General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Solaxys]

Dan Shulman had some pretty cool insights on the McCowan Podcast:

 

1. Its tricky right now. Yes, they should have fixed the bullpen issue and starting depth already even though the trade deadline is weeks away and things don't heat up until the end. At the same time, if Atkins calls any GM right now, they know he is desperate and so they'll ask for an exorbitant amount of prospects. If Atkins says no or try to haggle, they'll put the phone down and wait for Atkins to call back. It is not an enviable position to be in at the moment despite the glaring need, and you can't expect to get enough wins for playoffs if you keep delaying the fixing until the next offday or until after ASB.

 

2. Yankees have the ability to overspend to fix their mistakes, are the Jays considering that with Kikuchi? They did it with Roark but there's so much money owed to Kikuchi that they'll look at other options first. Also, consider that Kikuchi is a client of Boras and do they really want to alienate/piss off the most powerful agent in the world?

[BigCecil]

This "they've been here for 7 years" meme that popped up on the board is annoying.

 

When Shapiro took over the team was in a very awkward place as far as long term success goes. They took one crack at it and it didn't work so they rebuilt for a couple of years.

 

Then Covid hit and the team has been generally good and a winning team the whole time. The division has been it's usual competitive nightmare though

 

The trajectory is fine.

 

Don't overreact in the darkest moments. This could be the nadir of public opinion on the front office. For all we know next week they will bring in two good relievers and everything will be peachy.

 

And Montoyo has been pretty good this year let's be honest.

 

Fair enough. I don't think 7 years is that short of a runway in baseball factually, not that thats good or bad. Organizationally, coupled with resources, they are getting rope. I find the narrative the franchise was left completely on its back in 15/16 annoying. They had some building blocks with Vlad and although the team/org was rebuilding the fan base at least remained largely re-engaged coast to coast because of 15 & 16 runs & Vlad. We had stars like Delgado, Clemens and Doc and for 20 years fans tuned out in the wilderness. This excitement is revenue potential and made it easier to play in the top tier FA market and loosen the budget to extend Berrios etc. They had 2 years of JD etc...some chips were there.

 

I'm not a Montoyo fan, but he hasn't been much issue this year relatively.

 

Its easy to overreact. I think your hot take when we got eliminated last season by a game was one of the best of the year. That was a dark moment and lost opp. Spanky posts part of it every post lol. This has been a bleak stretch and sometimes a fan needs to vent. I'm interested to see what happens. ATL took off at the deadline in '21. Peachy is possible.

Edited July 10, 2022 by BigCecil

[Daniel Labude]

Baz vs the Reds gave up 7 runs in an inning. Baz in 7 years vs us will give up 4 runs total

[BigCecil]

Watching the SP for DET today vs CHISOX.

 

Time warp. Had to double take. Drew Hutchison through 3 scoreless for DET.

 

He brought Francisco Liriano, Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire in 16. Liriano became Teo.

[G-Snarls]

Watching the SP for DET today vs CHISOX.

 

Time warp. Had to double take. Drew Hutchison through 3 scoreless for DET.

 

He brought Francisco Liriano, Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire in 16. Liriano became Teo.

 

Happy for Hutch

 

Also happy we made that trade

[Spanky99]

Jays were 11 games above .500, and in 2nd place in the AL east, they'd just gone 4-1 vs the Red Sox and Rays.

 

Come backer off Gausman's foot.

 

Have gone 1-8 since that happened.

 

Oof... *face palms*

[G-Snarls]

Game starts in 40 mins

 

Anyone working on the GDT??

[G-Snarls]

Also who is starting today?!?!

[BlueJaysFever]

2 innings isn't much of a start

 

I'm sure he'll be on something like 50 or 60 pitch cap but that would still be more leash than he's been given. If it's as low as 40, not so much.

[Solaxys]

Also who is starting today?!?!

 

Castillo

[Daniel Labude]

I'm sure he'll be on something like 50 or 60 pitch cap but that would still be more leash than he's been given. If it's as low as 40, not so much.

 

He threw 40 pitches on Thursday. Probably capped at 30/40 max

[Dagagad]

Do you know what goes in to pitching development? How many years? The success rate? First of all, teams don't just decide to get better at pitching development. They don't turn coal into gold. Pitching development is completely dependent on the raw material scouting gives them (Alek Manoah!). The seeds are planted in scouting. Read scouting reports on pitchers before they enter milb, they all look to the same stuff: Velo, Delivery, Secondary pitches, Control, Command, Mound demeanor. Many teams have had the same scouts for years, some turn them over every 5 years or so. Across the league teams have been reducing their scouting departments over the last decade. In the Riccardi era the Jays had something like 35 scouts. When AA came aboard he bumped it to over 55 (he came out of scouting himself) and with Shapiro/Atkins they pared it down to about 50, choosing to go with a balance between statistical analysis and traditional scouting. The depth of scouting (# of scouts) doesn't make you better. Sometimes early scouting pans out and sometimes it doesn't. So every 6 years or so, a team may look like it has s***** scouting or poor scouting based on actualy results at the AA level and higher. If it was 2010 to 2016 you would be saying the Astros don't know how to scout pitching. They do. So do the Jays. Oh and you know who has one of the smallest scouting/development departments in mlb? The Astros, around 18 scouts currently. So when you say other teams "have done it in less time" I don't think you're taking in account all the variables. Do we need better arms? Yes, everyone does. Does our dearth of good arms in the pen doesn't mean we need to overhaul pitching development. No.

 

I think to be really good at it, you need a ton of synergy between scouting, analytics and development and you need to be good at all three.

 

There are indicators that we were never taking it that seriously. Like, for example, we brought over a front office from Cleveland who arguably were (and are judging from what is close to the majors in their farm) one of the best teams in the league at pitching dev. Their choice for pitching coach at the major league level was the same guy as before. Pete walker is a fantastic pitching coach but it seems super improbable that he would align perfectly philosophically with what the new front office wanted to do. Especially as they are coming from an ELITE pitch dev org. You really don’t want a guy with as much respect and clout as walker in there even if he is really good at his job if you want to overhaul the entire philosophy of the org. Was that ownership pressure? Did they mandate that they keep walker? Otherwise, I really don’t get that decision on a long term scale. Stuff like that has always made me doubt that we were aligned like we are supposed to be to be good at this.

 

In terms of time scale, you can see pretty quick turnarounds/improvements in other organizations. Like 3 or so years usually.

 

If the talent isn’t in the org, then that’s a front office failure. There are mitigating reasons… but still this is a zero sum game.

 

Let’s say it takes 4 years and we did overhaul this behind the scenes a year or two ago, then you still potentially wasted two/three years of the window. That’s not great.

 

I get that this is partially unfair because this is the AL east. But, that’s the division we are in. We can’t change that.

[Daniel Labude]

Just interesting....

 

Player A: .268 AVG, 29.4% K, 12.2% BB, .369 OBP, 24 HR

 

Player B: .269 AVG, 17.8% K, 10.1% BB, .350 OBP, 19 HR

 

Player A could win the MVP and is almost 8 years older

 

Player B is a complete disappointment to many lmao

[BlueJaysFever]

Player also probably has 4 bWar and probably a high .900's OPS and is probably Mike Trout? A great centre fielder and base runner. That's not a criticism of Vladdy but I mean it's Mike Trout man.

[Daniel Labude]

Player also probably has 4 bWar and probably a high .900's OPS and is probably Mike Trout? A great centre fielder and base runner. That's not a criticism of Vladdy but I mean it's Mike Trout man.

 

It was an offensive comparison showing just how little K% means if you are hitting for a solid avg and power, along with just how big a difference a few HRs and/extra base hits mean

[BlueJaysFever]

Oh. Well Mike Trout isn't an MVP candidate based solely on his plate production so that's probably what threw me off.

[Carlos Danger]

Orioles supposedly will be making Santander and Lopez available among others.. Santander switch hitter gets us a lefty bat.. Lopez a back end high leverage RP..

[Laika]

Lopez would be great but apparently has 2 more years of control after 2022 so he'll cost a lot

 

I'm not sure Santander really improves the team

[BigCecil]

Just heard Montoyo interview quote this morning: "It was a 1-6 road trip, but we played well."

 

Almost spit out my coffee. I don't know how you can square that circle. W's matter and more often than not reflect playing well.

[Jays333]

Just heard Montoyo interview quote this morning: "It was a 1-6 road trip, but we played well."

 

Almost spit out my coffee. I don't know how you can square that circle. W's matter and more often than not reflect playing well.

 

Probably told the whole team they played great. Hitting was awesome, bullpen was lights out. Baserunning on point. Sound like Charlie

[Brownie19]

Just heard Montoyo interview quote this morning: "It was a 1-6 road trip, but we played well."

 

Almost spit out my coffee. I don't know how you can square that circle. W's matter and more often than not reflect playing well.

 

Probably told the whole team they played great. Hitting was awesome, bullpen was lights out. Baserunning on point. Sound like Charlie

 

I understand that frustration - but what he tells the media v. what he tells the players could be 2 very different things. There's also something about being a leader where you don't get too high or too low. You don't sound the alarm, you calm the ship and find a way to turn it around. I'm sure there are some who think they need that old school manager who's breaking bats in the clubhouse and ripping the guys a new ******* - but I believe studies will show that's counterproductive and positive reinforcement actually works better.

 

Although - perhaps it's regular/daily negativity that doesn't work. Maybe we need to send Billy Beane in the clubhouse to set whomever our version of Jeremy Giambi is straight?

[Laika]

I understand that frustration - but what he tells the media v. what he tells the players could be 2 very different things. There's also something about being a leader where you don't get too high or too low. You don't sound the alarm, you calm the ship and find a way to turn it around. I'm sure there are some who think they need that old school manager who's breaking bats in the clubhouse and ripping the guys a new ******* - but I believe studies will show that's counterproductive and positive reinforcement actually works better.

 

Although - perhaps it's regular/daily negativity that doesn't work. Maybe we need to send Billy Beane in the clubhouse to set whomever our version of Jeremy Giambi is straight?

 

LOL I wonder who the Blue Jays clubhouse cancer would be, if there is one.

[Terminator]

Just heard Montoyo interview quote this morning: "It was a 1-6 road trip, but we played well."

 

Almost spit out my coffee. I don't know how you can square that circle. W's matter and more often than not reflect playing well.

 

LOL the only thing being played well this past week was Buntoyo’s bongos when he should have been reading scouting reports instead

[BigCecil]

I understand that frustration - but what he tells the media v. what he tells the players could be 2 very different things. There's also something about being a leader where you don't get too high or too low. You don't sound the alarm, you calm the ship and find a way to turn it around. I'm sure there are some who think they need that old school manager who's breaking bats in the clubhouse and ripping the guys a new ******* - but I believe studies will show that's counterproductive and positive reinforcement actually works better.

 

Although - perhaps it's regular/daily negativity that doesn't work. Maybe we need to send Billy Beane in the clubhouse to set whomever our version of Jeremy Giambi is straight?

 

I know what a leader is and has to do. And I realize public vs behind closed doors two different things. I've been around a few moons.

 

But c'mon. There is a way to face reality publicly that threads that needle. I'm not saying lambast your team. "Everyone in that room knows we can be better, and play better. We are going to take this off day to regroup and refocus and go for the W tomorrow one win at a time". Whatever....lots you can say without the Baghdad Bob routine. What he said costs credibility.

 

Who was it that wrote "the ship in sinking" in Gibby's first tenure? I forget his name. speaking of possible cancer intrigue. Then there was Ted Lilly.

[havok24]

I know what a leader is and has to do. And I realize public vs behind closed doors two different things. I've been around a few moons.

 

But c'mon. There is a way to face reality publicly that threads that needle. I'm not saying lambast your team. "Everyone in that room knows we can be better, and play better. We are going to take this off day to regroup and refocus and go for the W tomorrow one win at a time". Whatever....lots you can say without the Baghdad Bob routine. What he said costs credibility.

 

Who was it that wrote "the ship in sinking" in Gibby's first tenure? I forget his name. speaking of possible cancer intrigue. Then there was Ted Lilly.

 

That would be the legendary Blue Jays great Shea Hillenbrand of course!

[Laika]

The 2005 and 2006 Blue Jays has some real *******s.

 

Rios, Hillenbrand, Zaun, to some extent Towers, Lilly, Burnett, and Halladay. I'm sure more.

 

salty f***ing team

[Terminator]

John Gibbons deserves a Cross of Valour for managing the 2015 team as well as he did.

 

Donaldson

Reyes/Tulowitzki

Pillar

Bautista

Danny Valencia

Stroman

Osuna

Sanchez

among others

[BigCecil]

John Gibbons deserves a Cross of Valour for managing the 2015 team as well as he did.

 

Donaldson

Reyes/Tulowitzki

Pillar

Bautista

Danny Valencia

Stroman

Osuna

Sanchez

among others

 

Yep. 100%. Friend of mine was a corp COO in TOR at the time and they bought a lot of Jays sponsorship etc. As result AA had to have obligatory lunches with him. AA point blank told him they got rid of Valencia and kept Collabello that year because Valencia was a complete ******* and cancer, even if he raked LHP. Said he was only about himself and only talking about his deal etc when they were trying to win a division. He also had lunch with Jose and others and got some good stuff. Always loved that gossip.

[Terminator]

Yep. 100%. Friend of mine was a corp COO in TOR at the time and they bought a lot of Jays sponsorship etc. As result AA had to have obligatory lunches with him. AA point blank told him they got rid of Valencia and kept Collabello that year because Valencia was a complete ******* and cancer, even if he raked LHP. Said he was only about himself and only talking about his deal etc when they were trying to win a division. He also had lunch with Jose and others and got some good stuff. Always loved that gossip.

 

Valencia always seemed like a nut job. He'd sit at the very end of the dugout near the stairs and would be maniacally yelling/laughing the whole game. Seemed like the rest of the team made a point of it to ignore him. Dude was traded 5 times in his 9 year career.

[Brownie19]

I know what a leader is and has to do. And I realize public vs behind closed doors two different things. I've been around a few moons.

 

But c'mon. There is a way to face reality publicly that threads that needle. I'm not saying lambast your team. "Everyone in that room knows we can be better, and play better. We are going to take this off day to regroup and refocus and go for the W tomorrow one win at a time". Whatever....lots you can say without the Baghdad Bob routine. What he said costs credibility.

 

Who was it that wrote "the ship in sinking" in Gibby's first tenure? I forget his name. speaking of possible cancer intrigue. Then there was Ted Lilly.

 

That's fair. But honestly I don't give a f*** what any manager says to the media. It's all complete and utter ********. It's like IG filters man - it's all fake and meaningless. IMO, he shouldn't gain or lose credibility for the quality of the made up BS he says in an interview.