General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Jimcanuck]

Those guys aren’t really available though. Teams don’t typically trade pitchers like that. Especially if they already establishing themselves as that kind of pitcher.

 

Sure they do. Miami is a position to do so, and are probably in active trade discussions.

[Dagagad]

Depends on years of control. A current 3/4 starter with 5 years of control (essentially a rookie that is performing, with potential to become a #2 or better) would be fine for Moreno.

 

I wouldn’t do that deal unless they had insane stuff. A top ten position player prospect is worth more than that. If they had the kind of stuff that could become a number 2 starter then no one is trading them.

[Jonn]

Sure they do. Miami is a position to do so, and are probably in active trade discussions.

 

Who on Miami are you thinking your getting for just Moreno? Because its certainly not going to be Alcantara or Lopez.

[Jimcanuck]

Who on Miami are you thinking your getting for just Moreno? Because its certainly not going to be Alcantara or Lopez.

 

I'm not thinking anyone. As I mentioned, I trust Shatkins to make the right deals.

 

All I'm saying is it makes sense to move one of our THREE MLB starter quality catchers for pitching, now that Ryu is down and Jays have essentially ZERO SP depth.

[Jonn]

I'm not thinking anyone. As I mentioned, I trust Shatkins to make the right deals.

 

All I'm saying is it makes sense to move one of our THREE MLB starter quality catchers for pitching, now that Ryu is down and Jays have essentially ZERO SP depth.

 

Well you’re not getting an impact starter with control for Jansen or Kirk. You’re looking at more of a veteran with less control for those 2.

 

You could get one for Moreno potentially apart of a bigger package.

 

But this isn’t MLB The Show. You don’t see contending teams trade off their Major League Roster to add pieces typically. Especially your current Starting Catcher because you have depth at a position.

[max silver]

Depends on years of control. A current 3/4 starter with 5 years of control (essentially a rookie that is performing, with potential to become a #2 or better) would be fine for Moreno.

 

Jesus man I'm glad you aren't the Jays general manager. Moreno is a Bo Bichette level prospect, you don't trade guys like this more mid/back of the rotation starters based on potential.

[Jimcanuck]

Well let's see how Shatkins handles this, and who is closest to being right.

[Jimcanuck]

Jesus man I'm glad you aren't the Jays general manager. Moreno is a Bo Bichette level prospect, you don't trade guys like this more mid/back of the rotation starters based on potential.

 

You are misunderstanding me.

[Jonn]

Well let's see how Shatkins handles this, and who is closest to being right.

 

It’s not about being right it’s about being realistic and what ultimately becomes available on the market.

[Jimcanuck]

It’s not about being right it’s about being realistic and what ultimately becomes available on the market.

 

That goes without saying.

[gruber92]

Three base hits the other way. Maybe pitch him hard and in more often?

[keggy]

Trading your all star calibre starting catchers midseason in a pennant race is not a smart idea at all. And we don't have anywhere near the hitting depth to trade away Kirk's DH ABs.

 

You don't trade an MLB ready top 10 prospect unless you get back a true ace. We're one or two bad breaks away from giving Collins and Tiedman regular ABs.

 

We lost our fifth best starter, it's not time to panic. Use lower level prospects to shore up the bullpen, rotation, and an outfielder that can hit better than Tapia.

[JFD]

Jesus man I'm glad you aren't the Jays general manager. Moreno is a Bo Bichette level prospect, you don't trade guys like this more mid/back of the rotation starters based on potential.

 

Maybe he's Jim Benning

[Jimcanuck]

Trading your all star calibre starting catchers midseason in a pennant race is not a smart idea at all. And we don't have anywhere near the hitting depth to trade away Kirk's DH ABs.

 

You don't trade an MLB ready top 10 prospect unless you get back a true ace. We're one or two bad breaks away from giving Collins and Tiedman regular ABs.

 

We lost our fifth best starter, it's not time to panic. Use lower level prospects to shore up the bullpen, rotation, and an outfielder that can hit better than Tapia.

 

Gimme some names for the bullpen and rotation. Also, no one is panicking.

 

As I said, no way do the Jays go into 2023 with 3 starting calibre catchers. Why wait til the off season to make moves when there are now needs?

[max silver]

Gimme some names for the bullpen and rotation. Also, no one is panicking.

 

As I said, no way do the Jays go into 2023 with 3 starting calibre catchers. Why wait til the off season to make moves when there are now needs?

 

Having Moreno available as depth in case of injury to either Kirk or Jansen is a good thing. Trading away one of the three mid-season would be unnecessarily risky as we have no way to know whether Moreno hits the ground running or whether he is more of the typical prospect who faces a tough initial adjustment period. If the more likely latter scenario raises it's head you've weakened the offence greatly and suddenly have no minor league depth to call up in case of emergency.

[JFD]

Get to work Atkins

[Jimcanuck]

Having Moreno available as depth in case of injury to either Kirk or Jansen is a good thing. Trading away one of the three mid-season would be unnecessarily risky as we have no way to know whether Moreno hits the ground running or whether he is more of the typical prospect who faces a tough initial adjustment period. If the more likely latter scenario raises it's head you've weakened the offence greatly and suddenly have no minor league depth to call up in case of emergency.

 

So you prefer to stand pat and do nothing and potentially miss the playoffs due to a pitching weakness that is pretty apparent, in case one of the catchers get hurt? Bad logic.

[Eat My Shatkins]

So you prefer to stand pat and do nothing and potentially miss the playoffs due to a pitching weakness that is pretty apparent, in case one of the catchers get hurt? Bad logic.

 

There is no pitching weakness.

 

What are you talking about?

 

I mean, I guess the bullpen is a little thin, but again....you're not trading Kirk/Jansen/Moreno to shore up the f***ing bullpen

[Eat My Shatkins]

Jays AL pitching rankings:

 

Pitching fWAR - 3rd

Pitching ERA - 7th

Pitching FIP - 3rd

Pitching xFIP - 3rd

 

Starter fWAR - 2nd

Starter ERA - 5th

Starter FIP - 2nd

Starter xFIP - 3rd

 

Reliever fWAR - 9th

Reliever ERA - 10th

Reliever FIP - 11th

Reliever xFIP - 5th

 

 

Pitching overall, is solid

Starting pitching is stellar, if you want to upgrade the depth sure, but not going to cost you key pieces off your roster or high ranked prospects to accomplish

Relievers could use an upgrade, but that likely comes from within, or at a relatively cheap cost....either way it's not Jansen/Kirk/Moreno you're using to upgrade it

[connorp]

Jays AL pitching rankings:

 

Pitching fWAR - 3rd

Pitching ERA - 7th

Pitching FIP - 3rd

Pitching xFIP - 3rd

 

Starter fWAR - 2nd

Starter ERA - 5th

Starter FIP - 2nd

Starter xFIP - 3rd

 

Reliever fWAR - 9th

Reliever ERA - 10th

Reliever FIP - 11th

Reliever xFIP - 5th

 

 

Pitching overall, is solid

Starting pitching is stellar, if you want to upgrade the depth sure, but not going to cost you key pieces off your roster or high ranked prospects to accomplish

Relievers could use an upgrade, but that likely comes from within, or at a relatively cheap cost....either way it's not Jansen/Kirk/Moreno you're using to upgrade it

 

You can’t just say “SP WAR” and gloss over how much 1/2 is contributing. Youd have to frame it on what Jays are getting from 3/4 vs other teams in the context of this discussion

[Jimcanuck]

Losing Ryu creates a need, for which there is no internal fill.

 

Trading from a position of strength to get a controllable MLB SP, along with a high leverage reliever, does 3 things:

 

- moves Stripling back to pen where he is optimal as a swingman

- adds a controllable SP, an area where the Jays are relatively weak (Tiedeman and a few others notwithstanding)

- adds the high leverage reliever they need to avoid using the silver fox or other crap in close games

 

Again, it would make no sense for the Jays to go into 2023 with 3 MLB starting calibre catchers in Jansen, Kirk, and Moreno on the 40 man, optimally you want 2 of them, and some AAAA depth guy in Buffalo.

[Spanky99]

Three base hits the other way. Maybe pitch him hard and in more often?

 

Wrong thread, dumbass.

[Stangstag]

Wrong thread, dumbass.

 

Harsh

[Spanky99]

You can’t just say “SP WAR” and gloss over how much 1/2 is contributing. Youd have to frame it on what Jays are getting from 3/4 vs other teams in the context of this discussion

 

lol

[connorp]

lol

 

Aw Spanky. Too hard to follow?

[connorp]

lol

 

Aw Spanky. Too hard to follow? Critical thinking is a tough business

[Laika]

Jansen - to trade him would end up being a great sell high or terrible timing if this is a star breaking out

 

Kirk - I still don't think people understand how good he is as a hitter. This is probably a 4+ win player that you can never get enough value for in trades because of how he looks.

 

Moreno - prospects of his caliber are rarely traded. But catching prospects are tough man. Remember all of the catching prospect corpses in this organization's history?

 

I think I'd be cool with trading Moreno for the best MLB impact return.

[max silver]

So you prefer to stand pat and do nothing and potentially miss the playoffs due to a pitching weakness that is pretty apparent, in case one of the catchers get hurt? Bad logic.

 

The team has 4 very good starters already. Adding a back of the rotation starter is not going to necessitate panicking and shipping out one of the Jays 3 catchers. This can easily wait until the offseason as the Jays have a plethora of good players in the minor league system they can utilise in trades.

[Dagagad]

To add something concrete to the trade discussions. These are the teams that probably consider themselves contenders and aren’t getting much from the catcher position. I eliminated teams in our division and San Diego/SF because they have top prospects they wouldn’t want to block. I added Colorado because they are delusional.

 

Assuming Jansen would only be attractive to a contender as he only has 2 years of control after this one. This is the list:

 

- Guardians

- Mets

- Marlins

- White Sox

- Astros

- Rockies

- Cardinals

 

The Mets are borderline as they signed McCann to a pretty good deal and they don’t really need to get better.

 

Anyway, those are the teams. Any other teams you think would be interested? What would be an acceptable return from those teams in season for Jansen?

 

Kirks market would obviously be way bigger because he has 4 years of control but his price would also be pretty big.

 

Moreno’s market would be non contenders obviously. I personally would only consider Moreno in an absolute blockbuster (Soto?).

[Jimcanuck]

The team has 4 very good starters already. Adding a back of the rotation starter is not going to necessitate panicking and shipping out one of the Jays 3 catchers. This can easily wait until the offseason as the Jays have a plethora of good players in the minor league system they can utilise in trades.

 

Why would a contending team wait for the offseason to trade prospects?