Around Baseball 2023

[MikeM3]

AA never went all in enough

[jaysblue]

The Ruben Amaro method doesn't work very well.

 

Lmao why are you comparing AA with Ruben Amaro?

[MikeM3]

We are kinda also Ruben Amaroing right now

[max silver]

AA never went all in enough

 

Sarcasm? Aside from selling his soul to the devil I don't think there's much more AA could have done when it comes to pushing in chips at the trade deadline.

[jaysblue]

Also Dombrowski. Winning/getting close to a WS isn’t that impressive when a team opens up a short contention window to do it.

 

Did they really open up a short contention window? 2013 and 2014 didn't work out obviously but that's when AA decided to add to the roster. Who knows maybe in 2014 they add more at the trade deadline if they had the expanded WC format as they do now. You can count 2014 as a window if that's the case. No different than one of Atkins teams making the third WC spot or missing out by the Postseason by one game in 2021. As well, in 2015 and 2016 they had their window where they were legit World Series contenders.

 

Who knows in 2017 if AA was still around what other moves he would have made to upgrade the roster. Atkins and Co. botched the EE negotiations that offseason and instead rushed to sign Morales which was a mistake. As well, once the 2017 season was a lost year and it became evident the window was probably closing, Atkins never traded Donaldson at the right time which definitely set the Jays back a bit in terms of adding to the farm system.

 

Even under Atkins, the Jays have a short contention window. What happens to this team after 2025 when Bo leaves as a FA or Vladdy and many other core pieces? Do the Jays have the farm system to replace those guys?

[jaysblue]

Sarcasm? Aside from selling his soul to the devil I don't think there's much more AA could have done when it comes to pushing in chips at the trade deadline.

 

Maybe in 2014 but there was no expanded WC format like there is today so would have been risky. Also, I know some core players like Bautista and others called out AA for not adding before the deadline to help the team, which I think definitely influenced AA to go big at the 2015 deadline when it came to upgrading the roster.

 

A lot of trades made in 2015 definitely helped the Jays over the final two months. None of those Jays players and prospects traded didn't amount to much anyways afterwards, so it's not like those trades set the organization way back.

[Stangstag]

Maybe in 2014 but there was no expanded WC format like there is today so would have been risky. Also, I know some core players like Bautista and others called out AA for not adding before the deadline to help the team, which I think definitely influenced AA to go big at the 2015 deadline when it came to upgrading the roster.

 

A lot of trades made in 2015 definitely helped the Jays over the final two months. None of those Jays players and prospects traded didn't amount to much anyways afterwards, so it's not like those trades set the organization way back.

 

Agreed.

 

But anyways, my point about AA is he is not the same guy he was when he was helming the Jays. He’s smarter and more experienced now, he wouldn’t have become this guy without leaving the Jays and working with the Dodgers.

[BTS]

Did they really open up a short contention window? 2013 and 2014 didn't work out obviously but that's when AA decided to add to the roster. Who knows maybe in 2014 they add more at the trade deadline if they had the expanded WC format as they do now. You can count 2014 as a window if that's the case. No different than one of Atkins teams making the third WC spot or missing out by the Postseason by one game in 2021. As well, in 2015 and 2016 they had their window where they were legit World Series contenders.

 

Who knows in 2017 if AA was still around what other moves he would have made to upgrade the roster. Atkins and Co. botched the EE negotiations that offseason and instead rushed to sign Morales which was a mistake. As well, once the 2017 season was a lost year and it became evident the window was probably closing, Atkins never traded Donaldson at the right time which definitely set the Jays back a bit in terms of adding to the farm system.

 

Even under Atkins, the Jays have a short contention window. What happens to this team after 2025 when Bo leaves as a FA or Vladdy and many other core pieces? Do the Jays have the farm system to replace those guys?

 

I don’t understand why you keep asking me to defend Atkins. I think he’s done a mediocre job and is completely replaceable.

[Stangstag]

I don’t understand why you keep asking me to defend Atkins. I think he’s done a mediocre job and is completely replaceable.

 

Yeah im also not defending Atkins. Just trying to point out AA wasn’t the golden boy when he was here, he was still learning.

 

ALSO he chose to leave.

[jaysblue]

Agreed.

 

But anyways, my point about AA is he is not the same guy he was when he was helming the Jays. He’s smarter and more experienced now, he wouldn’t have become this guy without leaving the Jays and working with the Dodgers.

 

I mean of course with experience, you become better at your craft and understand more than you did before. AA was still a great GM and baseball mind while he was here with the Jays. Yes he made some mistakes as every GM does, but it's shocking to see a lot of posters on here putting Atkins up higher than him.

 

In terms of AA, you can argue a lot of what he did in Toronto in terms of contract extensions he's doing in Atlanta. It's not like he just discovered under the Dodgers lol. He signed Bautista and EE to team friendly contract extensions which doesn't get talked about enough. Similar to what he's doing in Atlanta now.

 

On the trade front, AA has matured and probably has learned from his past mistakes in Toronto, will acknowledge that. We haven't seen him make a Marlins trade with the Braves.

[Nexii]

Jays are 5th in pitching WAR and 8th in position player WAR. Frustrating team to watch because they are talented yet so not clutch. Not that I believe in clutch but you start to wonder, they just wither in high leverage every time this season

[max silver]

Did they really open up a short contention window? 2013 and 2014 didn't work out obviously but that's when AA decided to add to the roster. Who knows maybe in 2014 they add more at the trade deadline if they had the expanded WC format as they do now. You can count 2014 as a window if that's the case. No different than one of Atkins teams making the third WC spot or missing out by the Postseason by one game in 2021. As well, in 2015 and 2016 they had their window where they were legit World Series contenders.

 

Who knows in 2017 if AA was still around what other moves he would have made to upgrade the roster. Atkins and Co. botched the EE negotiations that offseason and instead rushed to sign Morales which was a mistake. As well, once the 2017 season was a lost year and it became evident the window was probably closing, Atkins never traded Donaldson at the right time which definitely set the Jays back a bit in terms of adding to the farm system.

 

Even under Atkins, the Jays have a short contention window. What happens to this team after 2025 when Bo leaves as a FA or Vladdy and many other core pieces? Do the Jays have the farm system to replace those guys?

It's revisionist history to place all of the blame on the Edwin fiasco on the Blue Jays as his agent is easily as much to blame if not more so. Edwin turned down the best offer he ended up seeing in free agency at the behest of his agent. I don't see where the rush to sign Morales in his place came from but that doesn't change the fact that Edwin's decision to turn down the offer ultimately led to him switching organizations.

 

 

The 2017 team had enough issues that keeping Edwin wouldn't have been nearly enough to extend the window of contention. Tulo predictably broke for good, Baustista literally became old overnight, Sanchez's career was ruined by blisters, Donaldson started breaking down, Martin was beginning his decline phase etc. The team didn't have a lot of resources left in the minor leagues to trade, there were no young prospects ready to take over for aging veterans, and the payroll was already maxed out so adding more dollars through free agency wasn't much of an option either. The writing was on the wall and the team should have been dismantled then and there.

[jaysblue]

I don’t understand why you keep asking me to defend Atkins. I think he’s done a mediocre job and is completely replaceable.

 

You're avoiding the questions which is hilarious.

 

You're saying AA traded for expensive FA contracts. What about Atkins using up $65M of the payroll for signed guys like Springer, Ryu and Bassitt for this season, who are all above 33. Blue Jays also have the 7th highest payroll in baseball right now. Pretty much the entire Jays rotation were free agents or were acquired via trade- Gausman, Bassitt, Kikuchi, Ryu, and Berrios who they traded and then extended. How much money is tied up to all of those arms? Manoah is really their only homegrown arm.

 

How is the Jays farm system currently? It looks pretty bare to me so I don't understand how you can criticize AA for stripping down the Jays organizational depth while he was here, where you give Atkins a free pass. Unless Atkins pulls off some magic, things don't look that promising for the Jays after 2025.

[jaysblue]

It's revisionist history to place all of the blame on the Edwin fiasco on the Blue Jays as his agent is easily as much to blame if not more so. Edwin turned down the best offer he ended up seeing in free agency at the behest of his agent. I don't see where the rush to sign Morales in his place came from but that doesn't change the fact that Edwin's decision to turn down the offer ultimately led to him switching organizations.

 

 

The 2017 team had enough issues that keeping Edwin wouldn't have been nearly enough to extend the window of contention. Tulo predictably broke for good, Baustista literally became old overnight, Sanchez's career was ruined by blisters, Donaldson started breaking down, Martin was beginning his decline phase etc. The team didn't have a lot of resources left in the minor leagues to trade, there were no young prospects ready to take over for aging veterans, and the payroll was already maxed out so adding more dollars through free agency wasn't much of an option either. The writing was on the wall and the team should have been dismantled then and there.

 

You write revisionist history all the time lmao when it comes to this team.

 

Yes Atkins rushed to sign Morales to a 3-year deal/$33M early in the offseason because they were afraid of losing EE since his agent did turn down a deal. Sure can place some blame on EE's agent for the negotiations as well, but regardless should have been handled better by both sides. Who knows, maybe under AA they keep Edwin and other players are brought in to compliment the roster. We'll never know obviously.

 

As for 2017, they still had a competitive window but like you said a lot went wrong. Was an aging roster, Tulo became broken, Bautista was done, Martin wasn't the same as in 2015 and 2016, a lot of injuries etc. Atkins still kept that window open before the season and didn't dismantle it, so it's not like they thought 2017 was going to be a lost year at the beginning. Unless you had a crystal ball, the team on paper still had a bit of a window in 2017. A lot went wrong during the season and yes then the writing was on the wall. Atkins should have traded Donaldson at the trade deadline in 2017 or at least the next offseason though didn't and lost out on getting better value.

[BTS]

You're avoiding the questions which is hilarious.

 

You're saying AA traded for expensive FA contracts. What about Atkins using up $65M of the payroll for signed guys like Springer, Ryu and Bassitt for this season, who are all above 33. Blue Jays also have the 7th highest payroll in baseball right now. Pretty much the entire Jays rotation were free agents or were acquired via trade- Gausman, Bassitt, Kikuchi, Ryu, and Berrios who they traded and then extended. How much money is tied up to all of those arms? Manoah is really their only homegrown arm.

 

How is the Jays farm system currently? It looks pretty bare to me so I don't understand how you can criticize AA for stripping down the Jays organizational depth while he was here, where you give Atkins a free pass. Unless Atkins pulls off some magic, things don't look that promising for the Jays after 2025.

 

Are you trolling me? This back and forth started when I said the team under AA wasn't nearly as well-run as the current Braves. Every response you've made to me has included some variation of "what about Atkins". I'm not sure why you're expecting me to defend him, but I gave my answer in my previous post: I don't think he's done a great job either, and I wouldn't care at all if he was replaced tomorrow.

[L54]

I have no idea what point Sil is trying to make

[connorp]

I don’t ever recall a baseball player trying to sit out for a contract issue; a holdout. Guaranteed salaries and all.

Acura would be a prime candidate though. Not sure what kind of guy he is though.

[max silver]

You're avoiding the questions which is hilarious.

 

You're saying AA traded for expensive FA contracts. What about Atkins using up $65M of the payroll for signed guys like Springer, Ryu and Bassitt for this season, who are all above 33. Blue Jays also have the 7th highest payroll in baseball right now. Pretty much the entire Jays rotation were free agents or were acquired via trade- Gausman, Bassitt, Kikuchi, Ryu, and Berrios who they traded and then extended. How much money is tied up to all of those arms? Manoah is really their only homegrown arm.

 

How is the Jays farm system currently? It looks pretty bare to me so I don't understand how you can criticize AA for stripping down the Jays organizational depth while he was here, where you give Atkins a free pass. Unless Atkins pulls off some magic, things don't look that promising for the Jays after 2025.

 

Come on man, I'm sure you can understand the difference between supplementing your own team with free agents vs spending real prospect capital on trading for expensive veterans on the second year of their free agent contracts. When you sign a free agent there is an expected decline in production over the course of the deal. The Blue Jays did not get to enjoy this first year as it had already passed but they still had the privilege of paying full freight for the rest of these years.

 

The organisational depth at the moment is dramatically better than what was left after AA decided to move on.

[hanton]

I don’t ever recall a baseball player trying to sit out for a contract issue; a holdout. Guaranteed salaries and all.

Acura would be a prime candidate though. Not sure what kind of guy he is though.

 

he's missed a s*** ton of time due to injuries, no need for him to sit out for more money plus he's already signed plus players are takin a hometown discount to play in Atlanta because of AA because of the winning culture. Strider basically said it when he signed

[jaysblue]

Come on man, I'm sure you can understand the difference between supplementing your own team with free agents vs spending real prospect capital on trading for expensive veterans on the second year of their free agent contracts. When you sign a free agent there is an expected decline in production over the course of the deal. The Blue Jays did not get to enjoy this first year as it had already passed but they still had the privilege of paying full freight for the rest of these years.

 

The organisational depth at the moment is dramatically better than what was left after AA decided to move on.

 

Yeah and I wasn't a fan of AA when he did the Marlins deal, was one of his mistakes will admit that and call him out. I understand some of the logic - tough to lure big name FAs to Toronto at the time and the Marlins after going on a huge spending spree wanted to blow it up after a year. AA probably saw an opportunity. As well, its not like any of those prospects or players moved amounted to anything much.

 

The organizational depth on this team right now is awful lol. Again its crazy how you're such an apologist for this front office.

 

This should trigger you and your other homers: AA was a better GM and baseball mind during his time in Toronto than Atkins has been.

[glory]

If what I’m seeing on social media about Wander Franco is true, then the Rays are going to be looking for a new SS.

[Jonn]

If what I’m seeing on social media about Wander Franco is true, then the Rays are going to be looking for a new SS.

 

When I saw 14 my jaw dropped. Like that's f***ed...

[Spanky__99]

If what I’m seeing on social media about Wander Franco is true, then the Rays are going to be looking for a new SS.

 

Ruh-Roh...

[Carlos Danger]

If what I’m seeing on social media about Wander Franco is true, then the Rays are going to be looking for a new SS.

 

What’s going on?? I saw him go on the trade block in a Fantasy league I am in..

[BTS]

What’s going on?? I saw him go on the trade block in a Fantasy league I am in..

 

He possibly dated a 14-year old when he was 22.

[BTS]

Probably time for a new av

[connorp]

Depends what country. Lots of 14yo legal countries. Not majority but not rare.

[Carlos Danger]

He possibly dated a 14-year old when he was 22.

 

So this is a past allegation? Nothing that just occurred? Was he held out of today’s game due to that?

[Jonn]

Depends what country. Lots of 14yo legal countries. Not majority but not rare.

 

Dominican is 18. So it doesn't apply here. Canada is 16 for reference. But most countries are 18.

[BTS]

So this is a past allegation? Nothing that just occurred? Was he held out of today’s game due to that?

 

Well, he’s 22 now. So it’s not distant past.