General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Dagagad]

This is pretty dumb.

 

You have some valid complaints about the current roster construction / organizational depth but you are taking them way too far.

 

Deep breaths.

 

This is a good situation. Most organizations would kill for our major league talent. We will be good for a decent chunk of time and then bad. I’m happy with that.

 

The supposition that 7 years is enough time to tell if we are one of the elite teams at pitching dev or evaluation is just factual. You can tell in 7 years. It doesn’t matter how long we were contending for or how bad the farm was or whatever. 7 years is enough time.

 

Baltimore are an unknown quantity. They’ve had three years. They also came from a good pitching dev org.

 

The logical choice is to give them the benefit of the doubt and to say we are probably not good at it. I’m not sure how anyone could look at this and see it another way without some really blue tinted glasses on.

 

Also, ill take ‘this is pretty dumb’ and take it to mean ‘ we didn’t pull any pitching out of a hat when we were bad’.

 

It’s possible things are changing behind the scenes. Maybe the guys in the low minors are an indicator that we have got better at this. Maybe not. They are dudes in the low minors, they are pitching prospects and it’s been 7 years.

[Dagagad]

I find the trashing of the FO to be a joke. So the Jays are currently in a bit of a funk. Come playoff time things might be different.

 

When this season started everyone was excited about the team the FO put together, FFS.

 

I’ve been skeptical of their ability to put together pitching depth or a bullpen for years.

[RustyTrombone]

Right? lol.

 

Anyway: https://www.mlb.com/all-star/ballot?affiliateId=asb-mediawall-mlb-2022

 

VOTE FOOLS.

 

I voted Vladdy, Altuve, Ramirez, Anderson, Springer, Trout, Kirk, Alvarez for the AL and Goldy, Jazz, Machado, Dansby, Contreras, Betts, Joc, and Harper even though hes hurt.

[Dagagad]

Ya fair enough. I just hate the pitchers we come up with. The only one that I saw and I was like, "jesus we made this guy in a lab" was when Merryweather got called up in 2020. Like pitch shape, velocity, tunnels, repertoire wise. The whole banana peel arsenal that Manoah kinda has (but he had that in college). Sweeping sliders like the dodgers. Seam shifted wake. All that s***. I want the guys built in a lab. Where is our god damn lab.

 

We trade for dudes like Kay who has an absolute barrel finder fastball, just the shape of it is tailor f***ing made for a RHB barrel, and I'm just like wtf do you see in this guy, he clearly has no chance. I can't help but think, wait, are the Jays the dumb ones?

 

This is it in a nutshell lol when it comes to our bullpen. I look at some teams and you can just see that they made this guy. We don’t have that.

 

It’s fine margins but we don’t have it.

[Benito]

I find the trashing of the FO to be a joke. So the Jays are currently in a bit of a funk. Come playoff time things might be different.

 

When this season started everyone was excited about the team the FO put together, FFS.

 

This. No question the team is not performing well recently, but this team has also shown it has the talent to click and go on a run. Just have to hope the timing aligns with the playoffs. They do have winning records this season again Houston and Boston. Two of the teams they could potentially face in the playoffs. Will they perform well then? Who knows. But this recent notion that the Jays can't compete with all these top teams is silly, when they've shown they can and have.

[Benito]

I’ve been skeptical of their ability to put together pitching depth or a bullpen for years.

 

Yes. We know. You've been repeating it seemingly every day. Rays, Astros, Yanks FO are great. Jays suck in comparison. New day, same story.

[Dagagad]

Yes. We know. You've been repeating it seemingly every day. Rays, Astros, Yanks FO are great. Jays suck in comparison. New day, same story.

 

Oh yea, we definitely suck at pitching compared to them. Correct.

 

I like our hitting philosophy. Betting on hit tool works imo.

[Solaxys]

Where is our god damn lab.

 

It just got built last year lol - they spent 100M dollars, and it took 2 yrs to build (so thing has been in plans since Atkins came into play).

[Spanky99]

Yes. We know. You've been repeating it seemingly every day. Rays, Astros, Yanks FO are great. Jays suck in comparison. New day, same story.

 

It's annoying, right?

[Benito]

Oh yea, we definitely suck at pitching compared to them. Correct.

 

I like our hitting philosophy. Betting on hit tool works imo.

 

Yes. And I can't wait for you to tell us again tomorrow.

[Dagagad]

Yes. And I can't wait for you to tell us again tomorrow.

 

You should balance it out with more vague nonsense about how we just need to go on a run and we have winning records against certain teams like that f***ing matters. Some brain dead stuff like that would be a good bit of balance.

[RustyTrombone]

I think a big problem with our lack of pitching development was related to old facility in Dunedin just not having that high tech pitching lab/equipment. And now that we can finally utilize our new facility down there properly for the first time this year there should be no surprise that we have immediately seen a bunch of our pitching prospects explode this year. Personally I'm extremely optimistic about our future pitching staff. Just not the current one lol. Guys like Tiedemann, Zulu, Frasso, Santos have all taken massive steps forward which I think we can attribute to the new facility. There should be a stable supply of pitching coming now hopefully starting with those guys.

[Benito]

You should balance it out with more vague nonsense about how we just need to go on a run and we have winning records against certain teams like that f***ing matters. Some brain dead stuff like that would be a good bit of balance.

 

Ok. lol

[Dagagad]

Ok. lol

 

A career in sports talk radio awaits! Have at it.

 

I’m interested in reading more about the pitching facility. Not sure how that effected just identifying the right guys to bet on in the first few years of this regime but who knows.

[RustyTrombone]

A career in sports talk radio awaits! Have at it.

 

I’m interested in reading more about the pitching facility. Not sure how that effected just identifying the right guys to bet on in the first few years of this regime but who knows.

 

The pitching facility should be more about extracting 100% out of each guy. Using motion sensing cameras, high speed spin tracking cameras, 3d body tracking and bio mechanics and all that super nerd stuff. We've already seen massive velo jumps from Tiedemann and Frasso so far.

[Solaxys]

You should balance it out with more vague nonsense about how we just need to go on a run and we have winning records against certain teams like that f***ing matters. Some brain dead stuff like that would be a good bit of balance.

 

That was rude.

You are not adding any valuable discussion with this seven-year rhetoric when you repeat it verbatim every day.

You are looking for confirmation bias and so aggressively so that its scary.

 

While the results haven't been as great (yet), you are comparing different FOs that bring different strengths and weaknesses.

We are trying to get there and that's Atkins' goal - to have a robust pipeline, and yes I agree he hasn't achieved that, but you can't also say that "oh he just doesn't care, just a baddie, sitting on his laurels getting paid to do nothing." We built a pitching facility to develop pitchers - Frasso, Tiedemann, Zulueta are all looking impressive. We have some expectations to build Van Eyk, Robberse, Kloff, Danner. We have some studs since 2016 in Castillo, Hernandez. Took some risks in Lawrence and Gage, that are paying off. Banda is a risk too but have you checked his savant, dude has some elite metrics. Some with very interesting peripherals in Dallas, Palmer, Murray, Juenger that need tapping into.

There is so much impact potential in our A/A+/AA. Just cause its not apparent depth that can be brought up to the majors right this very moment doesn't mean we are doing nothing.

 

Yankees FO, despite being perennial contenders and for all the money they spent, haven't won WS in 13 years.

They waste exorbitant amount of money on contracts (including pitchers) that smart scouting would net for less, in every area especially pitching - just look at Chapman, look at Cole

Opting for high-injury candidates in every slot whose kit can allow them to abuse their stadium

Going into this season, no one thought their starting roster was going to be this good having career years from three pitchers - it was actually their biggest issue, internally (not projections/odds) - it was their biggest point of uncertainty. They spend money and expect money to win the games. Its only sustained because their market sustains it. Their FO would never be able to function in a mid market.

 

Astros FO have developed good starting pitching, sure, and they have one more in Brown coming and that's it. Their organizational depth is shot, their farm is one of the worst in the game.

They tanked 100-loss seasons to draft a lot of bonafide talent (readymade) and after this competitive window wraps up, they have nothing left. They are spending as much as the Jays in payroll, and they can't sustain buying all the FAs to replace their all-star bats soon enough.

 

Rays FO have great, probably unparalleled scouting - and they need it considering they have one of the lowest payrolls available with their terrible market. They shoot for high-risk, high-injury targets and you are looking at the evidence this year of what happens when it crumbles. They are not that good this year - hell, when their catching depth starts and ends at f***ing Zunino, what are you even doing. We don't have the depth for 5-games in 4-days, but in a 5-game postseason series, they are not that scary - all their starting pitchers are hittable except McClanahan. Their offensive depth is horrible, they have no scouting there, they have no legit prospects there, and when some of these arb hearings rack up for them, they'll have to shed salary leaving them vulnerable. If you like the Rays pitching pipeline so much, you should consider being a fan of the Rays. But they have a s*** ton of issues that you can ask their fanbase that they hate.

[Dagagad]

If this is the thing they’ve been waiting for and we are going to be one of the elite teams at this going forward… I would love to be wrong about it.

 

Ok, I’ll call an end to bitching about our pitching dev until next offseason.

 

Exceptions are once per bullpen implosion.

[Dagagad]

That was rude.

You are not adding any valuable discussion with this seven-year rhetoric when you repeat it verbatim every day.

You are looking for confirmation bias and so aggressively so that its scary.

 

While the results haven't been as great (yet), you are comparing different FOs that bring different strengths and weaknesses.

 

Yankees FO, despite being perennial contenders and for all the money they spent, haven't won WS in 13 years.

They waste exorbitant amount of money on contracts (including pitchers) that smart scouting would net for less, in every area especially pitching - just look at Chapman, look at Cole

Opting for high-injury candidates in every slot whose kit can allow them to abuse their stadium

Going into this season, no one thought their starting roster was going to be this good having career years from three pitchers - it was actually their biggest issue, internally (not projections/odds) - it was their biggest point of uncertainty. They spend money and expect money to win the games. Its only sustained because their market sustains it. Their FO would never be able to function in a low-end market.

 

Astros FO have developed good starting pitching, sure, and they have one more in Brown coming and that's it. Their organizational depth is shot, their farm is one of the worst in the game.

They tanked 100-loss seasons to draft a lot of bonafide talent (readymade) and after this competitive window wraps up, they have nothing left. They are spending as much as the Jays in payroll, and they can't sustain buying all the FAs to replace their all-star bats soon enough.

 

Rays FO have great, probably unparalleled scouting - and they need it considering they have one of the lowest payrolls available with their terrible market. They shoot for high-risk, high-injury targets and you are looking at the evidence this year of what happens when it crumbles. They are not that good this year - hell, when their catching depth starts and ends at f***ing Zunino, what are you even doing. We don't have the depth for 5-games in 4-days, but in a 5-game postseason series, they are not that scary - all their starting pitchers are hittable except McClanahan. Their offensive depth is horrible, they have no scouting there, they have no legit prospects there, and when some of these arb hearings rack up for them, they'll have to shed salary leaving them vulnerable. If you like the Rays pitching pipeline so much, you should consider being a fan of the Rays. But they have a s*** ton of issues that you can ask their fanbase that they hate.

 

Sorry, I didnt see this before my previous post.

 

Someone just called me dumb a few comments ago. Why aren’t you caping for me?

 

The Yankees not winning a World Series is irrelevant. Winning the World Series is luck. Anyone who judges any team on World Series wins is doing it wrong. They have tons of money and they use and generally well.

 

The astros have had quite a few unheralded prospects become major league contributors. I’m not counting out their pitching dev because they don’t have anyone heralded in the high minors. I’ll believe in the demise of the astros when it happens because they replaced their first wave of talent very well so far.

 

Their current homegrown starters had a final prospect rating of 50FV, 45+FV, 45FV, and 40FV. They have guys like that in their farm right now.

 

The Rays are incredibly injured this year and are still in it. That’s an achievement. I bake in their complete lack of funds when I evaluate how well they are doing. Also, Baz will be an absolute stud.

 

All three of those teams have track record when it comes to developing pitching. I have no idea how much of a homer you would have to be to hold your opinion on this.

[Solaxys]

Sorry, I didnt see this before my previous post.

 

Someone just called me dumb a few comments ago. Why aren’t you caping for me?[/Quote]

 

No one called you dumb.

 

All three of those teams have track record when it comes to developing pitching. I have no idea how much of a homer you would have to be to hold your opinion on this.

 

What are you even talking about?

Where did I say "we have comparable pitching development" to Yankees/Astros/Rays? We are definitely trying based on what I am seeing in the minors, its just not at AAA yet (and thus ready to make an impact at majors).

 

My opinion is simple - stop comparing FOs when we are dealing with different markets. Especially considering, you have no public domain data available as to how these different markets affect getting assets. It is fair to say our FO hasn't done it all, but just as well, they have done some pretty f***ing relevant things. Every FO has their issues, and feel free to go ask why the Rays fanbase hate their FO since you drool of their pitching development here every day.

 

I am not pro-Atkins, but I definitely haven't given up on this FO yet. Considering what AA left Atkins with and that they had to invest money in infrastructure over the last few years, I think they deserve more time.

 

Furthermore, what do you exactly want by orating the same s*** every single day, on the clock, every time we lose?

If you are so hellbent on Atkins being terrible, then lets go dude - get a f***ing riot going at Rogers Centre to get him fired.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Solaxys

[Dagagad]

No one called you dumb.

 

 

 

What are you even talking about?

Where did I say "we have comparable pitching development" to Yankees/Astros/Rays?

My opinion is simple (if you can take off your biased glasses for a second and read) - stop comparing FOs when we are dealing with different markets. It is fair to say our FO hasn't done it all, but just as well, they have done some pretty f***ing relevant things. Every FO has their issues, and feel free to go ask why the Rays fanbase hate their FO since you drool of their pitching development here every day.

 

Furthermore, what do you exactly want by orating the same s*** every single day, on the clock, every time we lose?

If you are so hellbent on Atkins being terrible, then lets go dude - get a f***ing riot going at Rogers Centre to get him fired.

 

Edit; never mind, you are right. Im being overly aggressive and repeating myself.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Dagagad

[BigCecil]

Really the only weakness coming into the season was pitching depth, but there was an expectation in season additions would be made, which is still likely. I think there was an expectation Pearson would be a contributor, also.

 

What has happened so far is essentially statistical noise. More players are underperforming projections than are not. Which in theory at least, mean the 2nd half will yield better results.

 

Clearly there is significant under performance but it would have been risky for the FO to bet on 160 games each and 12+ WAR repeat from Bo & Vlad or Manoah not suffering some sophomore issues, for example. Springer? Who knows what he will give you.

 

Who woulda thunk only Kirk, Espy and now even Biggio would be only over performers from '21 so far?

Edited July 5, 2022 by BigCecil

[Stangstag]

It's annoying, right?

 

Extremely. He’s on a damn crusade against the front office. Came out of nowhere like a week ago and been spouting the same s*** every day

[BigCecil]

Right? lol.

 

Anyway: https://www.mlb.com/all-star/ballot?affiliateId=asb-mediawall-mlb-2022

 

VOTE FOOLS.

 

thanks for the nudge. i did. i never vote in this but "Cap'tain I'm givin' it all she's got" with Kirk. For some reason so want to see him get rewarded and start.

[Spanky99]

Extremely. He’s on a damn crusade against the front office. Came out of nowhere like a week ago and been spouting the same s*** every day

 

He's a good poster, just too much rinse and repeat.

[Dagagad]

Extremely. He’s on a damn crusade against the front office. Came out of nowhere like a week ago and been spouting the same s*** every day

 

You’ve got a point. I’ve got into a bit of a loop. I’m also way too argumentative. I’ll back off for a while and just post stuff I read about jays minor leaguers I hear on fantasy podcasts. That’s a better lane lol.

[Spanky99]

You’ve got a point. I’ve got into a bit of a loop. I’m also way too argumentative. I’ll back off for a while and just post stuff I read about jays minor leaguers I hear on fantasy podcasts. That’s a better lane lol.

 

Hey man, that's why we're here to post, don't sweat it. lol

[Dagagad]

Hey man, that's why we're here to post, don't sweat it. lol

 

Yea, but I’m being a drag. Moving on.

[Olerud363]

If this is the thing theyÂ’ve been waiting for and we are going to be one of the elite teams at this going forwardÂ… I would love to be wrong about it.

 

Ok, IÂ’ll call an end to bitching about our pitching dev until next offseason.

 

Exceptions are once per bullpen implosion.

 

You can do it too on Berrios/Kikuchi/Stripling or Ryu replacement starting pitching implosions. If it's 6-1 in the 3rd because of a poor outing by our 70 million dollar rotation please rant.

[Dagagad]

You can do it too on Berrios/Kikuchi/Stripling or Ryu replacement starting pitching implosions. If it's 6-1 in the 3rd because of a poor outing by our 70 million dollar rotation please rant.

 

I have to stay away from that lol. That’s a gateway drug lol.

[Stangstag]

You’ve got a point. I’ve got into a bit of a loop. I’m also way too argumentative. I’ll back off for a while and just post stuff I read about jays minor leaguers I hear on fantasy podcasts. That’s a better lane lol.

 

Its generally fine, I just think most of us don’t want to hear about the potential flaws in the front office daily after every loss. The losses are bad enough, but the major league roster is still good and the argument of pitching development could completely flip in the next year or so depending on how the guys in low minors progress.

 

The pitching dev conversation probably makes sense when we see what kinda moves/prospects we give up at the deadline. If they start overpaying and giving up important guys like Moreno/Groshans/Martinez for pitching again then I think it makes sense to revisit the conversation