Around Baseball 2022

[bones10]

What ever happened to teams using openers ?

[Solaxys]

Phillies walk off Marlins in the 9th with a 3-run HR, one strike left

 

https://streamable.com/fn743o

 

WTB one of those for us.

[wilko]

What ever happened to teams using openers ?

 

They realized it was a stupid gimmick and quit doing it.

[Spanky__99]

They realized it was a stupid gimmick and quit doing it.

 

Still happens all the time.

[P2F]

 

Sweet little infant Jesus, this man is destroying the Nationals: 5 K through 2 IP thus far.

 

Final line:

5 2/3 IP, 1 H, 2 R, 2 BB, 11 K, 106 P (24 S&M)

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by P2F

[Dagagad]

This isn’t representative but it seems like every time I look at a Yankees box score they are winning by one run and being out hit. Same tonight.

[Stangstag]

This isn’t representative but it seems like every time I look at a Yankees box score they are winning by one run and being out hit. Same tonight.

 

Something something guys gotta stop swinging for the fences and play some small ball

 

…oh wait

[Benito]

This isn’t representative but it seems like every time I look at a Yankees box score they are winning by one run and being out hit. Same tonight.

 

I think it's clear evidence. Like Robert Johnson, Yanks have made a deal with the devil. They have the Midas touch this season. So it seems.

 

At least the Jays got a bit more breathing room between TB.

[Benito]

Jose Ramirez has 61 RBI

 

4-4 tonight with his 11th sb. He must have gone against his agents' advice and signed that extension. Definition of team friendly contract.

 

Wonder if the Jays were as close to a deal as some rumours I've read?

[Carlos Danger]

Something something guys gotta stop swinging for the fences and play some small ball

 

…oh wait

 

Literally no one said that.. Yet you keep perpetuating it..

[G-Snarls]

4-4 tonight with his 11th sb. He must have gone against his agents' advice and signed that extension. Definition of team friendly contract.

 

Wonder if the Jays were as close to a deal as some rumours I've read?

 

Would love to know what the Guardians wanted from the Jays

[jaysblue]

Right - you know what's best. Just waiting for those MLB guys to realize how smart you are!

 

My point I was trying to make was did pulling him after 80 pitches really make a difference and keep him healthy afterwards? He missed majority of May being on the IL. Considering most of his pitches weren't in high stressful situations, would have it made a big difference letting him take the mound in the 8th inning given how he was in the midst of a perfect game? And at his age, who knows if he'll ever get close to one again.

 

Holding a pitcher back doesn't always work out. Same with inning caps on young arms. Did the innings limit on Strasburg earlier in his career really benefit him and the Nationals? How about with Aaron Sanchez during the 2016 season? It's really sad to see how pitchers are babied these days when they reach a certain pitch count or innings total. I don't ever recall elite arms like Roy Halladay, Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson, Roy Oswalt, Chris Carpernter, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer, etc being held back and on innings caps.

[Brownie19]

My point I was trying to make was did pulling him after 80 pitches really make a difference and keep him healthy afterwards? He missed majority of May being on the IL. Considering most of his pitches weren't in high stressful situations, would have it made a big difference letting him take the mound in the 8th inning given how he was in the midst of a perfect game? And at his age, who knows if he'll ever get close to one again.

 

Holding a pitcher back doesn't always work out. Same with inning caps on young arms. Did the innings limit on Strasburg earlier in his career really benefit him and the Nationals? How about with Aaron Sanchez during the 2016 season? It's really sad to see how pitchers are babied these days when they reach a certain pitch count or innings total. I don't ever recall elite arms like Roy Halladay, Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson, Roy Oswalt, Chris Carpernter, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer, etc being held back and on innings caps.

 

It's really easy to cherry pick out the examples you want. Here, I'll try. How did Kerry Wood and Mark Prior's careers turn out? See how easy that is? You also can't really look at someone's career and say with any certainty "the inning limits and the proper usage of him have maximized his potential" because you can't directly compare the alternative.

 

It's easy for a fan to say "well Kershaw went on the IL anyway so obviously that strategy didn't work", but you and I have no idea what impacts that game had on him or would have had on him had he continued pitching. He went on the IL with pelvis/back injury 4 starts after that perfect game try....should we link that to the decision of his first start?

 

There are experts who study this for a living. I'm inclined to trust the decisions from the organizations that are spending millions on athletes, trying to win a championship. Even if it wouldn't have had any impact on Kershaw's health this season, there was risk that it would have. As the Dodgers, that risk isn't worth personal glory IMO.

[Laika]

They have fancy high tech sleeves that measure arm stress and various other sophisticated measurements for pitching fatigue / stress.

 

The Dodgers didn't yank Kershaw because of a gut feeling that it was a bad idea for him to keep pitching. He probably had an evidence based pitch limit going into that start.

[Stangstag]

Literally no one said that.. Yet you keep perpetuating it..

 

Dude people say this s*** every time the Jays lose, where have you been

[Carlos Danger]

Dude people say this s*** every time the Jays lose, where have you been

 

The conversations I recall were talking about situational hitting. There was also conversation reference to Springer's comments and then we were talking about going the other way, up the middle, vs pulling the ball etc... That is not the same as a generalization about, don't swing for the fences and play small ball.

 

Maybe you are referring to a thread I totally missed. However, I think you are over dramatizing what was a very nuanced debate with your comments.

 

Vlad didn't hit a HR last night for the walk off, he got the job done with a long single/maybe double.

[connorp]

It's really easy to cherry pick out the examples you want. Here, I'll try. How did Kerry Wood and Mark Prior's careers turn out? See how easy that is? You also can't really look at someone's career and say with any certainty "the inning limits and the proper usage of him have maximized his potential" because you can't directly compare the alternative.

 

It's easy for a fan to say "well Kershaw went on the IL anyway so obviously that strategy didn't work", but you and I have no idea what impacts that game had on him or would have had on him had he continued pitching. He went on the IL with pelvis/back injury 4 starts after that perfect game try....should we link that to the decision of his first start?

 

There are experts who study this for a living. I'm inclined to trust the decisions from the organizations that are spending millions on athletes, trying to win a championship. Even if it wouldn't have had any impact on Kershaw's health this season, there was risk that it would have. As the Dodgers, that risk isn't worth personal glory IMO.

 

I’m with you that you can cherry pick examples to make your case either way. This is true of basically any argument in general. However, dudes were pitching 400IP in 1900. 30 years ago things were way different and guys weren’t dropping like flies.

 

Yeah, there’s certainly an average velocity uptick and more pitch types being used. But I think the premier SP workhorse guys were throwing 90’s all along. Now it’a just more about how many guys are throwing 90’s. So I mean those are facts. Not saying I know the answer. Maybe it’s how much guys are throwing from 6yo. All the travel ball, rather than pitching a sandlot game? Idk.

 

But I think it’s justifiable to look at history and make a blanket statement that guys didn’t need to be babied like they are now.

[Jimcanuck]

I’m with you that you can cherry pick examples to make your case either way. This is true of basically any argument in general. However, dudes were pitching 400IP in 1900. 30 years ago things were way different and guys weren’t dropping like flies.

 

Yeah, there’s certainly an average velocity uptick and more pitch types being used. But I think the premier SP workhorse guys were throwing 90’s all along. Now it’a just more about how many guys are throwing 90’s. So I mean those are facts. Not saying I know the answer. Maybe it’s how much guys are throwing from 6yo. All the travel ball, rather than pitching a sandlot game? Idk.

 

But I think it’s justifiable to look at history and make a blanket statement that guys didn’t need to be babied like they are now.

 

lol, ok doctor

[Laika]

I’m with you that you can cherry pick examples to make your case either way. This is true of basically any argument in general. However, dudes were pitching 400IP in 1900. 30 years ago things were way different and guys weren’t dropping like flies.

 

Yeah, there’s certainly an average velocity uptick and more pitch types being used. But I think the premier SP workhorse guys were throwing 90’s all along. Now it’a just more about how many guys are throwing 90’s. So I mean those are facts. Not saying I know the answer. Maybe it’s how much guys are throwing from 6yo. All the travel ball, rather than pitching a sandlot game? Idk.

 

But I think it’s justifiable to look at history and make a blanket statement that guys didn’t need to be babied like they are now.

 

It's about the effort per pitch, not raw velocity

 

Marco Estrada throwing 91 = as much strain on his arm as Alek Manoah throwing 97

 

In past decades really good pitchers like Roy Halladay could essentially cruise through a game at 85% intensity

 

There are not many guys who can do that anymore simply because the game is more competitive... the vast majority of pitchers have to throw 100% intensity every pitch (hence they can't even cut it as full time MLB starters and they are only qualified to be relievers or openers). Even the starters who can cut it without going all out max effort every pitch probably have to throw at a wayyyy higher average intensity than the guys in past decades.

 

The guys who used to throw 300+ innings were probably throwing each pitch at like 70% physical intensity...

[connorp]

lol, ok doctor

 

You’re reaching for a burn bro. Where in that post did I imply I know anything about the medical field? I simply stated facts and followed by tossing out a couple things, while ending with idk

 

I think you’re probably mad that I’m battling you in BORED this week like Rocky in Rocky I

[Omar]

It's about the effort per pitch, not raw velocity

 

Marco Estrada throwing 91 = as much strain on his arm as Alek Manoah throwing 97

 

In past decades really good pitchers like Roy Halladay could essentially cruise through a game at 85% intensity

 

There are not many guys who can do that anymore simply because the game is more competitive... the vast majority of pitchers have to throw 100% intensity every pitch (hence they can't even cut it as full time MLB starters and they are only qualified to be relievers or openers). Even the starters who can cut it without going all out max effort every pitch probably have to throw at a wayyyy higher average intensity than the guys in past decades.

 

The guys who used to throw 300+ innings were probably throwing each pitch at like 70% physical intensity...

 

Not to mention the spin rates are huge compared to the past and have an effect on the biomechanics of a pitcher leading to wear and tear.

[Laika]

Not to mention the spin rates are huge compared to the past and have an effect on the biomechanics of a pitcher leading to wear and tear.

 

Absolutely, everything is harder

 

Pitchers have to throw these wicked sliders at 100% arm speed nowadays.

 

And some of them have to throw like 60% breaking balls to make it...

[Brownie19]

Ding Ding Ding.....KO

[connorp]

Ding Ding Ding.....KO

 

Really? I mean, is there any factual evidence Nolan Ryan or someone was throwing “70% effort” lol.. it’s a very wild generalization. I’m not disregarding anything said, but there’s no mic drops

[connorp]

This board would probably be a good place to do one of those social conformity studies

[Laika]

Really? I mean, is there any factual evidence Nolan Ryan or someone was throwing “70% effort” lol.. it’s a very wild generalization. I’m not disregarding anything said, but there’s no mic drops

 

the percentages are for illustration only, I have know idea what the actual intensity differences would be. I am making a general point about pitching effort and how that has changed over time.

 

It's a generalization on purpose... I don't really care if Nolan Ryan or someone else as an anecdote threw at 100% intensity all the time and still made it through a 300 win career by survivorship bias

[connorp]

the percentages are for illustration only, I have know idea what the actual intensity differences would be. I am making a general point about pitching effort and how that has changed over time.

 

It's a generalization on purpose... I don't really care if Nolan Ryan or someone else as an anecdote threw at 100% intensity all the time and still made it through a 300 win career by survivorship bias

 

I’m not saying you should take Nolan Ryan anecdote as some fact. You’re sharing an informed opinion on the matter. It’s just funny how if I toss something out that I’ve read over the years in articles with quotes from doctors about kids throwing so much at a young age is tossed aside but if you offer an opinion, everyone lines up to lick your nuts lol

[Laika]

well I have nice nuts

 

yours are gross

[John_Havok]

Really? I mean, is there any factual evidence Nolan Ryan or someone was throwing “70% effort” lol.. it’s a very wild generalization. I’m not disregarding anything said, but there’s no mic drops

 

Actual evidence is rather had to come by, given the tech to measure such things wasnt around back then.

 

But logical thought says that with todays technology and massive amounts of data that we have access to now... guys are throwing 100-103 mph with as close to max effort as possible. Knowing this, and knowing the types of physical training regimens and the huge advances in said training that todays athletes have, it's not much of a stretch of thought to say that if todays athletes have all of these things and still can only top out at 100-103 at as close to max effort as can be measured, then someone throwing 100mph 30 years ago, was also probably throwing max effort when he hit 100mph, but he also didnt throw near 100mph with every fastball. He dialed it down quite a bit for most of his pitches and just used the 100 mph when he wanted to. He likely didnt throw max effort a massive amount of the time because he didnt need to. That is what liekly got him as many innings as he got.

 

Look at how many pitchers throw at or near 100 mph now vs then. Ryan and the other (very few) hard throwers were the absolute unicorns of their time. They had fastball that were like 15mph faster than league average.

[connorp]

Actual evidence is rather had to come by, given the tech to measure such things wasnt around back then.

 

But logical thought says that with todays technology and massive amounts of data that we have access to now... guys are throwing 100-103 mph with as close to max effort as possible. Knowing this, and knowing the types of physical training regimens and the huge advances in said training that todays athletes have, it's not much of a stretch of thought to say that if todays athletes have all of these things and still can only top out at 100-103 at as close to max effort as can be measured, then someone throwing 100mph 30 years ago, was also probably throwing max effort when he hit 100mph, but he also didnt throw near 100mph with every fastball. He dialed it down quite a bit for most of his pitches and just used the 100 mph when he wanted to. He likely didnt throw max effort a massive amount of the time because he didnt need to. That is what liekly got him as many innings as he got.

 

Look at how many pitchers throw at or near 100 mph now vs then. Ryan and the other (very few) hard throwers were the absolute unicorns of their time. They had fastball that were like 15mph faster than league average.

 

I think your argument starts drifting across lanes a little bit into how much deeper the talent pool is; which is factual of course but kind of separate.

 

Nolan Ryan is being used here, by me at least, for a lack of being able to rattle off 20-30 pitchers from that era that were studs, threw hard, and were not babied. I mean guys like Jim Palmer, Jim Carlton, Tom Seaver…they aren’t throwing 87moh fastballs, are they?