General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Sorrow]

Sucks that Pop is hurt but we need a few arms anyway, I've lost all faith in Bass, I know the sample is small but he looks awful. Velocity is down, K/9 is down, BB/9 is up, giving up more hard contact, more barrels.

[Pendleton]

[Jonn]

Jay Jackson's AAA numbers are pretty misleading. He's been actually really good outside of 2 appearances against Rochester

[John_Havok]

Jay Jackson's AAA numbers are pretty misleading. He's been actually really good outside of 2 appearances against Rochester

 

I hope he brings it, he probably knows this is his last shot.

[Dagagad]

What do we think of canning Atkins and hiring Click as GM. He’s in house and he’s an obvious upgrade.

 

That poll of front office executives that clearly showed that we are not considered to be cutting edge by other orgs was super telling to me.

 

We don’t have to keep a guy because he is simply above average. Especially if you could line someone like Click up.

 

I worry about losing him after this season.

 

Edit: this could all happen after the season but i’d love to see this happen. If they needed to have informal talks with Click now do that.

[Laika]

What do we think of canning Atkins and hiring Click as GM. He’s in house and he’s an obvious upgrade.

 

That poll of front office executives that clearly showed that we are not considered to be cutting edge by other orgs was super telling to me.

 

We don’t have to keep a guy because he is simply above average. Especially if you could line someone like Click up.

 

I worry about losing him after this season.

 

Edit: this could all happen after the season but i’d love to see this happen. If they needed to have informal talks with Click now do that.

 

I'd support it. Atkins is mid.

 

Shapiro is the GOAT but Atkins can be improved upon.

[glory]

What do we think of canning Atkins and hiring Click as GM. He’s in house and he’s an obvious upgrade.

 

That poll of front office executives that clearly showed that we are not considered to be cutting edge by other orgs was super telling to me.

 

We don’t have to keep a guy because he is simply above average. Especially if you could line someone like Click up.

 

I worry about losing him after this season.

 

Edit: this could all happen after the season but i’d love to see this happen. If they needed to have informal talks with Click now do that.

 

Atkins is solid, but definitely replaceable. I'd be fine with it. Whether it would actually happen is another story. It would have to take either missing the playoffs this season or getting embarrassed in the WC round again for it to be possible, and even then I'm not sure. With Vlad/Bo only controllable through 2025, if Click stays around long enough (he probably won't), then I could see him being Atkins' successor at some point. It's not like Atkins has set this up to be a sustainable juggernaut. After 2025 it's highly possible the team will have to go through a rebuild depending on what happens with Vlad and Bo's contracts, and I sure as hell don't want Atkins around if that happens.

[G-Snarls]

Orioles are 22-10

 

Holy f***. That's the second best record in all of baseball.

[MikeM3]

Orioles are way ahead of us. Been saying this since last year.

[BigCecil]

Orioles are 22-10

 

Holy f***. That's the second best record in all of baseball.

 

I watched that game. Bashing the ball. This first part of the season has been mixed. Overall a good start for us but it’s all relative. I hate seeing the Rays play .800 + ball still and how hot the O’s are. Intellectually you know they will regress at some point and we just have to hope our Jays can pick it up even more at some point. Lots of time.

[Laika]

Even if you only look at the infield... Baltimore is so far ahead of Toronto that it's terrifying.

 

Gunnar Henderson

Jackson Holliday

Jordan Westburg

Joey Ortiz

Coby Mayo

Connor Norby

 

And Mateo, Urias, and Frazier who are all playing well on the big club.

 

And it's a similar story in the Outfield and for Pitching.

 

Toronto's infield depth is horrendous in comparison. Bo for a few years, Chapman and Merrifield on walk years, then two useless MLB players in Biggio and Espinal plus the dying hope that was Addison Barger. There is basically nobody else coming. Baltimore has like two Addison Bargers and three prospects better than him.

[Carlos Danger]

Even if you only look at the infield... Baltimore is so far ahead of Toronto that it's terrifying.

 

Gunnar Henderson

Jackson Holliday

Jordan Westburg

Joey Ortiz

Coby Mayo

Connor Norby

 

And Mateo, Urias, and Frazier who are all playing well on the big club.

 

And it's a similar story in the Outfield and for Pitching.

 

Toronto's infield depth is horrendous in comparison. Bo for a few years, Chapman and Merrifield on walk years, then two useless MLB players in Biggio and Espinal plus the dying hope that was Addison Barger. There is basically nobody else coming. Baltimore has like two Addison Bargers and three prospects better than him.

 

On top of this, they are able to create very solid to above bullpens every year.

 

Throw in a few decent starters and we should be very worried.

[MikeM3]

Can you imagine Atkins finding Jorge Lopez off the scrap heap, let alone finding him then making him an allstar then trading him for Cano and Povich.

[Omar]

Even if you only look at the infield... Baltimore is so far ahead of Toronto that it's terrifying.

 

Gunnar Henderson

Jackson Holliday

Jordan Westburg

Joey Ortiz

Coby Mayo

Connor Norby

 

And Mateo, Urias, and Frazier who are all playing well on the big club.

 

And it's a similar story in the Outfield and for Pitching.

 

Toronto's infield depth is horrendous in comparison. Bo for a few years, Chapman and Merrifield on walk years, then two useless MLB players in Biggio and Espinal plus the dying hope that was Addison Barger. There is basically nobody else coming. Baltimore has like two Addison Bargers and three prospects better than him.

 

All for about $76M in payroll!

[Laika]

Can you imagine Atkins finding Jorge Lopez off the scrap heap, let alone finding him then making him an allstar then trading him for Cano and Povich.

 

Unfathomable

[Jonn]

Orioles starting pitching is absolute dog s***. If they were smart they would use some of that prospect capital to address that.

 

Dylan Cease should be at the top of their list.

[Laika]

All for about $76M in payroll!

 

That's the only advantage Toronto has and it's short term.

 

Baltimore chose not to invest in the big club this year so their MLB talent didn't project as well as Toronto's for 2023.

 

If/when Baltimore doubles that payroll... yikes.

[John_Havok]

That's the only advantage Toronto has and it's short term.

 

Baltimore chose not to invest in the big club this year so their MLB talent didn't project as well as Toronto's for 2023.

 

If/when Baltimore doubles that payroll... yikes.

 

It’s obviously a good thing, but when they’ve had to put up with nearly 20 straight years of terrible…. sprinkled with maybe 4 years of being .500 or better…. And now this season, is that really a recipe you’d want to follow? That kind of cycle is not something I’d ever want the Jays to go through just to get a 3-5 year window.

[Pendleton]

That's the only advantage Toronto has and it's short term.

 

Baltimore chose not to invest in the big club this year so their MLB talent didn't project as well as Toronto's for 2023.

 

If/when Baltimore doubles that payroll... yikes.

 

A lot of that doubling will be taken up by having to lock up their own players, but point still stands.

[jaysblue]

A lot of that doubling will be taken up by having to lock up their own players, but point still stands.

 

Yeah if they want to retain their top young players down the road once they become arb eligible or FA's, they'll have to increase their payroll so that will cut into how much they could spend via free agency.

 

I think Baltimore needs an elite starter to be taken seriously as a legit contender. I know they're 22-10, but can't fathom their rotation. They need an ace.

[Laika]

It’s obviously a good thing, but when they’ve had to put up with nearly 20 straight years of terrible…. sprinkled with maybe 4 years of being .500 or better…. And now this season, is that really a recipe you’d want to follow? That kind of cycle is not something I’d ever want the Jays to go through just to get a 3-5 year window.

 

You can do most of what they did without being horrible for years.

 

Yeah, you are never drafting a Jackson Holliday but... Gunnar Henderson was picked 42nd overall. Grayson was 11th.

 

And you can try to sign the international version of Jackson Holliday still...

[bones10]

That's the only advantage Toronto has and it's short term.

 

Baltimore chose not to invest in the big club this year so their MLB talent didn't project as well as Toronto's for 2023.

 

If/when Baltimore doubles that payroll... yikes.

 

How can they fix this?

 

i'm full doomer on the Jays in the next year or two.

[connorp]

You can do most of what they did without being horrible for years.

 

Yeah, you are never drafting a Jackson Holliday but... Gunnar Henderson was picked 42nd overall. Grayson was 11th.

 

And you can try to sign the international version of Jackson Holliday still...

 

It’s comical that you’ll point out Jays aren’t well equipped with the pipeline and everyone agrees. I bring it up and get all sorts of pushback lol

 

I hope all these guys at least add some fruity flavors when they put your balls in their mouth

[gruber92]

 

Now someone needs to push Belt down the stairs so we can get Horowitz up here. He'd be a massive upgrade to Belt, great OBP and doesn't strike out much while being more athletic. Two more weeks max on Belt Ross, don't be a f***ing mule and just swallow it as a bad signing.

[Laika]

It’s comical that you’ll point out Jays aren’t well equipped with the pipeline and everyone agrees. I bring it up and get all sorts of pushback lol

 

I hope all these guys at least add some fruity flavors when they put your balls in their mouth

 

It's funny. Make smart posts for a long time and people start to sort of respect you. You should try it

[glory]

It’s obviously a good thing, but when they’ve had to put up with nearly 20 straight years of terrible…. sprinkled with maybe 4 years of being .500 or better…. And now this season, is that really a recipe you’d want to follow? That kind of cycle is not something I’d ever want the Jays to go through just to get a 3-5 year window.

 

The Orioles bottomed out far more significantly, but from a timeline standpoint, was putting up with a couple of 100 loss seasons really that much worse than what the Jays endured right after the Bautista window closed? To put things into perspective:

 

2016: Jays and Orioles had the exact same record, met in the WC game, Jays won.

2017: Both teams tried, and failed, to extend the window of an aging roster.

2018: Jays tried again, Orioles were just really bad, held on to assets way too long only to trade them for nothing (Machado, JD, etc), and gave up mid season.

2019: Orioles hired a new GM to completely tank, Jays began a 1 year tank

2020: Pandemic season, no fans, throwaway year for the entire league from a development standpoint.

2021: Orioles finish 52-110, 2nd year of their Elias tank, the Jays win 91 games while missing the playoffs by a game.

2022: Orioles finish a respectable 83-79 in what was expected to be their 3rd full season tank, while the Jays win 92 games and make the playoffs.

 

So essentially, both made the playoffs in 2016, both held on to an aging roster rather than start a rebuild in 2017-18, both began a real tank in 2019, and the Jays became good (2021) one year sooner (2022). Unfortunately we don't know what the Jays would have done in 2020 if the pandemic never happened, but a full season rotation (after Ryu) of Roark, Anderson, an injury prone Shoemaker, and trash Thornton combined with a middling pen probably doesn't see .500, although maybe the offense would have carried it to respectability. The Jays also spent significantly in 2020-21, getting Ryu, Springer, Semien, etc. The O's basically did nothing and it's been nothing but organic growth. I guess the main difference is the Jays were just bad in 2017-18 while the O's were horrendous, but I mean, bad is bad.

 

I think we have to give the O's some credit here. This was a pretty quick turnaround all things considered, and the farm system is still in an amazing spot. Wouldn't shock me at all if 2023 is the last season the Jays are better than them for a while, assuming they end up better this season to begin with.

Edited May 6, 2023 by glory

[G-Snarls]

That's the only advantage Toronto has and it's short term.

 

Baltimore chose not to invest in the big club this year so their MLB talent didn't project as well as Toronto's for 2023.

 

If/when Baltimore doubles that payroll... yikes.

 

When they do spend it tends to be wasteful

[connorp]

It's funny. Make smart posts for a long time and people start to sort of respect you. You should try it

 

I was a 1st ballot HOFer 10 years ago. Ty Cobb

[Carlos Danger]

Orioles starting pitching is absolute dog s***. If they were smart they would use some of that prospect capital to address that.

 

Dylan Cease should be at the top of their list.

 

Rodriguez, Bradish, Wells are all solid and already here.. Add reinforcements and it is a solid rotation.

[John_Havok]

The Orioles bottomed out far more significantly, but from a timeline standpoint, was putting up with a couple of 100 loss seasons really that much worse than what the Jays endured right after the Bautista window closed? To put things into perspective:

 

2016: Jays and Orioles had the exact same record, met in the WC game, Jays won.

2017: Both teams tried, and failed, to extend the window of an aging roster.

2018: Jays tried again, Orioles were just really bad, held on to assets way too long only to trade them for nothing (Machado, JD, etc), and gave up mid season.

2019: Orioles hired a new GM to completely tank, Jays began a 1 year tank

2020: Pandemic season, no fans, throwaway year for the entire league from a development standpoint.

2021: Orioles finish 52-110, 2nd year of their Elias tank, the Jays win 91 games while missing the playoffs by a game.

2022: Orioles finish a respectable 83-79 in what was expected to be their 3rd full season tank, while the Jays win 92 games and make the playoffs.

 

So essentially, both made the playoffs in 2016, both held on to an aging roster rather than start a rebuild in 2017-18, both began a real tank in 2019, and the Jays became good (2021) one year sooner (2022). Unfortunately we don't know what the Jays would have done in 2020 if the pandemic never happened, but a full season rotation (after Ryu) of Roark, Anderson, an injury prone Shoemaker, and trash Thornton combined with a middling pen probably doesn't see .500, although maybe the offense would have carried it to respectability. The Jays also spent significantly in 2020-21, getting Ryu, Springer, Semien, etc. The O's basically did nothing and it's been nothing but organic growth. I guess the main difference is the Jays were just bad in 2017-18 while the O's were horrendous, but I mean, bad is bad.

 

I think we have to give the O's some credit here. This was a pretty quick turnaround all things considered, and the farm system is still in an amazing spot. Wouldn't shock me at all if 2023 is the last season the Jays are better than them for a while, assuming they end up better this season to begin with.

 

Go back further. Look at all the Baltimore struggles from like 2000 to 2015. Yes, this time they managed to finally draft a bunch of hits all at around the same time. But it’s been 20+ years of pretty much gutter ball.

 

When you draft 11th, 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 1st in a 5 year stretch, you better have some talent to show for it.

 

Compare the Jays over that same stretch, who drafted 12th, 11th, 5th, 19th, and 23rd.

 

Still need to hit on the picks of course, but I can tell which brand of baseball I’d rather watch in that 5 year period

Edited May 6, 2023 by John_Havok