[Rosenthal] - Jays still going after Ramirez to play 2B?

[Daniel Labude]

[Deadpool]

Consider me against trading for Ramirez unless it's a stupid low cost in prospect capital. We don't need to score 15 runs every game, we have a very good rotation and a passable pen, and I would still like to have some flexibility 3 years from now (financially and prospects wise).

 

He'd OBVIOUSLY make the team better, but the team is already really good and I'm not sure an upgrade to the infield is necessary to be the best team in the AL East, and the cost will be substantial.

[godJPA]

Getting rid of Montoyo is a bigger need then Ramirez at this point. Our lineup is stacked without him.

[Slade]

Consider me against trading for Ramirez unless it's a stupid low cost in prospect capital. We don't need to score 15 runs every game, we have a very good rotation and a passable pen, and I would still like to have some flexibility 3 years from now (financially and prospects wise).

 

He'd OBVIOUSLY make the team better, but the team is already really good and I'm not sure an upgrade to the infield is necessary to be the best team in the AL East, and the cost will be substantial.

 

Yeah I am in the same mindset. I still believe in Cavan Biggio as a full time player. Save that prospect capital for the trade deadline if we need something.

 

Focus on left handed hitting and more bullpen help.

[WONDERBAT]

Getting rid of Montoyo is a bigger need then Ramirez at this point. Our lineup is stacked without him.

 

Obviously that is not happening, I think you got to give him a chance with a reconstructed roster and no more Dolis.

[John_Havok]

Consider me against trading for Ramirez unless it's a stupid low cost in prospect capital. We don't need to score 15 runs every game, we have a very good rotation and a passable pen, and I would still like to have some flexibility 3 years from now (financially and prospects wise).

 

He'd OBVIOUSLY make the team better, but the team is already really good and I'm not sure an upgrade to the infield is necessary to be the best team in the AL East, and the cost will be substantial.

 

Valid POV.

 

Let me counter it just for the sake of argument - specifically for the purpose of landing Ramirez via trade.

 

Groshans (3b), Moreno (c and maybe 3b), Martinez (SS/3b) are the biggest names left on the farm. All are now effectively blocked at the ML level for at least the next 2 seasons. Not as big a deal with Martinez as he is further away, but Moreno and Groshans are basically knocking on the door. Can't hold them down for 2 full seasons, they'll be rule 5 eligible before then. Why not use them as capital now for arguably the best trade that can be made right now in trying to land Ramirez?

[Deadpool]

Obviously that is not happening, I think you got to give him a chance with a reconstructed roster and no more Dolis.

 

And no Joe Panik. People overlook that a lot.

[THANOS]

Consider me against trading for Ramirez unless it's a stupid low cost in prospect capital. We don't need to score 15 runs every game, we have a very good rotation and a passable pen, and I would still like to have some flexibility 3 years from now (financially and prospects wise).

 

He'd OBVIOUSLY make the team better, but the team is already really good and I'm not sure an upgrade to the infield is necessary to be the best team in the AL East, and the cost will be substantial.

 

Yep, I agree.

 

A LH/Switch bat with a great approach would be welcomed, but there are other ways.

[BCZ]

Ramirez PED suspension by the AS break - over/under?

[Jimcanuck]

Prefer longer window of contention, Jays are in the sweet spot right now, no point in blowing the prospects wad for a short window where just a berrios elbow injury and springer knee problem makes us also rans

 

Longer window increases the chance of a WS winning, relatively injury free year

[Brownie19]

Valid POV.

 

Let me counter it just for the sake of argument - specifically for the purpose of landing Ramirez via trade.

 

Groshans (3b), Moreno (c and maybe 3b), Martinez (SS/3b) are the biggest names left on the farm. All are now effectively blocked at the ML level for at least the next 2 seasons. Not as big a deal with Martinez as he is further away, but Moreno and Groshans are basically knocking on the door. Can't hold them down for 2 full seasons, they'll be rule 5 eligible before then. Why not use them as capital now for arguably the best trade that can be made right now in trying to land Ramirez?

 

I can probably buy the perspective that Groshans is expendable (although I don't think he's exactly knocking at the door). Moreno is special though - he isn't blocked by Danny Jansen or Kirk (Kirk more so because I don't think he can catch 100-120 games a year for very long). There's a real possibility that Jansen's bat is a wet noodle again.

[Laika]

Prefer longer window of contention, Jays are in the sweet spot right now, no point in blowing the prospects wad for a short window where just a berrios elbow injury and springer knee problem makes us also rans

 

Longer window increases the chance of a WS winning, relatively injury free year

 

how about make the team so good that a Berrios elbow injury and Springer problem would NOT be enough to make the Jays also rans?

[max silver]

Valid POV.

 

Let me counter it just for the sake of argument - specifically for the purpose of landing Ramirez via trade.

 

Groshans (3b), Moreno (c and maybe 3b), Martinez (SS/3b) are the biggest names left on the farm. All are now effectively blocked at the ML level for at least the next 2 seasons. Not as big a deal with Martinez as he is further away, but Moreno and Groshans are basically knocking on the door. Can't hold them down for 2 full seasons, they'll be rule 5 eligible before then. Why not use them as capital now for arguably the best trade that can be made right now in trying to land Ramirez?

 

If you are worried that top prospects are effectively blocked by good major league players you can just as easily move the major league pieces out to make room for the youngsters as required. Groshans could most likely be moved to second base and would still be a great asset if he's ready during the time that Chapman is still with the club, and with the total lack of quality starting catchers in MLB it would be easy to move Jansen and/or Kirk out as well.

[Jimcanuck]

how about make the team so good that a Berrios elbow injury and Springer problem would NOT be enough to make the Jays also rans?

 

There are no guarantees in life, but statistically a longer window (more rolls of the dice) is more likely to result in a WS win than a short one

[John_Havok]

how about make the team so good that a Berrios elbow injury and Springer problem would NOT be enough to make the Jays also rans?

 

another good take. As much as we dont like Grichuk's bat, he's really the only good CF option on the roster defensively if/when Springer gets hurt.

 

The rotation depth also just got thinner. Pearson is probably the first man up of course in the event of injury, but beyond that, everyone is unproven to say the least. Even Pearson isn't really proven.

[John_Havok]

If you are worried that top prospects are effectively blocked by good major league players you can just as easily move the major league pieces out to make room for the youngsters as required. Groshans could most likely be moved to second base and would still be a great asset if he's ready during the time that Chapman is still with the club, and with the total lack of quality starting catchers in MLB it would be easy to move Jansen and/or Kirk out as well.

 

THat's pretty much my point. 3b/C is a logjam right now. THere's 2 good catching options already on the roster, and a 3b that isnt going anywhere for 2 years (except maybe the DL) It's a good problem to have, but it's also the obvious place to deal from to address any needs, whether they choose to move a major league piece or the prospect pieces of the logjam.

[Laika]

There are no guarantees in life, but statistically a longer window (more rolls of the dice) is more likely to result in a WS win than a short one

 

That's not necessarily true, Jim.

 

It depends on the WS odds per season.

 

How many WS have the Rays won since 2008 when they started being consistently "good"?

[DigitalRock]

Obviously that is not happening, I think you got to give him a chance with a reconstructed roster and no more Dolis.

 

Hopefully montoyo has gotten over Dolis and isn't still attached

[itaos]

Maybe at the deadline if there's still a need and the price has come down? Considering what the Indians took for one year of Lindor (and Carrasco) I'm cautiously optimistic there's a deal to had in time.

[Dick_Pole]

Valid POV.

 

Let me counter it just for the sake of argument - specifically for the purpose of landing Ramirez via trade.

 

Groshans (3b), Moreno (c and maybe 3b), Martinez (SS/3b) are the biggest names left on the farm. All are now effectively blocked at the ML level for at least the next 2 seasons. Not as big a deal with Martinez as he is further away, but Moreno and Groshans are basically knocking on the door. Can't hold them down for 2 full seasons, they'll be rule 5 eligible before then. Why not use them as capital now for arguably the best trade that can be made right now in trying to land Ramirez?

 

If one of these guys becomes SO good that you cannot keep them off the MLB roster any longer, the solution to this "problem" is to trade Chapman, or relegate him to super utility duties and demote Biggio or Espinal.

[Jimcanuck]

That's not necessarily true, Jim.

 

It depends on the WS odds per season.

 

How many WS have the Rays won since 2008 when they started being consistently "good"?

 

Cumulative probability >> your anecdote

[Brownie19]

That's not necessarily true, Jim.

 

It depends on the WS odds per season.

 

How many WS have the Rays won since 2008 when they started being consistently "good"?

 

Honest question - would you rather be the Rays, Cards, etc. who are 'good' and make the playoffs 'most' years (say 60% of the time - not sure if that's what they've done - I'm guessing) over the past 15 years, but NEVER win the WS.....or would you rather win the WS one year and flame out after making the playoffs like 3 times?

[King]

Blocking prospects is a good thing. Not a bad problem to have by any means. Let those guys force their way onto the roster and figure things out from there.

 

They can live as depth pieces until they are needed.

[Spanky99]

There isn't anything to this, is there?

[King]

There isn't anything to this, is there?

No, there isn't.

[THANOS]

Blocking prospects is a good thing. Not a bad problem to have by any means. Let those guys force their way onto the roster and figure things out from there.

 

They can live as depth pieces until they are needed.

 

100% this. You don't trade away the cheap years of control on guys that could be elite dudes to older leather AAV contracts with less control just because you know what you have with them right now.

 

I would much rather hold onto Groshans, Moreno and Martinez and let they hit their way up, then trade major league pieces to make room for them.

[Terminator]

Ramirez will be a tough get. The Indians are cheap but they aren't holding a fire sale. Unless they get their socks knocked off they have no reason to move him.

 

That said, it does seems like the market has shifted a little bit. It doesn't necessarily take massive prospect hauls with top-rated headliners to get guys with 2 years of control left like a lot here in think.

 

Kirk, Pearson, Biggio and Gurriel is a pretty damn big package (much better than the one the Braves gave up to get Olson IMO) and one that the Indians would probably consider. And that wouldn't take Moreno or Martinez (though I would be open to moving either for J-Ram).

[Terminator]

Honest question - would you rather be the Rays, Cards, etc. who are 'good' and make the playoffs 'most' years (say 60% of the time - not sure if that's what they've done - I'm guessing) over the past 15 years, but NEVER win the WS.....or would you rather win the WS one year and flame out after making the playoffs like 3 times?

 

Give me the WS. On the years we suck, as a hardcore fan I can just fap to prospects or something. But the goal is sustainable contention and WS wins.

[Jimcanuck]

100% this. You don't trade away the cheap years of control on guys that could be elite dudes to older leather AAV contracts with less control just because you know what you have with them right now.

 

I would much rather hold onto Groshans, Moreno and Martinez and let they hit their way up, then trade major league pieces to make room for them.

 

Which is kind of what the Rays do. It would be awesome if Shatkins takes a hybrid Rays/Dodgers approach. Would be optimal, and I believe their statements line up with this approach

[Jimcanuck]

Give me the WS. On the years we suck, as a hardcore fan I can just fap to prospects or something. But the goal is sustainable contention and WS wins.

 

I remember the Jays had a short window recently, no WS.