General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[jaysblue]

There's nobody to blame for Yimi unless you want to blame the team for not identifying that he was tipping his pitches sooner. Other than that - blame variance and bad luck? This is a good pen that's about to get better when Green returns.

 

Yeah his xFIP and K numbers still are very good. I'm sure we can attribute some to bad luck for sure as well as him maybe tipping his pitches. I just think he's a better option in the 6th/7th inning and not used coming out for another inning. I don't want him being used in critical spots especially in the Postseason. He should be down on the BP depth charts.

 

Lets hope Green comes back healthy and dominant. He definitely can be the missing BP piece this team needs. I wouldn't put all my cards on Green, but hope he can be an elite pen arm down the stretch and in the Postseason.

[Spanky99]

[Spanky99]

[Spanky99]

[max silver]

Yeah his xFIP and K numbers still are very good. I'm sure we can attribute some to bad luck for sure as well as him maybe tipping his pitches. I just think he's a better option in the 6th/7th inning and not used coming out for another inning. I don't want him being used in critical spots especially in the Postseason. He should be down on the BP depth charts.

 

Lets hope Green comes back healthy and dominant. He definitely can be the missing BP piece this team needs. I wouldn't put all my cards on Green, but hope he can be an elite pen arm down the stretch and in the Postseason.

 

Garcia went something like 4 weeks without allowing a single run. Over nearly the last two months he's arguably been the team's best reliever next to Mayza. I see zero reason to panic because he finally yielded a few runs on back to back days. His usage can be fluid based on how he's pitching, whereas if he's dominating the opposition there is no reason for the team to hamstring itself and limit his leverage, as this will invariably lead to the other leverage options being overused.

Edited July 24, 2023 by max silver

[BigCecil]

Man the numbers show that before the Mariners series we had the number 1 bullpen in the league since June 1st

 

They have been solid. I still have an irrational paranoia about our pen. PTSD from '21 and last years playoffs. If Greene comes back as Greene thats such a huge add.

[Jonn]

Yimi has actually been good since he fixed his issue with tipping pitches.

 

Since beginning of June he's got a 2.16era/2.26fip with a 18/1 K/BB.

 

He has been much better but has also been awful his last couple times out. I just think he can be cut bait and that money can be better spent elsewhere. Going to be a tax team soon. Can’t afford to be giving middle relievers $6m. Young arms from Buffalo need to emerge at some point.

[max silver]

He has been much better but has also been awful his last couple times out. I just think he can be cut bait and that money can be better spent elsewhere. Going to be a tax team soon. Can’t afford to be giving middle relievers $6m. Young arms from Buffalo need to emerge at some point.

 

Your way of thinking really puzzles me some times. (who am I kidding, basically all of the time). Garcia had a great stretch of games over nearly 2 months, and as soon as he gives up runs in back to back outings the crap about DFA'ing him comes back. Apparently two games where the batted balls fall in for hits is enough to cancel out two months of work where he was a key member of a shutdown pen.

 

What's this middle reliever nonsense you keep stating? Garcia has been very good in high leverage situations, 2.64 FIP, 11.57 K/9, and only a tiny bit better in medium leverage situations, 2.60 FIP, 9.82 K/9. The young arms can be held as depth pieces in case of injury or underperformance.

 

You seemed to have missed that the Blue Jays are already a luxury tax team. Pinching pennies on Garcia won't necessarily save them anything based on what relievers are being paid in free agency now, and there's no guarantee any of the young relievers working their way up through the system are going to be even as good as Garcia, let alone improving on what he has to offer.

[Jonn]

Your way of thinking really puzzles me some times. (who am I kidding, basically all of the time). Garcia had a great stretch of games over nearly 2 months, and as soon as he gives up runs in back to back outings the crap about DFA'ing him comes back. Apparently two games where the batted balls fall in for hits is enough to cancel out two months of work where he was a key member of a shutdown pen.

 

What's this middle reliever nonsense you keep stating? Garcia has been very good in high leverage situations, 2.64 FIP, 11.57 K/9, and only a tiny bit better in medium leverage situations, 2.60 FIP, 9.82 K/9. The young arms can be held as depth pieces in case of injury or underperformance.

 

You seemed to have missed that the Blue Jays are already a luxury tax team. Pinching pennies on Garcia won't necessarily save them anything based on what relievers are being paid in free agency now, and there's no guarantee any of the young relievers working their way up through the system are going to be even as good as Garcia, let alone improving on what he has to offer.

 

Yimi Garcia is not worth $6m. Period.

 

Don’t read anymore into it than that. Poor asset management.

 

I’m very aware of his performance since June. Hes been better in low leverage. He sucks in high leverage or extended outings.

 

He’s replaceable plain and simple. Don’t know what’s so hard to understand about it. They gotta stop the option from vesting. Perhaps the team and him can come to some kind of agreement that its not picked up. But he still gets his buyout. Very expensive middle reliever.

 

Where is this info even coming from that he has over 11 strikeouts per 9 in “high leverage” what does this source even associate as “high leverage”. He has clearly not been the setup man or used as often in close late games the past couple months so I’m calling BS. He worked his way into more leverage recently and it has not gone well. I don’t even think he’s that bad if used correctly. But for that price its a no for me.

[max silver]

Yimi Garcia is not worth $6m. Period.

 

Don’t read anymore into it than that. Poor asset management.

 

I’m very aware of his performance since June. Hes been better in low leverage. He sucks in high leverage or extended outings.

 

He’s replaceable plain and simple. Don’t know what’s so hard to understand about it. They gotta stop the option from vesting. Perhaps the team and him can come to some kind of agreement that its not picked up. But he still gets his buyout. Very expensive middle reliever.

 

Where is this info even coming from that he has over 11 strikeouts per 9 in “high leverage” what does this source even associate as “high leverage”. He has clearly not been the setup man or used as often in close late games the past couple months so I’m calling BS. He worked his way into more leverage recently and it has not gone well. I don’t even think he’s that bad if used correctly. But for that price its a no for me.

 

I see zero reason to fret so much over a $6 million option. If the team were to unceremoniously dump Garcia over a relative peanuts salary increase this would send a very poor message to potential free agents about whether the organisation is one to ultimately be trusted.

 

Garcia provided the team with 0.9 WAR last season, and he will very likely end up with a similar contribution in 2023. A relatively paltry 2 million dollar salary increase which was negotiated in good faith by both sides is far from the disaster you are attempting to portray. You are acting like Garcia is going to see his salary triple instead of a modest 50% increase.

[Jonn]

I see zero reason to fret so much over a $6 million option. If the team were to unceremoniously dump Garcia over a relative peanuts salary increase this would send a very poor message to potential free agents about whether the organisation is one to ultimately be trusted.

 

Garcia provided the team with 0.9 WAR last season, and he will very likely end up with a similar contribution in 2023. A relatively paltry 2 million dollar salary increase which was negotiated in good faith by both sides is far from the disaster you are attempting to portray. You are acting like Garcia is going to see his salary triple instead of a modest 50% increase.

 

If we’re spending $6 million a year on reliever I would just prefer someone who does a better job preventing base runners. His K rate is good but his stuff just isn’t consistent outing to outing. We see his fastball perform better with ample rest. So yes if used correctly he’s an asset but maybe I just want more from that spot. I just don’t want to see out flexibility hampered by relievers being overpaid. The team is getting expensive and the lack of prospect development has really made the issue worse. We pay a premium for back end Starters instead of develop them it makes things tough. We’re currently paying 4 Starting Pitchers over $20 million a season. But atleast Ryu is coming off the books.

[Terminator]

I lean toward yes on Yimi. He's been good and the velo ticking up makes me think he's worth it. But 6 mil for a fringe setup guy isn't exactly chump change. Would depend on 40 man stuff and how the pen is looking next year.

[MikeM3]

How the f*** is Pearson busting as a reliever

[Laika]

How the f*** is Pearson busting as a reliever

 

I guess lack of reps just ruined his development

 

Exactly like when Merryweather as a RP would get hit around. It didn't really make sense but he was just missing the finer points of pitching that almost every MLB P has.

 

Pearson will probably be a good reliever in 2 or 3 years

[G-Snarls]

 

Makes perfect sense to use 6 for now

[MikeM3]

I guess lack of reps just ruined his development

 

Exactly like when Merryweather as a RP would get hit around. It didn't really make sense but he was just missing the finer points of pitching that almost every MLB P has.

 

Pearson will probably be a good reliever in 2 or 3 years

 

3 plus pitches and gets no chase or zone whiffs. Mind boggling

[Dick_Pole]

Modified 6-man rotation hopefully translates into "6-man for now, and we evaluate Manoah on a start-by-start basis". His start in Seattle was just good enough to warrant another look. Not a fan of the walks but the pitches seem to be coming back a bit.

[Laika]

3 plus pitches and gets no chase or zone whiffs. Mind boggling

 

Mostly command, right. Too many fastballs as meatballs and not enough competitive breaking balls or different looks in the strike zone. So simple to hit against. Almost every hitter gets one cookie fastball each PA.

[John_Havok]

3 plus pitches and gets no chase or zone whiffs. Mind boggling

 

Looks to me like his breaking balls are very identifiable out of his hand allowing hitters to completely lay off them. I’d also suspect he’s tipping as that seems to be a common theme this season and a guy that throws 97-100 shouldn’t be having his heat squared up as much as it is.

[Laika]

Looks to me like his breaking balls are very identifiable out of his hand allowing hitters to completely lay off them. I’d also suspect he’s tipping as that seems to be a common theme this season and a guy that throws 97-100 shouldn’t be having his heat squared up as much as it is.

 

Well the Curve has like a 33% zone rate so hitters probably just ignore it

 

He had one outing where he could throw the curve for strikes and he looked like the best RP in baseball

[John_Havok]

Well the Curve has like a 33% zone rate so hitters probably just ignore it

 

He had one outing where he could throw the curve for strikes and he looked like the best RP in baseball

 

Yeah I remember that outing, utter dominance. He also tends to leave his slider very crushable.

[Laika]

Honestly, Pearson is a good trade chip so he very well may be gone.

 

Any rebuilding or retooling team will love him but I don't see how Toronto can trust him this year

[Dick_Pole]

Regarding the bullpen, it's less about performance and more about the abhorrent misuse. In a 2-1 tight game with your SP rolling and offense whiffing air you roll with your SP for as long as possible.

 

The decision on Gausman gets a little bit of wiggle room this time around given his injury status and he wasn't great that game but this dolt of a management team system has consistently yanked him early when they haven't had to. A 32 yo 11-year veteran who has proven himself to be a top 20 arm in this game can afford to face hitters three or four times in a game. A guy like Gausman SHOULD be talented and smart enough to make in-game adjustments to the point where a third or fourth look is as new as it is with an RP.

 

I hate these "trendy smart" analytics probably pushed by 120 pound nerds allergic to soy milk. If every team follows these dumbass rules "cuz analytics" religiously like they did bunting back in the 1980's, it turns from an advantage into a disadvantage. I don't care what they think they know, or what extremely asymmetrical access to information they have compared to myself. This s*** that they are pulling clearly does not work. A potential sweep of the M's turned into a 1-2 series.

 

A team with a BP this good on paper per the stats should not be resulting in this many blown leads. This is why people think the BP is a lot worse than it is. If Gausman, Berrios and Bassitt at pitching well that day, they should go a minimum of 7 innings and a complete game should be goal. Especially if the Jays are going to go with a six man rotation.

[Jonn]

Regarding the bullpen, it's less about performance and more about the abhorrent misuse. In a 2-1 tight game with your SP rolling and offense whiffing air you roll with your SP for as long as possible.

 

The decision on Gausman gets a little bit of wiggle room this time around given his injury status and he wasn't great that game but this dolt of a management team system has consistently yanked him early when they haven't had to. A 32 yo 11-year veteran who has proven himself to be a top 20 arm in this game can afford to face hitters three or four times in a game. A guy like Gausman SHOULD be talented and smart enough to make in-game adjustments to the point where a third or fourth look is as new as it is with an RP.

 

I hate these "trendy smart" analytics probably pushed by 120 pound nerds allergic to soy milk. If every team follows these dumbass rules "cuz analytics" religiously like they did bunting back in the 1980's, it turns from an advantage into a disadvantage. I don't care what they think they know, or what extremely asymmetrical access to information they have compared to myself. This s*** that they are pulling clearly does not work. A potential sweep of the M's turned into a 1-2 series.

 

A team with a BP this good on paper per the stats should not be resulting in this many blown leads. This is why people think the BP is a lot worse than it is. If Gausman, Berrios and Bassitt at pitching well that day, they should go a minimum of 7 innings and a complete game should be goal. Especially if the Jays are going to go with a six man rotation.

 

I have always lived by the rule that you ride with your best pitcher and live with the result. Nobody in that situation would have questioned Gausman coming back out at 87 pitches. He wasn't dominant that day but he is the best pitcher on the team. And where they were in the lineup and the way he had settled down he was the best option hands down.

 

Pearson was unfortunately awful it could have worked out if he wasn't. But when Gausman still has bullets I would like to see him in the game.

[Laika]

Regarding the bullpen, it's less about performance and more about the abhorrent misuse. In a 2-1 tight game with your SP rolling and offense whiffing air you roll with your SP for as long as possible.

 

The decision on Gausman gets a little bit of wiggle room this time around given his injury status and he wasn't great that game but this dolt of a management team system has consistently yanked him early when they haven't had to. A 32 yo 11-year veteran who has proven himself to be a top 20 arm in this game can afford to face hitters three or four times in a game. A guy like Gausman SHOULD be talented and smart enough to make in-game adjustments to the point where a third or fourth look is as new as it is with an RP.

 

I hate these "trendy smart" analytics probably pushed by 120 pound nerds allergic to soy milk. If every team follows these dumbass rules "cuz analytics" religiously like they did bunting back in the 1980's, it turns from an advantage into a disadvantage. I don't care what they think they know, or what extremely asymmetrical access to information they have compared to myself. This s*** that they are pulling clearly does not work. A potential sweep of the M's turned into a 1-2 series.

 

A team with a BP this good on paper per the stats should not be resulting in this many blown leads. This is why people think the BP is a lot worse than it is. If Gausman, Berrios and Bassitt at pitching well that day, they should go a minimum of 7 innings and a complete game should be goal. Especially if the Jays are going to go with a six man rotation.

 

Goose, Bassitt, and Berrios are all top 20 in IP this year

 

Isolated decisions aside I don't really think these guys are being babied or yanked too early on a regular basis...

[Spanky99]

Goose, Bassitt, and Berrios are all top 20 in IP this year

 

Isolated decisions aside I don't really think these guys are being babied or yanked too early on a regular basis...

 

I keep saying this.

[jaysblue]

Yimi Garcia is not worth $6m. Period.

 

Don’t read anymore into it than that. Poor asset management.

 

I’m very aware of his performance since June. Hes been better in low leverage. He sucks in high leverage or extended outings.

 

He’s replaceable plain and simple. Don’t know what’s so hard to understand about it. They gotta stop the option from vesting. Perhaps the team and him can come to some kind of agreement that its not picked up. But he still gets his buyout. Very expensive middle reliever.

 

Where is this info even coming from that he has over 11 strikeouts per 9 in “high leverage” what does this source even associate as “high leverage”. He has clearly not been the setup man or used as often in close late games the past couple months so I’m calling BS. He worked his way into more leverage recently and it has not gone well. I don’t even think he’s that bad if used correctly. But for that price its a no for me.

 

Yeah someone like Garcia should be replaceable every season. We know what Garcia is and at 6M it's a little pricey paying that for a 6th/7th inning guy. Jays need to do a better job at replacing him either via in house or by targeting other reliever FAs who could be better. Finding middle relievers during the offseason shouldn't be difficult. There are always guys who could be had for some good value.

[jaysblue]

Garcia went something like 4 weeks without allowing a single run. Over nearly the last two months he's arguably been the team's best reliever next to Mayza. I see zero reason to panic because he finally yielded a few runs on back to back days. His usage can be fluid based on how he's pitching, whereas if he's dominating the opposition there is no reason for the team to hamstring itself and limit his leverage, as this will invariably lead to the other leverage options being overused.

 

I don't want to see Yimi used in a 2-1 game in lets say the 8th inning in a Postseason game when a game is on the line, period. I'm not paniking but he's not an elite setup man. He's a middle reliever at best.

[jaysblue]

Goose, Bassitt, and Berrios are all top 20 in IP this year

 

Isolated decisions aside I don't really think these guys are being babied or yanked too early on a regular basis...

 

I don't think guys are being yanked too early. But its good to assess the situation at hand. Sometimes it doesn't hurt having Gausman, Bassitt or Berrios go through a lineup for a 4th time. Again depending on a lot of things.

 

The Jays don't have a pen that could close out a 2-1 game starting in the 6th inning. I just don't feel comfortable. That's pushing it to its limits and lets say trying to do that back-to-back games in a Wildcard match, not good.

 

Look at Game 2 of the WC last year. Heck they couldn't even close an 8-1 lead when they took Gausman out.

[Eat My Shatkins]

If Green is still a stud when he comes back, between him, Romano, Mayza, Swanson and Richards the Jays have late inning relief covered pretty well IMO. As mentioned, Garcia has been much better lately so those 6 relievers are a pretty strong set.

 

I hate trading for relievers because even the best can s*** the bed with a change of scenery, but Bednar would be a really nice addition along with Green.