. In the games where his velocity and stuff are down it's apparent right from the first pitch before a lack of conditioning/pitch clock would start to factor in. It would be an interesting exercise to go back and watch video of him between pitches last season to see if he was also out of breath a good chunk of the time there as well.

[L54]

Did you even read any of the preceding comments?

 

Exactly zero of those say he’s too fat to pitch. It’s okay to be critical of players on the team you cheer for

 

Manoah was great last year with no pitch clock

 

He has sucked this year with a pitch clock

 

Read the room. The hypothesis is easy to form.

[max silver]

Exactly zero of those say he’s too fat to pitch. It’s okay to be critical of players on the team you cheer for

 

When I read comments about a player's eating habits, comparing him to late stage CC Sabathia, stating that he needs an IL trip to diet and do cardio I can't help but think they are saying that this player is too fat to pitch effectively. I honestly don't know how you could think anything else.

 

Manoah was great last year with no pitch clock

 

He has sucked this year with a pitch clock

 

Read the room. The hypothesis is easy to form.

 

 

 

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

[Krylian]

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

 

But fat does equal not putting yourself in the best position to succeed as a pro athlete.

[L54]

When I read comments about a player's eating habits, comparing him to late stage CC Sabathia, stating that he needs an IL trip to diet and do cardio I can't help but think they are saying that this player is too fat to pitch effectively. I honestly don't know how you could think anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

 

Lol

[Brownie19]

There's also just a chance that his body is struggling with the increased workload he put it through last year. I still remember like 5-10 years ago when there was so much talk/studies about the risks of increasing your workload by more than 50 innings from one year to the next, with lots of examples of pitchers who just sucked the year after a large workload increase (I believe it was Strasberg who got shut down in the playoffs). You don't hear a lot of people talk about this anymore - which could be because the studies were all bogus, or the reality that SPers are throwing fewer and fewer innings per year and thus we simply don't see many big workload increases anymore - but when you add in the playoffs last year, Manoah added about 100 innings.

[Carlos Danger]

If you go back and check out photos of Manoah from his draft year you can tell he's in far better condition than he used to be.

 

There is gym weight and body shape and then cardio and like an O-Course muscle type... I think both are possible that Manoah looks fitter but might not have the high reps type muscle and cardio.. Either he is getting gassed or different body shape muscle tone has affected his mechanics..

 

I have zero idea what is up.. I am just saying both sides of the argument can be right..

[BCZ]

Based on?

 

Based on suckidge