General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[jaysblue]

Okay now someone make a rank about everything Atkins has done right

 

I think the rational posters on here agree Atkins has done a lot of things right during his time here. Signing guys like Semien, Belt, Kiermier on one-year deals, Gausman contract, Springer contract, trading for Ray and letting him walk as a FA, signing Bassitt, trading for Berrios, trading for Chapman, etc. He's botched some FA contracts like with Ryu, Roark, Garcia, Morales, some relievers, botched the Josh Donaldson trade, failed to lock up elite talent like Bo or at the time Vladdy after 2021. As well, drafting and player development during his tenure has been terrible and considering this team was awful in 2017, 2018 and 2019, you would think they would have some young players to show for it. As well, he's failed to take this team to the next level on numerous occasions. This team feels like a team that just fights for a WC seed and loses in the WC round or ALDS.

 

Again Atkins has been overall a decent GM, though he hasn't been exactly spectacular. There is nothing wrong in criticizing him or his decisions. Also, some posters need to acknowledge Atkins has done several good things as well.

[jaysblue]

I would say league average. Upper 3rd is pushing it.

 

The FO has done a great job at upgrading the MLB roster every season (Springer, Gausman, trading for Chapman, players on 1-year deals like Belt, Kiermier, Semien etc.) but their drafting and player development has been terrible. So I wouldn't consider them upper half.

[wilko]

Poor Atkins getting absolutely s*** on.

[Brownie19]

I would say league average. Upper 3rd is pushing it.

 

Who's the best GM? Don't you think you could take that GM and make a list of all his failures too?

[Jonn]

Poor Atkins getting absolutely s*** on.

 

In fairness he does it to himself.

[RustyTrombone]

I think the rational posters on here agree Atkins has done a lot of things right during his time here. Signing guys like Semien, Belt, Kiermier on one-year deals, Gausman contract, Springer contract, trading for Ray and letting him walk as a FA, signing Bassitt, trading for Berrios, trading for Chapman, etc. He's botched some FA contracts like with Ryu, Roark, Garcia, Morales, some relievers, botched the Josh Donaldson trade, failed to lock up elite talent like Bo or at the time Vladdy after 2021. As well, drafting and player development during his tenure has been terrible and considering this team was awful in 2017, 2018 and 2019, you would think they would have some young players to show for it. As well, he's failed to take this team to the next level on numerous occasions. This team feels like a team that just fights for a WC seed and loses in the WC round or ALDS.

 

Again Atkins has been overall a decent GM, though he hasn't been exactly spectacular. There is nothing wrong in criticizing him or his decisions. Also, some posters need to acknowledge Atkins has done several good things as well.

 

A lot of the things you put down as Ws or Ls are not even close to decided yet. The Springer contract is debatable either way, he missed half the year when he would have provided the most return and has been declining since, the Berrios trade/contract is at most a wash not a W. Bassit contract could become like Roark very easily, too early to decide on that one.

 

At the same time not signing Vladdy after 2021 is proving to be a wise decision cause Vladdy is just not that guy anymore.

[MikeM3]

The FO has done a great job at upgrading the MLB roster every season (Springer, Gausman, trading for Chapman, players on 1-year deals like Belt, Kiermier, Semien etc.) but their drafting and player development has been terrible. So I wouldn't consider them upper half.

 

It comes down to what you value in a front office because lots of teams can just sign the best SP available. Does that make them good?

 

Here's my take on Atkins in a nutshell. Traded Teo, our cleanup hitter. In a vacuum it's smart right? We got a good reliever, which was a need.

 

But why can't we just find Erik Swanson ourselves instead. Why do we always have to pay real stuff for these guys?

 

We made 2 deals with LAD for 6th starter types. One didn't hurt us (Kendall Williams) but one really might (Frasso).

 

We can't be in year 7 or whatever and not have a 6th starter still. It's insane.

 

At some point it will become untenable.

[Olerud363]

BETTER:

 

Rays, Braves, Dodgers, Astros

 

CLOSE:

 

Orioles, Yankees, Padres, Giants, Mariners, Twins, Brewers, Guardians, Cardinals

 

WORSE:

 

Royals, Athletics, Nationals, Rockies, Tigers, White Sox, Pirates, Red Sox, Angels, Marlins, Phillies, Mets, Diamondbacks, Cubs, Rangers, Reds

 

 

A few of those placements will be controversial but whatever. The general picture doesn't change. Put the Yankees in tier 1 if you want, or the Mets in tier 2. Doesn't change anything.

 

The Yankees should be at the top level. They've finished ahead of the Blue Jays like the last 6 years and so far this one. Averaging like 97 wins a year since 2017. Their bad stretch 2014 to 2016 included taking the Blue Jays to game 152 in the division race in 2015.

 

Sox should be ahead of Blue Jays until Blue Jays win a playoff game. The Sox won the World Series in 2018, and their current 2020-2023 version that is the worst team in baseball history is beating the Jays 2020-2023 teams in playoff wins 6-0. Shut out so far.

 

(FYI just checked Sox prospects including their super prospect Marcello Mayer, he is like going early 2023 Orelvis in aa... what is it with these prospects that are having trouble hitting .320 .420 .580? Orioles top 20 prospects all do that no problem)

[Laika]

The Yankees should be at the top level. They've finished ahead of the Blue Jays like the last 6 years and so far this one. Averaging like 97 wins a year since 2017. Their bad stretch 2014 to 2016 included taking the Blue Jays to game 152 in the division race in 2015.

 

Sox should be ahead of Blue Jays until Blue Jays win a playoff game. The Sox won the World Series in 2018, and their current 2020-2023 version that is the worst team in baseball history is beating the Jays 2020-2023 teams in playoff wins 6-0. Shut out so far.

 

(FYI just checked Sox prospects including their super prospect Marcello Mayer, he is like going early 2023 Orelvis in aa... what is it with these prospects that are having trouble hitting .320 .420 .580? Orioles top 20 prospects all do that no problem)

 

I'll give you the Yankees but not the Red Sox. They have been good for a long time but they have operated like a clown organization for a few years now so I think their current regime is simply stupid and bad.

[connorp]

It comes down to what you value in a front office because lots of teams can just sign the best SP available. Does that make them good?

 

Here's my take on Atkins in a nutshell. Traded Teo, our cleanup hitter. In a vacuum it's smart right? We got a good reliever, which was a need.

 

But why can't we just find Erik Swanson ourselves instead. Why do we always have to pay real stuff for these guys?

 

We made 2 deals with LAD for 6th starter types. One didn't hurt us (Kendall Williams) but one really might (Frasso).

 

We can't be in year 7 or whatever and not have a 6th starter still. It's insane.

 

At some point it will become untenable.

 

Yeah there’s a lot of teams that didn’t have the resources to offer Gausman a contract. Say like the Twins or something

[xposbrad]

Poor Atkins getting absolutely s*** on.

 

It's one thing if Jays were sporting a 130-140m payroll, but they are over 200 now and should have a much better team on the field and with prospects. Seems like just yesterday all the fans here were crapping on Baltimore how they were the laughing stock of the league. If the Jays had their prospects that's a different story, but I don't see much hope right now unless they do a small rebuild or push payroll way higher which doesn't seem possible.

[Jays333]

BETTER:

 

Rays, Braves, Dodgers, Astros

 

CLOSE:

 

Orioles, Yankees, Padres, Giants, Mariners, Twins, Brewers, Guardians, Cardinals

 

WORSE:

 

Royals, Athletics, Nationals, Rockies, Tigers, White Sox, Pirates, Red Sox, Angels, Marlins, Phillies, Mets, Diamondbacks, Cubs, Rangers, Reds

 

 

A few of those placements will be controversial but whatever. The general picture doesn't change. Put the Yankees in tier 1 if you want, or the Mets in tier 2. Doesn't change anything.

If your talking about Front Offices that field a competitive team via trades, FA or whatever resources are available to them sure the Jays are up there in the middle for now. If your Looking at the team on the field, the depth, the farm system and sustainability I would absolutely put the Jays down in the bottom tier.

[jaysblue]

Who's the best GM? Don't you think you could take that GM and make a list of all his failures too?

 

Yup you can for sure. Every GM, even the top ones make mistakes. Any rational poster understands that. At the same time, you can criticize a GM when the results aren't there or expectations haven't been met over a period of time.

[jaysblue]

Poor Atkins getting absolutely s*** on.

 

Someone start a Fire Ross Atkins thread.

[jaysblue]

A lot of the things you put down as Ws or Ls are not even close to decided yet. The Springer contract is debatable either way, he missed half the year when he would have provided the most return and has been declining since, the Berrios trade/contract is at most a wash not a W. Bassit contract could become like Roark very easily, too early to decide on that one.

 

At the same time not signing Vladdy after 2021 is proving to be a wise decision cause Vladdy is just not that guy anymore.

 

Yeah Springer contract could end up looking bad if he turns into a fragile aging OF who is made of glass. I also give Atkins more credit for the optics of that contract - at the time Springer was considered the top FA that offseason and Atkins went out to show the Blue Jays mean business. So from optics, I like that move even if the contract in the later years turn bad. Showed Toronto could sign big name players and that they wanted to come here. Just hope Springer can put together a couple more 4 WAR seasons.

 

Yeah right now, looks like the Jays dodged a bullet not offering Vladdy a huge extension. At the same time, he's failed to lock up young elite talent like AA has done with the Braves. So was just using Vladdy as an example. After 2021, if he did sign Vladdy to a team friendly extension, I bet most of this board would have been ecstatic.

[Jonn]

Someone start a Fire Ross Atkins thread.

 

Pretty much every thread is a fire Ross Atkins thread.

[Brownie19]

Yup you can for sure. Every GM, even the top ones make mistakes. Any rational poster understands that. At the same time, you can criticize a GM when the results aren't there or expectations haven't been met over a period of time.

 

Then what is the point of making a list that just shows all the "misses"? It's an incomplete way to evaluate and look at the GM. Rational posters understand that too right?

[jaysblue]

It comes down to what you value in a front office because lots of teams can just sign the best SP available. Does that make them good?

 

Here's my take on Atkins in a nutshell. Traded Teo, our cleanup hitter. In a vacuum it's smart right? We got a good reliever, which was a need.

 

But why can't we just find Erik Swanson ourselves instead. Why do we always have to pay real stuff for these guys?

 

We made 2 deals with LAD for 6th starter types. One didn't hurt us (Kendall Williams) but one really might (Frasso).

 

We can't be in year 7 or whatever and not have a 6th starter still. It's insane.

 

At some point it will become untenable.

 

Yeah it's frustrating that Atkins and the FO haven't been able to find these guys without having to other solid assets. The bullpen is still middle of the pack, which has been an issue the past two/three seasons, nothing elite. Their depth because of poor drafting has also hurt them. Its tough to sign a guy to be your No. 6 or 7th starter. You got to hope you have some young guys waiting in the wings who can be somewhat decent in that role if need be.

[jaysblue]

Then what is the point of making a list that just shows all the "misses"? It's an incomplete way to evaluate and look at the GM. Rational posters understand that too right?

 

Where did I make a list of showing all the misses? If you actually read my posts, I've given credit where credit is due to Atkins as well as being critical.

 

When someone like myself criticize or question this FO, you're one of the homer posters who come out blazing to defend Ross Atkins and this front office. It doesn't matter what it is.

 

Yeah some posters are too extreme and just complain. But when other well respected posters like myself are critical, you automatically start bringing out the pitch forks!

[jaysblue]

Pretty much every thread is a fire Ross Atkins thread.

 

John Schneider has his own, so Ross deserves one.

[Eat My Shatkins]

TIL that the Jays pitching staff leads all of MLB in K/9 (9.63)

 

Too many walks (12th best in MLB) and definitely too many HRs given up (5th most in MLB)

[Eat My Shatkins]

Jays record against AL east - 6-16 (0.272 win%) 44 win pace

Jays record against rest of MLB - 31-15 (0.673 win%) 109 win pace

[Spanky99]

Hahahaha...

 

[jaysblue]

Jays record against AL east - 6-16 (0.272 win%) 44 win pace

Jays record against rest of MLB - 31-15 (0.673 win%) 109 win pace

 

Nice cherry picking!

 

It's too bad they have to play games against the AL East. Imagine if there wasn't a balanced schedule, Jays would be even worse.

[jaysblue]

Hahahaha...

 

 

Of course Brownie liked this haha.

 

It's a shame that these homers don't accept rational criticism. They're all wearing blinkers.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Nice cherry picking!

 

It's too bad they have to play games against the AL East. Imagine if there wasn't a balanced schedule, Jays would be even worse.

 

Cherry picking?

 

Did you think I was using those stats as some sort of f***ing compliment?

[BCZ]

How can the O's be a better team lol

[BCZ]

Jays record against AL east - 6-16 (0.272 win%) 44 win pace

Jays record against rest of MLB - 31-15 (0.673 win%) 109 win pace

 

Basically all this says to me is were a mediocre team that can't beat good teams but can trash bad teams...

[Brownie19]

Of course Brownie liked this haha.

 

It's a shame that these homers don't accept rational criticism. They're all wearing blinkers.

 

You are firmly atop Mount Stupid sir. Enjoy the view.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Basically all this says to me is were a mediocre team that can't beat good teams but can trash bad teams...

 

Well f***ing duh

 

More like above average team as opposed to mediocre.