General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[L54]

What is the goal with a runner on third and less than two outs?

[Steeljays]

Intentional BB then ground into DP😀

[Stangstag]

What is the goal with a runner on third and less than two outs?

 

Homruns baby

[G-Snarls]

What is the goal with a runner on third and less than two outs?

 

Drive the ball to the outfield

 

Resulting in a base hit or sac fly

 

Either way a run scores

 

Edit: sorry for the serious answer LOL

[Jays24]

Homruns baby

 

False, don't even wait at 3rd... ignore the 3B coach and get gunned out at home instead

[max silver]

What is the goal with a runner on third and less than two outs?

 

Obviously the goal is to plate the run. What Merrifield seems to be espousing (I haven't listened to the interview, only read through what Carlos presented) was a small ball approach where an out is traded for the run scoring. It would appear as though the team preferred to set up the possibility of scoring more than a single run by not wanting players to chase pitchers pitches in the hopes of slapping a run home.

Edited December 18, 2023 by max silver

[Jays24]

You seemed to have purposely left out the quote where Bo directly stated the gameplanning was fine. He eventually stated that the Twins simply played better than the Blue Jays in a short series.

 

 

 

There's nothing saying the team needs some sort of massive organization overhaul anywhere in his quotes, simply that everyone needs to reflect and determine how to improve moving forward. The team obviously thinks there was something amiss with the offensive strategy as the hitting strategist was reassigned to the minor leagues so hopefully Mattingly has success in the role.

 

Yup, you focus on that part while I focused on the other part. Explains how we talk on here lol

 

And the entire baseball world was ok with our "game planning" of removing Berrios after the 3rd inning right... nothing to change there lol.

[deanmike]

I don't want the Jays to sign either of these players, but I would rather Chapman back than sign Bellinger. That's how much I don't want the Jays to be the team that ends up overpaying Bellinger.

[max silver]

Yup, you focus on that part while I focused on the other part. Explains how we talk on here lol

 

And the entire baseball world was ok with our "game planning" of removing Berrios after the 3rd inning right... nothing to change there lol.

 

We are discussing the team's offensive woes presently. The early hook on Berrios is a completely separate issue, try to stay on topic.

[G-Snarls]

[Terminator]

Yup, you focus on that part while I focused on the other part. Explains how we talk on here lol

 

And the entire baseball world was ok with our "game planning" of removing Berrios after the 3rd inning right... nothing to change there lol.

 

Wow!

[polar bear]

If they give Chapman $125 I’m going to be anemic after I finish vomiting.

 

Absolute max should be 4 years, 80M. Walk if it gets past that.

 

Even $80 mil.4 years, Is too much for me to stomach.

[polar bear]

So Whit's approach seemed to be expanding the strike zone and hacking away while hoping the contact scored the runner while potentially producing an out (maybe even greatly increasing the likelihood of this happening). The team's approach was to wait for a pitch you can hit hard, and if you didn't receive it take your walk passing the baton to the next guy up. Are you siding with Whit here? It seems to me that the approach the team was prescribing would lead to far more opportunities to plate runs vs what Whit wanted to do.

Teams approach really worked well.

[max silver]

Teams approach really worked well.

 

Is that because it was a bad offensive approach to start with or did the players fail to execute a sound plan effectively? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there wasn't something amiss with the team's offense this season, but I'm pushing back against the idea that the issue was that not enough players were expanding the strike zone and swinging at pitches out of the strike zone.

 

The team was well above average on the road but really bad at home. The clutch numbers were fantastic on the road but awful at home. Did they employ a different road strategy or did the players simply not perform at home?

[polar bear]

Is that because it was a bad offensive approach to start with or did the players fail to execute a sound plan effectively? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there wasn't something amiss with the team's offense this season, but I'm pushing back against the idea that the issue was that not enough players were expanding the strike zone and swinging at pitches out of the strike zone.

 

The team was well above average on the road but really bad at home. The clutch numbers were fantastic on the road but awful at home. Did they employ a different road strategy or did the players simply not perform at home?

 

Was referring to the amount of runners stranded on third Max,try and stay on topic.

[max silver]

Was referring to the amount of runners stranded on third Max,try and stay on topic.

 

In my defense most of my post was perfectly on topic.

[Frenchsoup]

Big year for Biggio incoming...

[Laika]

Big year for Biggio incoming...

 

oh yeah?

[Carlos Danger]

Is that because it was a bad offensive approach to start with or did the players fail to execute a sound plan effectively? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there wasn't something amiss with the team's offense this season, but I'm pushing back against the idea that the issue was that not enough players were expanding the strike zone and swinging at pitches out of the strike zone.

 

The team was well above average on the road but really bad at home. The clutch numbers were fantastic on the road but awful at home. Did they employ a different road strategy or did the players simply not perform at home?

 

No one, including Whit was saying to expand the strike zone and swing at pitches out side the strike zone. That is NOT what anyone was talking about.

 

1. The conversation was specifically regarding RISP and runner on 3rd less than 2 out type situations.

2. Pitchers always try to pitch you tougher in that situation.

3. You can be looking for your pitch, not get it and have a K called on you vs a shorten up your swing and make contact approach.

 

Almost every hitter performed below expectations. Doesn't that tell you something is going on and not just the individual?

 

Why is it when Pete Walker does a great job with pitchers it is the pitching coach and org philosophy to have a guy use his cutter more etc, etc.. Also, if a pitching staff sucks, the pitching staff gets blamed.

 

However, if the hitting staff/philosophy sucks or is not a right fit for players that we have, then it is on the hitters and coaching /philosophy has nothing to do with it...??

[max silver]

oh yeah?

 

A 1.5 FWAR season would be his best since 2019 so the standards don't need to be set too high.

[max silver]

No one, including Whit was saying to expand the strike zone and swing at pitches out side the strike zone. That is NOT what anyone was talking about.

 

1. The conversation was specifically regarding RISP and runner on 3rd less than 2 out type situations.

2. Pitchers always try to pitch you tougher in that situation.

3. You can be looking for your pitch, not get it and have a K called on you vs a shorten up your swing and make contact approach.

 

Almost every hitter performed below expectations. Doesn't that tell you something is going on and not just the individual?

 

Why is it when Pete Walker does a great job with pitchers it is the pitching coach and org philosophy to have a guy use his cutter more etc, etc.. Also, if a pitching staff sucks, the pitching staff gets blamed.

 

However, if the hitting staff/philosophy sucks or is not a right fit for players that we have, then it is on the hitters and coaching /philosophy has nothing to do with it...??

 

This does nothing whatsoever to outline that the team had a bad strategy as a whole with runners in scoring position. Your original quote says Whit wanted to just swing at whatever pitch came his way, put it in play and hope for the best. You stated that the team preferred a hitter to be more selective and hunt for a specific pitch. It would stand to reason that the team wouldn't want a player to completely ignore a sound two strike approach and just watch pitches down the heart of the plate for strike 3, and outside of Chapman at times I'm not so sure this was a massive issue for the team. The team was middle of the pack in strikeout rate with runners in scoring position (21.9%) compared to all situations (20.9%) so this doesn't seem like it was the major factor holding them back.

[Brownie19]

Every coach, ever: wait for pitches you can hit and put good swings on them.

 

Whit Merrifield: ARE YOU STUPID, THERE IS A MAN ON THIRD BASE!!! SWING!!! SWING AT EVERYTHING!!!!

 

You'd almost think that Whit was Vlad's own personal hitting coach this past season.

[Terminator]

Big year for Biggio incoming...

 

[Frenchsoup]

Shapiro you going to make a move?

[Jays24]

Shapiro you going to make a move?

 

Shapiro is looking at more construction projects. This is solely on Atkins lol.

[Brownie19]

I haven't had a chance to write this out with work and concentrating on Ohtani etc. However, Whit Merrifield was on MLB a few weeks ago.

 

To summarize: Whit was asked what is the part of the game he takes pride in the most or that is most important to him that he is recognized for. SBs, his high average back when he hit .300 etc, etc. Whit replied that the part of his game that is most important to him is hitting with RISP or a man on 3rd less than 2 out etc.

 

This is when he threw some shade at the Blue Jays IMO and kind of gave me some insight into the hitting coaches, info that is shared etc. All the things we heard tidbits of during the season.

 

Whit stated that when he is at the plate with a runner on 3rd less than 2 outs, he is looking to take whichever pitch he gets and hit it somewhere to get the run in. Basically, that he has been good at adapting and making hard contact with the ball. Obviously in situation with RISP the pitcher will always pitch you tougher.

 

Whit's approach was in conflict with the team approach which was to wait your pitch, if you don't get your pitch and you can walk, then move it down the line for the next guy to bring the runner/s in.

 

However, guys were not getting their pitch and they weren't able to take a walk and they were stranding too many RISP.

 

Whit's insight definitely tracks with what I believe I saw last season with the Blue Jays in many cases. It also goes to a "Team approach or mindset".

 

Whit's wRC+ with RISP

 

2023 - 115

2022 - 90

2021 - 85

 

Looks like Whit should listen to the coaches more, and talk less?

 

Joking aside, Whit has been better with RISP over his career (112 wRC+) from a career 101 wRC+ hitter - he was just really s***** in 2021 and 2022. The reality is NOBODY should draw any conclusions from this statement from Whit. Hitting is so individual that I remain convinced there are no 'universal team philosophies'. That is f***ing stupid. You don't tell Bo and Danny Jansen to hit the same way. Even if the general philosophy was to "wait for your pitch" with RISP (or otherwise), it seems highly unlikely that all players were forced to comply with this. Was Whit punished for swinging at "whichever pitch he got to try and hit it somewhere"? Seems unlikely. It also seems unlikely the team would preach some team philosophy without having the data and information to support this approach. It isn't 1987. Even if the team was trying to suggest some minor tweaks to the approach by some players - they'd probably have to show them the information that supports the recommendation to get any type of buy in.

 

Finally - the team was SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 2nd half with RISP. Did this magical team philosophy that fans are referencing change? Or did players finally buy into it and start executing it better? Or you know, was all that talk about the impact of a hitting coach and this team philosophy all just ********? This feels like something Steve Simmons would write a fluff piece about. Let's do better.

[Frenchsoup]

Shapiro is looking at more construction projects. This is solely on Atkins lol.

 

He hired his boy....

[Carlos Danger]

Whit's wRC+ with RISP

 

2023 - 115

2022 - 90

2021 - 85

 

Looks like Whit should listen to the coaches more, and talk less?

 

Joking aside, Whit has been better with RISP over his career (112 wRC+) from a career 101 wRC+ hitter - he was just really s***** in 2021 and 2022. The reality is NOBODY should draw any conclusions from this statement from Whit. Hitting is so individual that I remain convinced there are no 'universal team philosophies'. That is f***ing stupid. You don't tell Bo and Danny Jansen to hit the same way. Even if the general philosophy was to "wait for your pitch" with RISP (or otherwise), it seems highly unlikely that all players were forced to comply with this. Was Whit punished for swinging at "whichever pitch he got to try and hit it somewhere"? Seems unlikely. It also seems unlikely the team would preach some team philosophy without having the data and information to support this approach. It isn't 1987. Even if the team was trying to suggest some minor tweaks to the approach by some players - they'd probably have to show them the information that supports the recommendation to get any type of buy in.

 

Finally - the team was SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 2nd half with RISP. Did this magical team philosophy that fans are referencing change? Or did players finally buy into it and start executing it better? Or you know, was all that talk about the impact of a hitting coach and this team philosophy all just ********? This feels like something Steve Simmons would write a fluff piece about. Let's do better.

 

Yea, the 1987 Blue Jays won 96 games and came 2nd in the division when it was just the East and the West and no Central division. No Analytics dept or wRC + back then, they seemed to manage.

[Olerud363]

Yea, the 1987 Blue Jays won 96 games and came 2nd in the division when it was just the East and the West and no Central division. No Analytics dept or wRC + back then, they seemed to manage.

 

The 1987 Tigers won 98 games. They were first in wRC+. They drew a lot of walks. They likely used early forms of Analytics including reading the 1987 Bill James Baseball Abstract. They scored 50 more runs than the Blue Jays. They won the division. The Blue Jays did not.

[Carlos Danger]

The 1987 Tigers won 98 games. They were first in wRC+. They drew a lot of walks. They likely used early forms of Analytics including reading the 1987 Bill James Baseball Abstract. They scored 50 more runs than the Blue Jays. They won the division. The Blue Jays did not.

 

Fnnn epic collapse/choke in the last week, Doyle Alexander getting us, Henke blowing saves, our platoon 3b guys s***ing the bed at big ABs... Still haunted by it to this day.. LOL