General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[glory]

Yeah with Bo I don't think it's about Toronto or the organization as much as wanting to get paid what he feels he's worth. He clearly disagrees with the CBA and how baseball salaries are structured for younger players, so the only way he can maximize his worth is to test free agency. I don't even blame Bo. He should try to get everything he can get. It's up to the Jays to decide whether they want to just accept the next 3 years and then look for a replacement SS after that, or trade him before free agency. If they want to be a "sustainable contender" rather than having to do a mini retool after 2025, then they probably should consider trading Bo at some point because losing both him and Vlad at the same time would be pretty difficult to recover from short term. Although I still think the Jays and Vlad will work something out at some point. For some reason I feel that has a good chance of happening.

[Captain_Obvious]

As I was saying all along, I don't believe it has anything to do with Toronto, it's about the MLB process...

 

 

Read the link in the tweet...

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/bo-bichette-on-blue-jays-pre-arbitration-system-i-disagree-with-the-formula/

 

 

Bo is a good player but he does not seem to be that smart. He is far from being an outlier and his disagreement with the formula means little to arbitrators.

[Spanky99]

Bo is a good player but he does not seem to be that smart. He is far from being an outlier and his disagreement with the formula means little to arbitrators.

 

Did you read the link?

 

Why would either of these two players turn down those higher salaries, knowing that by doing so they would earn less — $23,550 in Bichette’s case; $6,200 in Manoah’s — this season?

 

“It's pretty simple — I disagree with sticking to a formula to value us as players.” Bichette said. “I think that there's more to it than the way that they view us. I think that for players, that’s not the right way to do it.”

 

“It was a decision that me and my agent came down to,” Manoah said, “Competitively, we think that this was the best decision and that it will help us in the long run.”

 

 

Each MLB club utilizes its own methodology to determine salaries for pre-arbitration players, some of them not even sharing the process behind the result with players and their agents. But upon overhauling their own approach prior to the 2020 season, the Blue Jays laid the formula out for all of their players to see.

 

Each day of service time is worth a slight increase; each plate appearance for a hitter and inning pitched for a pitcher, too. There are also $10,000 bonuses up for grabs if a player wins a major award or is a top-three finalist in MVP or Cy Young voting. Under the formula, players can earn a maximum of $15,000 for career active days on the roster and $25,000 for career playing time. That means the most a player could increase their salary — outside of a major award bonus — is $40,000.

 

Had he accepted the salary that formula produced, Bichette would’ve come pretty close to maximizing the scale this year, earning a little over $37,000 based on his 275 days of active service and 1,030 plate appearances of playing time, plus an additional $10,000 for being named an all-star last season. Meanwhile, Manoah’s service and playing time adjustments would have come out to a bit north of $12,000.

 

But each player rejected those raises, triggering a policy in the uniform player contract utilized in Toronto’s system that assigned them a renewal salary halfway between the major-league minimum — $700,000 this season under the game’s new collective bargaining agreement — and the figures the formula generated.

 

“I disagree with the formula. I think there's more to what players bring to the team,” Bichette said. “I think that it's very obvious that myself and Alek are both outliers in the situation. So, yeah, I just disagree with the formula.”

 

Also, of course the arbitrators don't care.

[John_Havok]

Did you read the link?

 

 

 

Also, of course the arbitrators don't care.

 

The formula he is referring to in these articles is that Jays internal one they use to calculate what they offer above league minimum to pre-arb players who perform well though, not the one relating to arbitration.

[Spanky99]

The formula he is referring to in these articles is that Jays internal one they use to calculate what they offer above league minimum to pre-arb players who perform well though, not the one relating to arbitration.

 

I know, and every team has its own formula. Hey man, I just posted that s*** for clarity. I couldn't care less about this arb case. Neither side is being unreasonable.

[infinitebook]

Edward Rogers wanted to get rid of Masai to save money, and yet people in the Sportsnet article comments calling Bo the greedy one. Also remember when we lost service for a day because Rogers was cutting costs with their infrastructure?

[Spanky99]

Edward Rogers wanted to get rid of Masai to save money, and yet people in the Sportsnet article comments calling Bo the greedy one. Also remember when we lost service for a day because Rogers was cutting costs with their infrastructure?

 

Who cares? Your not actually complaining about payroll, are you? Or if employees should bring up s*** from a handful of years ago, in its new climate?

[AdamGreenwood]

Just to give the other side of the Bo argument...

 

Vlad made 7.9 for his first arb season in 2022.

 

Vlad's fWAR from 2019-2021 was 6.3 and it was practically all in 2021. He had to 2 crap years and 1 good year.

Bo's fWAR from 2019-2022 (they were able to get an extra season due to manipulating service time) is 11.8.

 

69 HRs vs Vlads 72. 239 RBIs vs Vlads 219. 127 wRC+ vs Vlad's 135. 262 runs scored vs Vlad's 209. 100 doubles vs Vlad's 68. .298 average to Vlad's .289. The gap in PA's is less than 300, so around half a season with Bo having 1727 vs Vlad's 1455. OBP .340 to Vlad's .339. SLG .491 to Vlad's .517

 

I used the stats that are traditionally used in arbitration as far as I can tell. Bo's number is not crazy and you could probably argue he could have filed for a higher #. As it stands the Jays have filed at 5m, him at 7.5 so the midpoint is 6.25m. All his side has to do is prove he is worth at least 6.251 million and he gets 7.5. I'd say he wins that case without a doubt.

 

MLBTR predicted him to get 6.1 million, in which case the Blue Jays have the closer number. Bo might win, but not 'without a doubt'. Good analysis though.

[wired000]

Tool is a bit of an interesting case. It's a gateway that could go either way. I personally find Tool's music boring and overrated and Maynard James Keenan to be the absolute biggest douche in the rock world outside of actual predators. But not all Tool fans are automatic toilet drinkers. Some of them can be. Knowing Tool at least means the person probably has some basic knowledge of actual bands and music. Let's just put that one as a warning sign but nothing definitive can be concluded.

 

I rarely ever reply here but I have to say I completely disagree with everything You said here. Yes, to each their own but this is waaaay off!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Laika]

Just to give the other side of the Bo argument...

 

Vlad made 7.9 for his first arb season in 2022.

 

Vlad's fWAR from 2019-2021 was 6.3 and it was practically all in 2021. He had to 2 crap years and 1 good year.

Bo's fWAR from 2019-2022 (they were able to get an extra season due to manipulating service time) is 11.8.

 

69 HRs vs Vlads 72. 239 RBIs vs Vlads 219. 127 wRC+ vs Vlad's 135. 262 runs scored vs Vlad's 209. 100 doubles vs Vlad's 68. .298 average to Vlad's .289. The gap in PA's is less than 300, so around half a season with Bo having 1727 vs Vlad's 1455. OBP .340 to Vlad's .339. SLG .491 to Vlad's .517

 

I used the stats that are traditionally used in arbitration as far as I can tell. Bo's number is not crazy and you could probably argue he could have filed for a higher #. As it stands the Jays have filed at 5m, him at 7.5 so the midpoint is 6.25m. All his side has to do is prove he is worth at least 6.251 million and he gets 7.5. I'd say he wins that case without a doubt.

 

But fWAR is not relevant for arb and they do use hardware.

 

Vlad had MVP runner up, AS, SS going into first arb. The near MVP win probably carried tons of weight.

 

Bichette just can't compare.

[Spanky99]

But fWAR is not relevant for arb and they do use hardware.

 

Vlad had MVP runner up, AS, SS going into first arb. The near MVP win probably carried tons of weight.

 

Bichette just can't compare.

 

It's always what have you done for me lately, projections for Arb or the upcoming season is real on Arb cases, where as fangraphs etc, use 2 years past of data.

[John_Havok]

But fWAR is not relevant for arb and they do use hardware.

 

Vlad had MVP runner up, AS, SS going into first arb. The near MVP win probably carried tons of weight.

 

Bichette just can't compare.

 

Yeah I know the fWAR doesn’t matter, just using it as a reference to show that the perceived gap in talent between the two is not really apparent when you look closely at counting stats.

 

And yes, the MVP award would carry a lot of weight. Bichette also has a SS and AS from 2021 though.

[RobinThicc]

Scott Boras says Jays, Twins, Cubs were after Bogaerts.

 

"we knew at the forefront that Bogey would be somewhere besides Boston. Minnesota, the Cubs, the Blue Jays, they were really after him. But we kind of knew the Padres’ guy was Bogaerts (after Trea Turner rejected their offer)."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2023/01/15/scott-boras-carlos-correa-mlb-free-agency-mets/11054597002/

 

 

Could see the Jays outbidding the Twins and possibly the cubs, unfortunately the padres were determined to give out a huge contract

[John_Havok]

Scott Boras says Jays, Twins, Cubs were after Bogaerts.

 

"we knew at the forefront that Bogey would be somewhere besides Boston. Minnesota, the Cubs, the Blue Jays, they were really after him. But we kind of knew the Padres’ guy was Bogaerts (after Trea Turner rejected their offer)."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2023/01/15/scott-boras-carlos-correa-mlb-free-agency-mets/11054597002/

 

 

Could see the Jays outbidding the Twins and possibly the cubs, unfortunately the padres were determined to give out a huge contract

 

Would it also mean that Bo is more willing to switch positions than some give him credit for? Like, obviously he’s not going to give up the position for anyone on a 1 year deal (Semien) or someone who good defensively but a noodle bat.

[Ray]

Would it also mean that Bo is more willing to switch positions than some give him credit for? Like, obviously he’s not going to give up the position for anyone on a 1 year deal (Semien) or someone who good defensively but a noodle bat.

 

Or they had a trade lined up for Bo if they signed Bogaerts.

[Ray]

Not ideal

 

[Terminator]

These cases are often tough sledding for the players but Bo has a decent argument. He might be a top 10 SS all-time for someone his age and his comparables are right there.

 

I think he might have shot in arbitration but he aimed slightly too high with his number.

[Spanky99]

Would it also mean that Bo is more willing to switch positions than some give him credit for? Like, obviously he’s not going to give up the position for anyone on a 1 year deal (Semien) or someone who good defensively but a noodle bat.

 

He's said in the past he would, if it makes the team better. I don't get why people see Bo as a villain.

[L54]

He's said in the past he would, if it makes the team better. I don't get why people see Bo as a villain.

 

Because he wants more of Rogers money! How dare he shut up and play kid

[Terminator]

Not ideal

 

 

Probably couldn't endure another spring training of drunk Florida shenanigans from Pete Walker.

[Stangstag]

He's said in the past he would, if it makes the team better. I don't get why people see Bo as a villain.

 

There’s some false idea out there that Bo is entrenched at shortstop and unwilling to switch positions. In reality he’ll play where the FO tells him to, it just makes most sense to keep him at SS for now.

[WryNGinger]

Not ideal

 

 

This seems like odd timing with only a month before pitchers report. Wonder if there is some type of philosophy difference or he just got a better opportunity?

[connorp]

connorp gets a short timeout to think about why and how he was being racist

 

You’re the perfect combination of woke and having the inability to think critically.

 

Nothing I said was racist. I was referring to a subset of African Americans only. I shared some very alarming stats about pro athletes that run in the wrong circles, which can lead to some really sketchy investments and poor money management.

 

If I called a bunch of South Boston wanna be white boys thugs, you’d understand I wasn’t talking about all white people. Same if I talked about people at a Trump rally being a bunch of rednecks, or a Phish concert a bunch of deadhead stoners. Or referred to a white person or group as “white trash”, you wouldn’t think I meant all white people.

 

Your wild leap that calling some black people thugs means you think they’re all thugs is in your white knight head only. I don’t think that. I’ve been around many a good black families in sports and appreciate all the black people that go on to be much more successful than me.

 

That doesn’t mean you can’t call a spade a spade. When you read about some guy that got in a violent altercation with a cop and it goes south, you see it for what it is, rather than think we’re a racist country. At least non woke people anyway.

 

Eastern and Western Asians and Middle Eastern people are absolutely killing it here in academics and moving on the great careers. So get out of here with your CRT

 

I won’t spam any more than that but I don’t like being called a racist when it’s not true. Your kind just changed the definition of racism.

[Spanky99]

This seems like odd timing with only a month before pitchers report. Wonder if there is some type of philosophy difference or he just got a better opportunity?

 

Jays don't block promotions, so the latter. Well, I think, lol.

[G-Snarls]

Jays don't block promotions, so the latter.

 

Yeah

 

If it was due to bullpen performance or philosophical issues they would have fired him in October

[Spanky99]

You’re the perfect combination of woke and having the inability to think critically.

 

Nothing I said was racist. I was referring to a subset of African Americans only. I shared some very alarming stats about pro athletes that run in the wrong circles, which can lead to some really sketchy investments and poor money management.

 

If I called a bunch of South Boston wanna be white boys thugs, you’d understand I wasn’t talking about all white people. Same if I talked about people at a Trump rally being a bunch of rednecks, or a Phish concert a bunch of deadhead stoners. Or referred to a white person or group as “white trash”, you wouldn’t think I meant all white people.

 

Your wild leap that calling some black people thugs means you think they’re all thugs is in your white knight head only. I don’t think that. I’ve been around many a good black families in sports and appreciate all the black people that go on to be much more successful than me.

 

That doesn’t mean you can’t call a spade a spade. When you read about some guy that got in a violent altercation with a cop and it goes south, you see it for what it is, rather than think we’re a racist country. At least non woke people anyway.

 

Eastern and Western Asians and Middle Eastern people are absolutely killing it here in academics and moving on the great careers. So get out of here with your CRT

 

I won’t spam any more than that but I don’t like being called a racist when it’s not true. Your kind just changed the definition of racism.

 

Feel better, baldilocks?!

[Laika]

You’re the perfect combination of woke and having the inability to think critically.

 

Nothing I said was racist. I was referring to a subset of African Americans only. I shared some very alarming stats about pro athletes that run in the wrong circles, which can lead to some really sketchy investments and poor money management.

 

If I called a bunch of South Boston wanna be white boys thugs, you’d understand I wasn’t talking about all white people. Same if I talked about people at a Trump rally being a bunch of rednecks, or a Phish concert a bunch of deadhead stoners. Or referred to a white person or group as “white trash”, you wouldn’t think I meant all white people.

 

Your wild leap that calling some black people thugs means you think they’re all thugs is in your white knight head only. I don’t think that. I’ve been around many a good black families in sports and appreciate all the black people that go on to be much more successful than me.

 

That doesn’t mean you can’t call a spade a spade. When you read about some guy that got in a violent altercation with a cop and it goes south, you see it for what it is, rather than think we’re a racist country. At least non woke people anyway.

 

Eastern and Western Asians and Middle Eastern people are absolutely killing it here in academics and moving on the great careers. So get out of here with your CRT

 

I won’t spam any more than that but I don’t like being called a racist when it’s not true. Your kind just changed the definition of racism.

 

You make the mistake here if thinking anyone gives a f*** what you even think about this.

 

It's sad that you still don't get it. The line "It’s like NBA players, you’d think they’d get their money and thug out..." is patently racist. It's as simple as word choice.

 

"thug out" is just abhorrently racist in that context. Grossly racist.

 

You'll probably never get it though because you are extremely stupid. And modern media makes guys like you think they are unique and important and overflowing with sage practical wisdom and common sense.

[Spanky99]

[Jays24]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/01/boras-blue-jays-cubs-twins-were-really-after-xander-bogaerts.html

 

Surprised to hear that we were after Bogauerts. This would have changed so much of our offseason.

[Spanky99]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/01/boras-blue-jays-cubs-twins-were-really-after-xander-bogaerts.html

 

Surprised to hear that we were after Bogauerts. This would have changed so much of our offseason.

 

https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/10602-General-Blue-Jays-Discussion-Thread-(2023)?p=1669472&viewfull=1#post1669472