General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Stangstag]

So Whit's approach seemed to be expanding the strike zone and hacking away while hoping the contact scored the runner while potentially producing an out (maybe even greatly increasing the likelihood of this happening). The team's approach was to wait for a pitch you can hit hard, and if you didn't receive it take your walk passing the baton to the next guy up. Are you siding with Whit here? It seems to me that the approach the team was prescribing would lead to far more opportunities to plate runs vs what Whit wanted to do.

 

Yeah waiting for your pitch or else taking a walk is a sound approach. There were other issues leading to the struggles our lineup had.

[DonJays]

So Whit's approach seemed to be expanding the strike zone and hacking away while hoping the contact scored the runner while potentially producing an out (maybe even greatly increasing the likelihood of this happening). The team's approach was to wait for a pitch you can hit hard, and if you didn't receive it take your walk passing the baton to the next guy up. Are you siding with Whit here? It seems to me that the approach the team was prescribing would lead to far more opportunities to plate runs vs what Whit wanted to do.

Yes, Whit comes across as a moron here. Kind of like all the fans that blame the hitting coaches for our lack of offence/ failures with RISP.

[Carlos Danger]

So Whit's approach seemed to be expanding the strike zone and hacking away while hoping the contact scored the runner while potentially producing an out (maybe even greatly increasing the likelihood of this happening). The team's approach was to wait for a pitch you can hit hard, and if you didn't receive it take your walk passing the baton to the next guy up. Are you siding with Whit here? It seems to me that the approach the team was prescribing would lead to far more opportunities to plate runs vs what Whit wanted to do.

 

I think the proof is in the pudding... The team was poor in general with RISP and runner on 2b less than 2 out etc. Also, passing the baton only works if you can pass the baton- a walk.

 

I think too many guys were "waiting their pitch" and getting called out on strikes or just out and not walking.

 

Basically that is what Whit was talking about. They were NOT getting the run in due to "waiting" for their pitch.

[G-Snarls]

It's sad that this market needs to look for value contracts. Wish we could swing our cocks around like the big boys and not worry so much about overspending cause in 5 years a contract might not look good. I remember fondly when the Jays won the World Series and were the highest spenders in baseball. Good times.

 

AA/Beeston would only do value contracts. (Closest they came to "overpaying" was Russell Martin and he was worth every penny.)

 

The current front office has repeatedly shown a willingness to spend with the best of them for the right free agent. Sometimes the players agree to take the Jays money (Ryu, Springer, Gausman) and sometimes they don't (Ohtani, and surely some others we doon't even know about)

[MikeM3]

So Whit's approach seemed to be expanding the strike zone and hacking away while hoping the contact scored the runner while potentially producing an out (maybe even greatly increasing the likelihood of this happening). The team's approach was to wait for a pitch you can hit hard, and if you didn't receive it take your walk passing the baton to the next guy up. Are you siding with Whit here? It seems to me that the approach the team was prescribing would lead to far more opportunities to plate runs vs what Whit wanted to do.

 

I don't think Whit is the type or the age to make any changes. It's much safer to let him do what he wants. He has 15 years experience poking sliders off the plate

[John_Havok]

So Whit's approach seemed to be expanding the strike zone and hacking away while hoping the contact scored the runner while potentially producing an out (maybe even greatly increasing the likelihood of this happening). The team's approach was to wait for a pitch you can hit hard, and if you didn't receive it take your walk passing the baton to the next guy up. Are you siding with Whit here? It seems to me that the approach the team was prescribing would lead to far more opportunities to plate runs vs what Whit wanted to do.

 

It’s probably some nuance that’s missing from the explanation, you know how people listen to one thing but interpret it slightly different.

 

To me it sounds like Whit was going to the plate with a 2 strike approach, whereas the Jays preached waiting until 2 strikes for that approach. That doesn’t seem overly egregious, but if that’s the mindset Whit has and it has been working (I didn’t look up any stats yet to see what his numbers actually are with RISP or “clutch” situations) then it would be foolish to mess with the mindset of its working.

 

However, if it clearly wasn’t working, the coach needs to be able to show the numbers, “I see what you mean Whit but, look at these numbers, that approach hasn’t actually been working for you overall, so if you try it this way, we think you’ll be more successful”

 

I’m not really a fan of a one-size-fits-all approach to hitting. There are general truths of course, but I certainly wouldn’t coach Espinal and Vlad Jr to try and do the same thing. same with Bichette, he’s just too different from everyone else in what works for him.

[max silver]

I think the proof is in the pudding... The team was poor in general with RISP and runner on 2b less than 2 out etc. Also, passing the baton only works if you can pass the baton- a walk.

 

I think too many guys were "waiting their pitch" and getting called out on strikes or just out and not walking.

 

Basically that is what Whit was talking about. They were NOT getting the run in due to "waiting" for their pitch.

 

I simply think if what you have described is true that the team's approach would be far more sensible than hacking away at whatever came your way. That perfectly describes much of what ailed Vlad the last few seasons as he was expanding the strike zone and making soft contact on pitches that he couldn't do damage with instead of simply taking the walks that were presented to him. I think it would be a terrible team approach to want for the players to do the same kind of thing on a regular basis.

 

The team wouldn't have wanted players to watch pitches down the middle for strike 3, that's an individual pitch recognition issue and not some sort of team mandated approach.

[Terminator]

 

The playoffs will be easy to make.

[max silver]

I don't think Whit is the type or the age to make any changes. It's much safer to let him do what he wants. He has 15 years experience poking sliders off the plate

 

For a dude that just produced a 1.5 WAR season he sure seems to be throwing a lot of shade in the direction of the team/front office recently.

[Carlos Danger]

For a dude that just produced a 1.5 WAR season he sure seems to be throwing a lot of shade in the direction of the team/front office recently.

 

There were also a few months where he solely kept us in WC spot with his offense.

[MikeM3]

For a dude that just produced a 1.5 WAR season he sure seems to be throwing a lot of shade in the direction of the team/front office recently.

 

Like every single player that's left us?

[max silver]

Like every single player that's left us?

 

I don't recall anyone else who has left recently who had anything bad to say on the way out the door.

[Jays24]

Like every single player that's left us?

 

Bo has already started throwing shade and we'll see how that ends up lol.

[max silver]

There were also a few months where he solely kept us in WC spot with his offense.

 

Which months would those be exactly? Whit had a tremendous month of July (171 wRC+) which was largely driven by an unsustainable home run rate. It seems to have slipped under the radar somewhat but he was absolutely awful the last two months of the season. Over his last 49 games/206 plate appearances he really struggled to a 46 wRC+. This is second worst in MLB among qualified players. But this guy wants to talk s*** on his way out the door and act like he was some sort of offensive hero? f*** that noise.

[Stangstag]

 

The playoffs will be easy to make.

 

Yeah that's not how this works my dude

[Terminator]

Yeah that's not how this works my dude

 

Ok fine I'll fix it.

 

 

Is that better?

[Jays24]

Which months would those be exactly? Whit had a tremendous month of July (171 wRC+) which was largely driven by an unsustainable home run rate. It seems to have slipped under the radar somewhat but he was absolutely awful the last two months of the season. Over his last 49 games/206 plate appearances he really struggled to a 46 wRC+. This is second worst in MLB among qualified players. But this guy wants to talk s*** on his way out the door and act like he was some sort of offensive hero? f*** that noise.

 

Maybe a team/management that has accomplished absolutely nothing should be open to criticism/discussion? You realize that you only get better in life if your hear the hard things and not only surrounded by "yes men" right.

 

Who would know better on what's happening internally than the players themselves. Bo also made a comment about things needing to be changed so guess it should be f*** him too right? Anything to avoid looking at our precious guys in charge lol.

[RustyTrombone]

I feel like this forum way overstates the impact that a hitting coach has on mid-prime big-leaguers. Matt Chapman is a 30-year old man with a ton of big league success. He's not out there trying to shoot flares into RF because Don Mattingly is in his hear. Outside of 2022 and the short 2020, his pull rate his been in a 2% range four of the last 6 years.

 

I didnt say anything about the coaches in that post. Chapman hitting to RF was a conscious decision he made him self, if you read the quotes from Chapman himself from like april and may you will see that. And your numbers are misleading lol his pulled flyball percentage was less than 50% of what it was the previous season and by far a career low AND his pulled flyball hard hit percentage was down from 2022 as well. This was most definitely a result of his all fields approach and it completely killed his pull power all year. I doubt this came from the Jays coaches.

 

[Laika]

I haven't had a chance to write this out with work and concentrating on Ohtani etc. However, Whit Merrifield was on MLB a few weeks ago.

 

To summarize: Whit was asked what is the part of the game he takes pride in the most or that is most important to him that he is recognized for. SBs, his high average back when he hit .300 etc, etc. Whit replied that the part of his game that is most important to him is hitting with RISP or a man on 3rd less than 2 out etc.

 

This is when he threw some shade at the Blue Jays IMO and kind of gave me some insight into the hitting coaches, info that is shared etc. All the things we heard tidbits of during the season.

 

Whit stated that when he is at the plate with a runner on 3rd less than 2 outs, he is looking to take whichever pitch he gets and hit it somewhere to get the run in. Basically, that he has been good at adapting and making hard contact with the ball. Obviously in situation with RISP the pitcher will always pitch you tougher.

 

Whit's approach was in conflict with the team approach which was to wait your pitch, if you don't get your pitch and you can walk, then move it down the line for the next guy to bring the runner/s in.

 

However, guys were not getting their pitch and they weren't able to take a walk and they were stranding too many RISP.

 

Whit's insight definitely tracks with what I believe I saw last season with the Blue Jays in many cases. It also goes to a "Team approach or mindset".

 

This is gibberish

 

Toronto was middle of the pack in BB% and Swing%

 

Whit is just applying a narrative after the fact, and it is drenched in his personal bias. Classic human problem.

 

Most of the Blue Jays who had rough years had specific issues. I don't really think many of them had a problem with being too patient. Maybe Belt would be too passive at times. Biggio of course has had issues with that.

 

But guys like Springer and Varsho and Vlad.... no.

[max silver]

Maybe a team/management that has accomplished absolutely nothing should be open to criticism/discussion? You realize that you only get better in life if your hear the hard things and not only surrounded by "yes men" right.

 

Who would know better on what's happening internally than the players themselves. Bo also made a comment about things needing to be changed so guess it should be f*** him too right? Anything to avoid looking at our precious guys in charge lol.

 

Criticism is fine when it's constructive and warranted. This is seemingly a below average veteran player espousing the benefits expanding the zone and swinging at pitches out of the strike zone as if it's a sound offensive approach. Do you agree with him or something?

 

What does Bo have to do with Whit Merrifield running his mouth on the way out the door? Kindly provide an actual quote from Bo instead of "Bo also made a comment".

[Laika]

Every coach, ever: wait for pitches you can hit and put good swings on them.

 

Whit Merrifield: ARE YOU STUPID, THERE IS A MAN ON THIRD BASE!!! SWING!!! SWING AT EVERYTHING!!!!

[Jays24]

Criticism is fine when it's constructive and warranted. This is seemingly a below average veteran player espousing the benefits expanding the zone and swinging at pitches out of the strike zone as if it's a sound offensive approach. Do you agree with him or something?

 

What does Bo have to do with Whit Merrifield running his mouth on the way out the door? Kindly provide an actual quote from Bo instead of "Bo also made a comment".

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/bichette-says-reflection-needed-organization-wide-after-blue-jays-elimination/

 

Not saying Bo "blasted" the team but simply said it's time to rethink what's being done currently. I swear it feels like some of the people totally wiped it out from their minds how the majority of the fanbase felt after we got swept in the WC round yet again. It wasn't a pretty few weeks and a lot of people were calling for some heads to roll...

[Jays24]

Every coach, ever: wait for pitches you can hit and put good swings on them.

 

Whit Merrifield: ARE YOU STUPID, THERE IS A MAN ON THIRD BASE!!! SWING!!! SWING AT EVERYTHING!!!!

 

Whatever they were telling our hitters this past season should probably be reversed. To get that many career low years at the same time from so many hitters probably tells you it could be a strategy problem. Don't want to take the blame from the players themselves for sucking entirely but there could be a bigger possibility here.

[Laika]

Whatever they were telling our hitters this past season should probably be reversed. To get that many career low years at the same time from so many hitters probably tells you it could be a strategy problem. Don't want to take the blame from the players themselves for sucking entirely but there could be a bigger possibility here.

 

They will make the appropriate tweaks but it's mostly on the players

[JaysAllMighty]

[metafour]

Whatever they were telling our hitters this past season should probably be reversed. To get that many career low years at the same time from so many hitters probably tells you it could be a strategy problem. Don't want to take the blame from the players themselves for sucking entirely but there could be a bigger possibility here.

 

Whit Merrifield had a better offensive season with the Jays this past season than he did in either of his two previous seasons.

 

The guy has also been a below-average hitter for three straight seasons now.

 

So no part of his "criticism" seems rooted in reality, because not only did this allegedly flawed Jays' approach seem to actually improve his offensive output, but even if it didn't - the guy simply isn't a productive enough hitter to be doling out "expert advice".

 

Where does constantly running into absurd outs at third base factor into Whit Merrifield's run-creation philosophy? Did he comment on that at all? Because it happened quite a few times last season.

[Jays24]

Whit Merrifield had a better offensive season with the Jays this past season than he did in either of his two previous seasons.

 

The guy has also been a below-average hitter for three straight seasons now.

 

So no part of his "criticism" seems rooted in reality, because not only did this allegedly flawed Jays' approach seem to actually improve his offensive output, but even if it didn't - the guy simply isn't a productive enough hitter to be doling out "expert advice".

 

Where does constantly running into absurd outs at third base factor into Whit Merrifield's run-creation philosophy? Did he comment on that at all? Because it happened quite a few times last season.

 

Hey I'm not saying this is completely on the front office. The level of idiocy that we all see on the bases is mostly on the players. That reflects on their poor IQ/instricts and probably spills into other aspects of the game too like hitting approach.

 

Just meant that everyone should be looking into readjusting their approach top to bottom since we haven't accomplished anything.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Ok fine I'll fix it.

 

 

Is that better?

 

Add Manoah (assuming the Brewers like him and think he'll bounce back) and then have the brewers eat some of the Yelich deal, and I don't think it's too crazy.

 

Probably will never happen but the value's fair in my opinion.

[deanmike]

Ok fine I'll fix it.

 

 

Is that better?

 

I would do Adames+Yelich (and Brewers eat 40M of the 130M guaranteed still owed to Yelich) for Espinal and Otto Lopez.

[max silver]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/bichette-says-reflection-needed-organization-wide-after-blue-jays-elimination/

 

Not saying Bo "blasted" the team but simply said it's time to rethink what's being done currently. I swear it feels like some of the people totally wiped it out from their minds how the majority of the fanbase felt after we got swept in the WC round yet again. It wasn't a pretty few weeks and a lot of people were calling for some heads to roll...

 

You seemed to have purposely left out the quote where Bo directly stated the gameplanning was fine. He eventually stated that the Twins simply played better than the Blue Jays in a short series.

 

"I didn't think it was poor execution or game planning on our part," he later continued. "Obviously, you can always be better. But they have great pitching over there and they were just better than us."

 

There's nothing saying the team needs some sort of massive organization overhaul anywhere in his quotes, simply that everyone needs to reflect and determine how to improve moving forward. The team obviously thinks there was something amiss with the offensive strategy as the hitting strategist was reassigned to the minor leagues so hopefully Mattingly has success in the role.

Edited December 18, 2023 by max silver