General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Frenchsoup]

Need to balance the order a bit and those guys aren't to to expensive. Although i could see Votto getting a nice 1 year deal. Belt was really really f***ing solid for us last year and I want him back if Votto's to expensive...Rowdys a sexy wildcard and would love to watch him.

[Jays24]

French Soup needs to consolidate his posts. Man's taking over every thread lol

[Marew]

Need to balance the order a bit and those guys aren't to to expensive. Although i could see Votto getting a nice 1 year deal. Belt was really really f***ing solid for us last year and I want him back if Votto's to expensive...Rowdys a sexy wildcard and would love to watch him.

 

Agree 100%. I wish you were the only poster here. Usually just skip over all other posts.

[Spanky99]

Need to balance the order a bit and those guys aren't to to expensive. Although i could see Votto getting a nice 1 year deal. Belt was really really f***ing solid for us last year and I want him back if Votto's to expensive...Rowdys a sexy wildcard and would love to watch him.

 

Dude?

[Frenchsoup]

what Spankster?

[Spanky99]

what Spankster?

 

Belt maybe, aim higher. If the Jays land Ohtani, maybe as depth.

 

Belt gets much more than either guy.

 

Personally I'd want JDM or Hoskins at DH.

 

Brantley LF/DH and Ohtani or Yamamoto.

 

3B In-house or some defensive stiff to platoon.

[Terminator]

Lmfao Rafael Lantigua, the guy they chose to snub off the 40-man in September in favour of Mason f***ing McShit. Nice loss there Atkins, hope you enjoyed McShit's late game defense at SS.

 

Don't fret, Dean! We got him back on a minor league deal!

 

[Sorrow]

I had dinner last night with my friend who has been letting me know about call ups and trades for a few seasons, I've discovered how he knows so much information for someone who doesn't work in baseball and I'm not going to state anything that could dox him but it's cool.

 

We chatted life in general but always end up coming back to baseball and here's the general run down of what he has passed along to me, as always take with a bit of a grain of salt.

 

Last winter the Jays tried to trade Jansen first because he had the most interest of their catchers, the Cardinals and Braves were the two teams that were into him before the Braves went for Sean Murphy and the Cards signed Contreras. The Jays did ask for Nootbaar and the cards countered with Helsely, he doesn't know what the Braves offered or if it got far enough along in talks to actually specify names. This was the best offer the team got for Jano so they tried to move Kirk and had no good or fair offers. Teams were concerned about his conditioning and were concerned about how dramatically the offence dropped off in the second half. When they pivoted to Moreno they had very little interest. Teams were concerned about the dramatic drop off in power from the broken thumb and had concerns about the defence. The original deal the Diamondbacks approached the Jays with was Jake McCarthy for Moreno straight up, the talks fell apart when the Jays countered with either Varsho or Thomas. The only way they would move Varsho was getting another MLB OF back in Gurriel so this was the end trade. Toronto was hoping to have Gurriel play last season out in LF/DH. The Jays wanted to end up with an OF of Gurriel, a CF, Springer and Grossman or another bat that could cover the corners and DH but this fell apart when Gurriel needed to be included in the Varsho trade. Team is still happy with the trade and their own internal defensive metrics agree with that we see on FanGraphs and Baseball Prospectus that Moreno had a poor defensive season.

 

Alek Manoah and the Jays are fine, Manaoh was suffering a shoulder injury early in the off season last year and it took him a while to get underway and he arrived at Spring Training out of shape and not game ready and the Jays were pissed as he didn't disclose the injury. The Jays are open to moving Manoah but they want fair return.

 

Bo Bichette is available for trade but the asking price is quite high, two MLB ready players one of who can play SS and a prospect. They Jays have approached Bichette twice about long term deals and he wants to try free agency.

 

Vlad Guerrero has asked for an extension and the Jays have not come to the table. He thinks the Jays would move Vlad tomorrow if a trade that made sense based on his potential came up. The FO doesn't know what to expect year to year with him from a fitness or performance standpoint.

 

 

The Jays want to sign Jansen to an extension but want to see if he can stay healthy.

The FO no longer sees Orelvis Martinez or Barger as SS/3B but as a 2B and RF respectively.

 

FO is really high on Alan Roden - think he makes it up in 2024.

 

The Jays are in on Ohtani and they have legitimate interest in Yamamoto, they would love to sign both. The rumblings of an Ohtani payroll and a non-Ohtani payroll are accurate. His understanding is the team has 40M-50M to work, if they sign Ohtani that drops but not dramatically. This lets them trade pitching for bats.

 

The front office is not sold on Bellinger, they liked the bounce back season but have concerns about the quality of the contact.

 

The FO wants one of Chapman or Candaleiro and has had extensive talks with both. Seems like all FA are waiting to see what happens with Ohtani to set the market. FO doesn't see any internal depth at 3B that is ready in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

FO expects a bounce back season offensively for the team. Too many voices speaking to the players so they're hoping that by having Mattingly and Martinez it helps focus it down.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Oh please sweet baby jesus let the Jays land Ohtani and Yamamoto.

[John_Havok]

I had dinner last night with my friend who has been letting me know about call ups and trades for a few seasons, I've discovered how he knows so much information for someone who doesn't work in baseball and I'm not going to state anything that could dox him but it's cool.

 

We chatted life in general but always end up coming back to baseball and here's the general run down of what he has passed along to me, as always take with a bit of a grain of salt.

 

Last winter the Jays tried to trade Jansen first because he had the most interest of their catchers, the Cardinals and Braves were the two teams that were into him before the Braves went for Sean Murphy and the Cards signed Contreras. The Jays did ask for Nootbaar and the cards countered with Helsely, he doesn't know what the Braves offered or if it got far enough along in talks to actually specify names. This was the best offer the team got for Jano so they tried to move Kirk and had no good or fair offers. Teams were concerned about his conditioning and were concerned about how dramatically the offence dropped off in the second half. When they pivoted to Moreno they had very little interest. Teams were concerned about the dramatic drop off in power from the broken thumb and had concerns about the defence. The original deal the Diamondbacks approached the Jays with was Jake McCarthy for Moreno straight up, the talks fell apart when the Jays countered with either Varsho or Thomas. The only way they would move Varsho was getting another MLB OF back in Gurriel so this was the end trade. Toronto was hoping to have Gurriel play last season out in LF/DH. The Jays wanted to end up with an OF of Gurriel, a CF, Springer and Grossman or another bat that could cover the corners and DH but this fell apart when Gurriel needed to be included in the Varsho trade. Team is still happy with the trade and their own internal defensive metrics agree with that we see on FanGraphs and Baseball Prospectus that Moreno had a poor defensive season.

 

Alek Manoah and the Jays are fine, Manaoh was suffering a shoulder injury early in the off season last year and it took him a while to get underway and he arrived at Spring Training out of shape and not game ready and the Jays were pissed as he didn't disclose the injury. The Jays are open to moving Manoah but they want fair return.

 

Bo Bichette is available for trade but the asking price is quite high, two MLB ready players one of who can play SS and a prospect. They Jays have approached Bichette twice about long term deals and he wants to try free agency.

 

Vlad Guerrero has asked for an extension and the Jays have not come to the table. He thinks the Jays would move Vlad tomorrow if a trade that made sense based on his potential came up. The FO doesn't know what to expect year to year with him from a fitness or performance standpoint.

 

 

The Jays want to sign Jansen to an extension but want to see if he can stay healthy.

The FO no longer sees Orelvis Martinez or Barger as SS/3B but as a 2B and RF respectively.

 

FO is really high on Alan Roden - think he makes it up in 2024.

 

The Jays are in on Ohtani and they have legitimate interest in Yamamoto, they would love to sign both. The rumblings of an Ohtani payroll and a non-Ohtani payroll are accurate. His understanding is the team has 40M-50M to work, if they sign Ohtani that drops but not dramatically. This lets them trade pitching for bats.

 

The front office is not sold on Bellinger, they liked the bounce back season but have concerns about the quality of the contact.

 

The FO wants one of Chapman or Candaleiro and has had extensive talks with both. Seems like all FA are waiting to see what happens with Ohtani to set the market. FO doesn't see any internal depth at 3B that is ready in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

FO expects a bounce back season offensively for the team. Too many voices speaking to the players so they're hoping that by having Mattingly and Martinez it helps focus it down.

 

All very interesting info.

 

Would love to sign both Ohtani and YY…that would free up a trade of Kikuchi to fill another area of need while keeping Manoah and Tiedeman as the next guys up when injury hits. Signing a #5 in this market to a 1 year deal would be easy as hell after that.

 

Weird to hear them moving on from both Barger and Orelvis as a possible 3B, but that would definitely explain their interest in bringing Chappy back or getting Candaleiro.

 

Roden needs HR power. I hope he develops it because it’s still not showing up in results yet.

 

Regarding the Bo and Vlad situation…yep. That’s just so typical Blue Jays. They one they want won’t sign, the one that wants to sign isn’t what they want.

 

Manoah situation makes far more sense now.

[Jimcanuck]

I had dinner last night with my friend who has been letting me know about call ups and trades for a few seasons, I've discovered how he knows so much information for someone who doesn't work in baseball and I'm not going to state anything that could dox him but it's cool.

 

We chatted life in general but always end up coming back to baseball and here's the general run down of what he has passed along to me, as always take with a bit of a grain of salt.

 

Last winter the Jays tried to trade Jansen first because he had the most interest of their catchers, the Cardinals and Braves were the two teams that were into him before the Braves went for Sean Murphy and the Cards signed Contreras. The Jays did ask for Nootbaar and the cards countered with Helsely, he doesn't know what the Braves offered or if it got far enough along in talks to actually specify names. This was the best offer the team got for Jano so they tried to move Kirk and had no good or fair offers. Teams were concerned about his conditioning and were concerned about how dramatically the offence dropped off in the second half. When they pivoted to Moreno they had very little interest. Teams were concerned about the dramatic drop off in power from the broken thumb and had concerns about the defence. The original deal the Diamondbacks approached the Jays with was Jake McCarthy for Moreno straight up, the talks fell apart when the Jays countered with either Varsho or Thomas. The only way they would move Varsho was getting another MLB OF back in Gurriel so this was the end trade. Toronto was hoping to have Gurriel play last season out in LF/DH. The Jays wanted to end up with an OF of Gurriel, a CF, Springer and Grossman or another bat that could cover the corners and DH but this fell apart when Gurriel needed to be included in the Varsho trade. Team is still happy with the trade and their own internal defensive metrics agree with that we see on FanGraphs and Baseball Prospectus that Moreno had a poor defensive season.

 

Alek Manoah and the Jays are fine, Manaoh was suffering a shoulder injury early in the off season last year and it took him a while to get underway and he arrived at Spring Training out of shape and not game ready and the Jays were pissed as he didn't disclose the injury. The Jays are open to moving Manoah but they want fair return.

 

Bo Bichette is available for trade but the asking price is quite high, two MLB ready players one of who can play SS and a prospect. They Jays have approached Bichette twice about long term deals and he wants to try free agency.

 

Vlad Guerrero has asked for an extension and the Jays have not come to the table. He thinks the Jays would move Vlad tomorrow if a trade that made sense based on his potential came up. The FO doesn't know what to expect year to year with him from a fitness or performance standpoint.

 

 

The Jays want to sign Jansen to an extension but want to see if he can stay healthy.

The FO no longer sees Orelvis Martinez or Barger as SS/3B but as a 2B and RF respectively.

 

FO is really high on Alan Roden - think he makes it up in 2024.

 

The Jays are in on Ohtani and they have legitimate interest in Yamamoto, they would love to sign both. The rumblings of an Ohtani payroll and a non-Ohtani payroll are accurate. His understanding is the team has 40M-50M to work, if they sign Ohtani that drops but not dramatically. This lets them trade pitching for bats.

 

The front office is not sold on Bellinger, they liked the bounce back season but have concerns about the quality of the contact.

 

The FO wants one of Chapman or Candaleiro and has had extensive talks with both. Seems like all FA are waiting to see what happens with Ohtani to set the market. FO doesn't see any internal depth at 3B that is ready in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

FO expects a bounce back season offensively for the team. Too many voices speaking to the players so they're hoping that by having Mattingly and Martinez it helps focus it down.

 

Damn a lot of juicy nuggets in here. thanks! The Bichette and Vlad stuff more or less reflects the board consensus.

 

Lack of interest in Kirk is another dagger in the Sheriff's corpse. As far as the 3 catchers, Jays took the best deal they could get. The board may have overrated their value.

 

Bad news on Martinez and Barger being defensively limited.

[Spanky99]

I had dinner last night with my friend who has been letting me know about call ups and trades for a few seasons, I've discovered how he knows so much information for someone who doesn't work in baseball and I'm not going to state anything that could dox him but it's cool.

 

We chatted life in general but always end up coming back to baseball and here's the general run down of what he has passed along to me, as always take with a bit of a grain of salt.

 

Last winter the Jays tried to trade Jansen first because he had the most interest of their catchers, the Cardinals and Braves were the two teams that were into him before the Braves went for Sean Murphy and the Cards signed Contreras. The Jays did ask for Nootbaar and the cards countered with Helsely, he doesn't know what the Braves offered or if it got far enough along in talks to actually specify names. This was the best offer the team got for Jano so they tried to move Kirk and had no good or fair offers. Teams were concerned about his conditioning and were concerned about how dramatically the offence dropped off in the second half. When they pivoted to Moreno they had very little interest. Teams were concerned about the dramatic drop off in power from the broken thumb and had concerns about the defence. The original deal the Diamondbacks approached the Jays with was Jake McCarthy for Moreno straight up, the talks fell apart when the Jays countered with either Varsho or Thomas. The only way they would move Varsho was getting another MLB OF back in Gurriel so this was the end trade. Toronto was hoping to have Gurriel play last season out in LF/DH. The Jays wanted to end up with an OF of Gurriel, a CF, Springer and Grossman or another bat that could cover the corners and DH but this fell apart when Gurriel needed to be included in the Varsho trade. Team is still happy with the trade and their own internal defensive metrics agree with that we see on FanGraphs and Baseball Prospectus that Moreno had a poor defensive season.

 

Alek Manoah and the Jays are fine, Manaoh was suffering a shoulder injury early in the off season last year and it took him a while to get underway and he arrived at Spring Training out of shape and not game ready and the Jays were pissed as he didn't disclose the injury. The Jays are open to moving Manoah but they want fair return.

 

Bo Bichette is available for trade but the asking price is quite high, two MLB ready players one of who can play SS and a prospect. They Jays have approached Bichette twice about long term deals and he wants to try free agency.

 

Vlad Guerrero has asked for an extension and the Jays have not come to the table. He thinks the Jays would move Vlad tomorrow if a trade that made sense based on his potential came up. The FO doesn't know what to expect year to year with him from a fitness or performance standpoint.

 

 

The Jays want to sign Jansen to an extension but want to see if he can stay healthy.

The FO no longer sees Orelvis Martinez or Barger as SS/3B but as a 2B and RF respectively.

 

FO is really high on Alan Roden - think he makes it up in 2024.

 

The Jays are in on Ohtani and they have legitimate interest in Yamamoto, they would love to sign both. The rumblings of an Ohtani payroll and a non-Ohtani payroll are accurate. His understanding is the team has 40M-50M to work, if they sign Ohtani that drops but not dramatically. This lets them trade pitching for bats.

 

The front office is not sold on Bellinger, they liked the bounce back season but have concerns about the quality of the contact.

 

The FO wants one of Chapman or Candaleiro and has had extensive talks with both. Seems like all FA are waiting to see what happens with Ohtani to set the market. FO doesn't see any internal depth at 3B that is ready in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

FO expects a bounce back season offensively for the team. Too many voices speaking to the players so they're hoping that by having Mattingly and Martinez it helps focus it down.

 

[Marew]

If the jays bid highest for ohtani we would own him. That’s how it works. He is actioning his life rights for the next decade and we as Roger’s customers all get to own a piece of him.

[Jimcanuck]

Interesting that Sorrow's source says the Jays explored trade options for Jansen, Kirk, and Moreno, in that order.

[L54]

I had dinner last night with my friend who has been letting me know about call ups and trades for a few seasons, I've discovered how he knows so much information for someone who doesn't work in baseball and I'm not going to state anything that could dox him but it's cool.

 

We chatted life in general but always end up coming back to baseball and here's the general run down of what he has passed along to me, as always take with a bit of a grain of salt.

 

Last winter the Jays tried to trade Jansen first because he had the most interest of their catchers, the Cardinals and Braves were the two teams that were into him before the Braves went for Sean Murphy and the Cards signed Contreras. The Jays did ask for Nootbaar and the cards countered with Helsely, he doesn't know what the Braves offered or if it got far enough along in talks to actually specify names. This was the best offer the team got for Jano so they tried to move Kirk and had no good or fair offers. Teams were concerned about his conditioning and were concerned about how dramatically the offence dropped off in the second half. When they pivoted to Moreno they had very little interest. Teams were concerned about the dramatic drop off in power from the broken thumb and had concerns about the defence. The original deal the Diamondbacks approached the Jays with was Jake McCarthy for Moreno straight up, the talks fell apart when the Jays countered with either Varsho or Thomas. The only way they would move Varsho was getting another MLB OF back in Gurriel so this was the end trade. Toronto was hoping to have Gurriel play last season out in LF/DH. The Jays wanted to end up with an OF of Gurriel, a CF, Springer and Grossman or another bat that could cover the corners and DH but this fell apart when Gurriel needed to be included in the Varsho trade. Team is still happy with the trade and their own internal defensive metrics agree with that we see on FanGraphs and Baseball Prospectus that Moreno had a poor defensive season.

 

Alek Manoah and the Jays are fine, Manaoh was suffering a shoulder injury early in the off season last year and it took him a while to get underway and he arrived at Spring Training out of shape and not game ready and the Jays were pissed as he didn't disclose the injury. The Jays are open to moving Manoah but they want fair return.

 

Bo Bichette is available for trade but the asking price is quite high, two MLB ready players one of who can play SS and a prospect. They Jays have approached Bichette twice about long term deals and he wants to try free agency.

 

Vlad Guerrero has asked for an extension and the Jays have not come to the table. He thinks the Jays would move Vlad tomorrow if a trade that made sense based on his potential came up. The FO doesn't know what to expect year to year with him from a fitness or performance standpoint.

 

 

The Jays want to sign Jansen to an extension but want to see if he can stay healthy.

The FO no longer sees Orelvis Martinez or Barger as SS/3B but as a 2B and RF respectively.

 

FO is really high on Alan Roden - think he makes it up in 2024.

 

The Jays are in on Ohtani and they have legitimate interest in Yamamoto, they would love to sign both. The rumblings of an Ohtani payroll and a non-Ohtani payroll are accurate. His understanding is the team has 40M-50M to work, if they sign Ohtani that drops but not dramatically. This lets them trade pitching for bats.

 

The front office is not sold on Bellinger, they liked the bounce back season but have concerns about the quality of the contact.

 

The FO wants one of Chapman or Candaleiro and has had extensive talks with both. Seems like all FA are waiting to see what happens with Ohtani to set the market. FO doesn't see any internal depth at 3B that is ready in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

FO expects a bounce back season offensively for the team. Too many voices speaking to the players so they're hoping that by having Mattingly and Martinez it helps focus it down.

 

Post of the year! Thanks for this info man, really interesting

[connorp]

Well one area that is reported by non-mystery men that is contradictory, is that the Jays and Vlad have discussed an extension. There has been mutual interest in a long term extension, just at different figures.

 

It was discussed when it usually is, prior to the season starting. Many times players/teams kill the talk during the season as it can be distracting. They’ll likely talk again this year, but I’m sure Vlad isn’t getting any closer to the numbers he wanted

[John_Havok]

Well one area that is reported by non-mystery men that is contradictory, is that the Jays and Vlad have discussed an extension. There has been mutual interest in a long term extension, just at different figures.

 

It was discussed when it usually is, prior to the season starting. Many times players/teams kill the talk during the season as it can be distracting. They’ll likely talk again this year, but I’m sure Vlad isn’t getting any closer to the numbers he wanted

 

If Vlad puts up the numbers the Jays want, he’ll get the number he wants.

[connorp]

If Vlad puts up the numbers the Jays want, he’ll get the number he wants.

 

If they talk this pre-season, it’ll be based on 2023. So his next chance will be 2025

[jaysblue]

Interesting that Sorrow's source says the Jays explored trade options for Jansen, Kirk, and Moreno, in that order.

 

I think most posters on here even preferred to trade/shop Jansen first before Kirk and Moreno because he was older, injury prone and had less years of control.

 

Kirk was overhyped on this board by many and still is. Teams were concerned with his conditioning and his huge second half slump in 2022. Even the Jays preferred moving Kirk over Moreno if they had the choice according to Sorrow. Regardless, looks like the value of all three catchers on the trade market weren't what we thought according to Sorrow's intel. A lot of teams had concerns regarding all three.

[John_Havok]

I think most posters on here even preferred to trade/shop Jansen first before Kirk and Moreno because he was older, injury prone and had less years of control.

 

Kirk was overhyped on this board by many and still is. Teams were concerned with his conditioning and his huge second half slump in 2022. Even the Jays preferred moving Kirk over Moreno if they had the choice according to Sorrow. Regardless, looks like the value of all three catchers on the trade market weren't what we thought according to Sorrow's intel. A lot of teams had concerns regarding all three.

 

Yeah, and everything said in the post made sense. all 3 catchers had value, all 3 had concerns attached due to injury history or lack of power. Tried catcher A, then B, then they took C. Despite the results from a team perspective, I'd still do that trade. Varsho just had like a 15th percentile outcome with the bat in 2023, that's not really something you expect to happen and still managed to be incredibly useful on the basepaths and defense. Even a return to league average with the bat and he's everything the Jays need for the next 3 seasons in CF. I'd give up a young limp noodle bat catcher with very debateable defense and 1 year of LGJ for that profile anytime.

[max silver]

All very interesting info.

 

Would love to sign both Ohtani and YY…that would free up a trade of Kikuchi to fill another area of need while keeping Manoah and Tiedeman as the next guys up when injury hits. Signing a #5 in this market to a 1 year deal would be easy as hell after that.

 

Weird to hear them moving on from both Barger and Orelvis as a possible 3B, but that would definitely explain their interest in bringing Chappy back or getting Candaleiro.

 

Roden needs HR power. I hope he develops it because it’s still not showing up in results yet.

 

Regarding the Bo and Vlad situation…yep. That’s just so typical Blue Jays. They one they want won’t sign, the one that wants to sign isn’t what they want.

 

Manoah situation makes far more sense now.

 

Roden started flashing a little more home run power in his AA stint where he hit 6 home runs in 209 plate appearances. The ISO only jumped 11 points up to .149 as his overall extra base production dropped a lot as the doubles largely dried up. I recall the home ballpark in New Hampshire is hitter friendly for left handed power so it remains to be seen if this home run spike is something that carries over to Buffalo once he works his way up.

 

I get the feeling that his ceiling is a Michael Brantley lite type of hitter if everything clicks for him in the future.

[jaysblue]

Yeah, and everything said in the post made sense. all 3 catchers had value, all 3 had concerns attached due to injury history or lack of power. Tried catcher A, then B, then they took C. Despite the results from a team perspective, I'd still do that trade. Varsho just had like a 15th percentile outcome with the bat in 2023, that's not really something you expect to happen and still managed to be incredibly useful on the basepaths and defense. Even a return to league average with the bat and he's everything the Jays need for the next 3 seasons in CF. I'd give up a young limp noodle bat catcher with very debateable defense and 1 year of LGJ for that profile anytime.

 

I find it ironic that Kirk at 25 still has upside according to some on here, but Moreno who is younger is deemed a "limp noodle bat." Why doesn't Moreno have upside but Kirk still does?

 

If we're talking about catchers with a "limp noodle bat," I think Kirk fits that description perfectly haha.

 

If Varsho can return to being a 3-4 WAR player over the next three years, I won't have an issue with the trade. It all depends on what Varsho does in 2024, 2025 and 2026. But yeah at his age of 27, Varsho could improve, still has upside and be so much better, but Moreno at age 23 is what he is.

[max silver]

I think most posters on here even preferred to trade/shop Jansen first before Kirk and Moreno because he was older, injury prone and had less years of control.

 

Kirk was overhyped on this board by many and still is. Teams were concerned with his conditioning and his huge second half slump in 2022. Even the Jays preferred moving Kirk over Moreno if they had the choice according to Sorrow. Regardless, looks like the value of all three catchers on the trade market weren't what we thought according to Sorrow's intel. A lot of teams had concerns regarding all three.

 

Ultimately the team would still have been in great shape behind the plate no matter which of the three catchers they ended up moving. Even with Kirk's struggles with the bat and Jansen missing half of the season the team still received the 6th most WAR in MLB from the trio of Jansen, Kirk and Heinemann, and 2nd in WAR for the last two seasons combined.

 

It's too bad Kirk is built like the MLB equivalent of Danny Devito, Jansen is made of glass and Moreno turned into a slap hitter for several consecutive seasons as it really limited the return each of these players was able to provide in trade.

[Laika]

I find it ironic that Kirk at 25 still has upside according to some on here, but Moreno who is younger is deemed a "limp noodle bat." Why doesn't Moreno have upside but Kirk still does?

 

If we're talking about catchers with a "limp noodle bat," I think Kirk fits that description perfectly haha.

 

If Varsho can return to being a 3-4 WAR player over the next three years, I won't have an issue with the trade. It all depends on what Varsho does in 2024, 2025 and 2026. But yeah at his age of 27, Varsho could improve, still has upside and be so much better, but Moreno at age 23 is what he is.

 

Go find one post saying this

 

Try to find one

 

Go do it

[Laika]

Moreno kind of put the "no power" label behind him in the second half. 5 HR in just 41 games and then 4 more in the playoffs (17 games) including some that weren't exactly wall scrapers.

 

He looks like a 15+ HR catcher. 20+ if he puts the games in.

 

The biggest concerns with Moreno are on defense. I guess baserunning too. He might not be the athletic, defensive asset scouts thought.

[max silver]

I find it ironic that Kirk at 25 still has upside according to some on here, but Moreno who is younger is deemed a "limp noodle bat." Why doesn't Moreno have upside but Kirk still does?

 

If we're talking about catchers with a "limp noodle bat," I think Kirk fits that description perfectly haha.

 

If Varsho can return to being a 3-4 WAR player over the next three years, I won't have an issue with the trade. It all depends on what Varsho does in 2024, 2025 and 2026. But yeah at his age of 27, Varsho could improve, still has upside and be so much better, but Moreno at age 23 is what he is.

 

Both Kirk and Moreno had portions of their career where they were noodle bats, and each of them has had stretches where they are high average hitters with power.

 

Kirk's first 544 plate appearances in MLB saw him produce a 139 wRC+ and hit 21 home runs. He hit the ball hard with regularity with an average exit velocity of 92.1 MPH and a hard hit rate of 46%. This is the type of upside he has displayed against major league pitching. If he returns to any semblance of this he is going to extremely valuable factoring in his gold glove nomination worthy defense behind the plate. Unfortunately he stopped squaring up the baseball almost completely in the second half of 2022, and the next 633 plate appearances aren't nearly as noteworthy. He has slumped to a 94 wRC+, hit only 10 home runs while slapping the ball around with an average exit velocity of 87.9 MPH.

 

It's far from determined what type of hitter Moreno is going to be moving forward. We can definitely state he's going to gun a bunch of runners down when behind the plate, but we simply don't know how his framing is going to look in the future. He had a hot streak to end the regular season which carried into the first few playoff rounds, but leading up to this he spent several seasons of play as a singles hitter who hit a ton of ground balls, seldomly walked, and hit for very little power. For the final 3 playoff rounds he did very little with the bat more akin to how he looked prior to his hot streak. I'd love if we could go back in time and avoid the broken hand that seemed to completely sap his power, but what is done is done.

[John_Havok]

I find it ironic that Kirk at 25 still has upside according to some on here, but Moreno who is younger is deemed a "limp noodle bat." Why doesn't Moreno have upside but Kirk still does?

 

If we're talking about catchers with a "limp noodle bat," I think Kirk fits that description perfectly haha.

 

If Varsho can return to being a 3-4 WAR player over the next three years, I won't have an issue with the trade. It all depends on what Varsho does in 2024, 2025 and 2026. But yeah at his age of 27, Varsho could improve, still has upside and be so much better, but Moreno at age 23 is what he is.

 

Well, Kirk has already shown he can hit for power in MLB in the past (admittedly it was maybe half a season), he just hasn't more recently, so you would expect it could return IF he can make the needed adjustments. Moreno hasnt demonstrated the upside of power that Kirk has yet.

 

Overall it's probably a moot point as neither of them profile to have power as a calling card going forward, but If I had to bet on which guy would hit 15 or more HR over a season a couple of times before they were 30, it would be Kirk.

 

Neither guy runs the bases well, which is odd to see for Moreno since he's a far better athlete than Kirk. Kirk has the better framing, Moreno has a better arm/pop time (difference of 0.08 seconds so... not massive but it's there). Both are excellent blockers, Kirk gets a bit of an edge there though for body of work

 

There's likely not enough between the two guys that you'd think one would drastically outperform the other in terms of total fWAR if both guys have similar playing time.

 

And interestingly... Baseball savant has the catcher throwing metrics broken down into 5 different aspects... avg footspeed of base stealer, avg number of feet from 2b when the ball crosses the plate, total pop time, then transfer time and avg arm velo in MPH. Very cool to go through

[Laika]

Well, Kirk has already shown he can hit for power in MLB in the past (admittedly it was maybe half a season), he just hasn't more recently, so you would expect it could return IF he can make the needed adjustments. Moreno hasnt demonstrated the upside of power that Kirk has yet.

 

Overall it's probably a moot point as neither of them profile to have power as a calling card going forward, but If I had to bet on which guy would hit 15 or more HR over a season a couple of times before they were 30, it would be Kirk.

 

Neither guy runs the bases well, which is odd to see for Moreno since he's a far better athlete than Kirk. Kirk has the better framing, Moreno has a better arm/pop time (difference of 0.08 seconds so... not massive but it's there). Both are excellent blockers, Kirk gets a bit of an edge there though for body of work

 

There's likely not enough between the two guys that you'd think one would drastically outperform the other in terms of total fWAR if both guys have similar playing time.

 

And interestingly... Baseball savant has the catcher throwing metrics broken down into 5 different aspects... avg footspeed of base stealer, avg number of feet from 2b when the ball crosses the plate, total pop time, then transfer time and avg arm velo in MPH. Very cool to go through

 

Some of this post has big "I don't even watch baseball" energy

 

Moreno has more raw pop IMO and a more traditional swing which seems more likely to actually yank homers. I could actually see him hitting 25 HR a few times if he figures it all out.

 

Moreno had a gross year on BsR but you can just look at the two guys and safely assume he will be at least 5 runs better at BsR than Kirk in every year.

 

They are not as similar as they first seem. I think when their careers are over the player profiles will be quite different, even if they are both good catchers who carry a decent BA.

[Brownie19]

Yeah like I understand signing guys to the most money and years might sometimes not always work. But Brownie is making it seem like Atkins discovered electricity by signing Ryu and Springer to big FA contracts.

 

Fine. Atkins gets no credit for signing big name free agents. Anyone could do what he did. My how stupid I am.

[RustyTrombone]

Passans new article explicitly only lists three teams as "chasing" Shohei and the Jays are one of them. Doyers and the Rangers the other two. Other teams might have already bowed out.