GDT (3/3) | Blue Jays (9-11) @ Rays (11-10) | Ryu vs Patino | April 25 — 1:10 PM

[Spanky99]

Hrmm... just looked it up...

 

The rule is dumb and far too vague, apparently... "most effective reliever" is a bizarre judgement call.. I mean, Dolis got 4 outs on 6 pitches, why doesn't he get the W?

 

You can get a W and save simultaneously, yes, my point is it's dumb, but give it to someone like Chatwood whom deserved it, there's zero f***s given and it's a shame.

[BigCecil]

Ryu gives me the Halliday feels that when he is on the mind I feel like we are going to win.

 

I think his command and stuff is incredible to watch. And more than happy with the signing. But I still don't get that feeling.

 

I feel like if he is off at all, with no V, he can get lit easier, like the one game TB playoff '20. Its not always the case by any means, but top starters with power arms it feels like they can get by a bit easier without their best stuff. I also have a bias that i love to see pitchers just bring it.

[Brownie19]

Hrmm... just looked it up...

 

The rule is dumb and far too vague, apparently... "most effective reliever" is a bizarre judgement call.. I mean, Dolis got 4 outs on 6 pitches, why doesn't he get the W?

 

Why don't we just eliminate pitching wins. I'm good with that.

[BlueRocky]

Ryu is clearly underrated by media, fans and teams. We wouldn't have him for 4 and 80 right now if he wasn't under rated. That was considered a big over pay by most. It's looking like a pretty fair deal right now. I'm glad he's ours!

 

He also only got a fraction of that 20 M in the two month covid season. He may lose more time with upcoming CBA negotiations. It’s not a true 80 M contract, Ryu has been worth every penny though.

[Krylian]

Why don't we just eliminate pitching wins. I'm good with that.

 

Anyone over 50 would spontaneously combust.

[Jays24]

Anyone over 50 would spontaneously combust.

 

Im not close to 50 and I hate that idea. You play to win the game and sometimes pitchers can pitch according to the score. Maybe try some things in a blowout that they wouldn't in a close game. Wins and losses are still relevant to an extent even with a ton of external factors contributing to that. Let's not pretend that this is the only stat with its external factors.

[Krylian]

Im not close to 50 and I hate that idea. You play to win the game and sometimes pitchers can pitch according to the score. Maybe try some things in a blowout that they wouldn't in a close game. Wins and losses are still relevant to an extent even with a ton of external factors contributing to that. Let's not pretend that this is the only stat with its external factors.

 

Wins are a team stat. You still play to win the game but you don't need a W or a L beside a pitchers stat line to know how they performed. The W or L should be reserved for the team as a whole.

[Jays24]

Wins are a team stat. You still play to win the game but you don't need a W or a L beside a pitchers stat line to know how they performed. The W or L should be reserved for the team as a whole.

 

Unlike other sports, starting pitchers only take part in 1 of 5 games usually. That's their way of showing off their record for when they take the mound even if there are a ton of other external factors.

 

During the bleak years of the Jays, it for sure meant something for Doc Halladay to show off his W-L record in comparison to the crap beside him. Id agree to get rid of the stat if they were able to play everyday. I'm not caught up to speed on all types of analytics but there would need to be a Win Probability stat to replace the W-L record at the very least.

[Orgfiller]

Unlike other sports, starting pitchers only take part in 1 of 5 games usually. That's their way of showing off their record for when they take the mound even if there are a ton of other external factors.

 

During the bleak years of the Jays, it for sure meant something for Doc Halladay to show off his W-L record in comparison to the crap beside him. Id agree to get rid of the stat if they were able to play everyday. I'm not caught up to speed on all types of analytics but there would need to be a Win Probability stat to replace the W-L record at the very least.

 

And when Jacob deGrom finishes with a 10-9 record or 11-8 or peak Felix Hernandez has a 13-12 or 14-14 record at the end of the season what does that tell you? Were they simply not "winners"?

[Krylian]

And when Jacob deGrom finishes with a 10-9 record or 11-8 or peak Felix Hernandez has a 13-12 or 14-14 record at the end of the season what does that tell you? Were they simply not "winners"?

 

They didn't have heart or grit.

[The Cats Ass]

They could attach the W/L to the pitcher who pitches the most innings in the game. No matter when the runs were scored.

[Deadpool]

And when Jacob deGrom finishes with a 10-9 record or 11-8 or peak Felix Hernandez has a 13-12 or 14-14 record at the end of the season what does that tell you? Were they simply not "winners"?

 

Didn't pitch to the score.

[Spanky99]

Didn't pitch to the score.

 

lol... he pulled a Jack Morris out of his hat!

[Brownie19]

Im not close to 50 and I hate that idea. You play to win the game and sometimes pitchers can pitch according to the score. Maybe try some things in a blowout that they wouldn't in a close game. Wins and losses are still relevant to an extent even with a ton of external factors contributing to that. Let's not pretend that this is the only stat with its external factors.

 

Why don't we arbitrarily assign a W to a positional player? Mike Trout goes 4-4 with 2 HR's and a game saving catch in the 9th inning and the starting pitcher goes 5 innings, giving up 4 ER, but leaves with his team winning 6-4 and somehow he's designated as the reason the team won the game? That is f***ing stupid. Any wins and loses assigned to a single player in a team sport is f***ing stupid (goalies in hockey also fall into this category).

[Virgil_Hiltz]

anybody can skew any stat to suit their likes and dislikes.....I just ignore the ones i find useless! .........But carry on because someone does like your choices!

[Jays24]

Why don't we arbitrarily assign a W to a positional player? Mike Trout goes 4-4 with 2 HR's and a game saving catch in the 9th inning and the starting pitcher goes 5 innings, giving up 4 ER, but leaves with his team winning 6-4 and somehow he's designated as the reason the team won the game? That is f***ing stupid. Any wins and loses assigned to a single player in a team sport is f***ing stupid (goalies in hockey also fall into this category).

 

I didn't say that the W-L stat should be the be all end all. There are outliers with majority of stats being used and that is why we don't look at only one since there will always be outliers that need to be accounted for. I am good with a Win probability stat replacing W-L records but everyone already knows it's a team sport when looking at those numbers.

 

While I was typing, I fully knew Degrom and Hernandez were players who looked worse because of the W-L record. However, these players are in the minority and I'm sure you would see a lot more players with a positive W-L record reflecting who they are as pitchers. This is why we should look at all other stats to determine whether the W-L is indicative of the pitcher.

[King]

I didn't say that the W-L stat should be the be all end all. There are outliers with majority of stats being used and that is why we don't look at only one since there will always be outliers that need to be accounted for. I am good with a Win probability stat replacing W-L records but everyone already knows it's a team sport when looking at those numbers.

 

While I was typing, I fully knew Degrom and Hernandez were players who looked worse because of the W-L record. However, these players are in the minority and I'm sure you would see a lot more players with a positive W-L record reflecting who they are as pitchers. This is why we should look at all other stats to determine whether the W-L is indicative of the pitcher.

 

No one is looking at W-L record for anything other than novelty on the back of a baseball card.

[BTS]

I recently read 3 nights in August, about Tony La Russa. The author kept using wins as a measure of pitcher quality. As in "Darryl Kile was a 19-win starter in Houston, but wasn't even a 0.500 pitcher in Colorado. La Russa knew he still had it in him to be a 15-20 win pitcher".

 

It was not a good book.

[Jays24]

anybody can skew any stat to suit their likes and dislikes.....I just ignore the ones i find useless! .........But carry on because someone does like your choices!

 

Exactly. That's all I'm saying lol. We can dig out flaws with so many stats out there. Maybe the catchers suck at calling games or the pitching coach suck at making adjustments and they're influencing whatever pitching stat you have a hard on for. Or maybe the score keeper keeps giving out hits for clear errors and they're altering the stat tracking process all together.

 

All I said was to keep the W-L record because it does hold some value. Now I'm not debating that it's the most important one out there at all. It is why WAR is slowly creeping into mainstream talk because it's just 1 stat that kind of tells you the overall value of the player. Casuals aren't mathematicians who want to dive into a bunch of numbers to realize their value. Keep It Simple Stupid lol.

[Jays24]

I recently read 3 nights in August, about Tony La Russa. The author kept using wins as a measure of pitcher quality. As in "Darryl Kile was a 19-win starter in Houston, but wasn't even a 0.500 pitcher in Colorado. La Russa knew he still had it in him to be a 15-20 win pitcher".

 

It was not a good book.

 

Agree fully. If he supported the win loss record with other useful information, he might have a point. Pointing only to the record is a joke lol.

[King]

Exactly. That's all I'm saying lol. We can dig out flaws with so many stats out there. Maybe the catchers suck at calling games or the pitching coach suck at making adjustments and they're influencing whatever pitching stat you have a hard on for. Or maybe the score keeper keeps giving out hits for clear errors and they're altering the stat tracking process all together.

 

All I said was to keep the W-L record because it does hold some value. Now I'm not debating that it's the most important one out there at all. It is why WAR is slowly creeping into mainstream talk because it's just 1 stat that kind of tells you the overall value of the player. Casuals aren't mathematicians who want to dive into a bunch of numbers to realize their value. Keep It Simple Stupid lol.

 

You should spend a few hours trying to catch up on modern day analytics. There is 0 value to W-L record. It tells you nothing. You are wasting your time by looking at it.

[Brownie19]

Exactly. That's all I'm saying lol. We can dig out flaws with so many stats out there. Maybe the catchers suck at calling games or the pitching coach suck at making adjustments and they're influencing whatever pitching stat you have a hard on for. Or maybe the score keeper keeps giving out hits for clear errors and they're altering the stat tracking process all together.

 

All I said was to keep the W-L record because it does hold some value. Now I'm not debating that it's the most important one out there at all. It is why WAR is slowly creeping into mainstream talk because it's just 1 stat that kind of tells you the overall value of the player. Casuals aren't mathematicians who want to dive into a bunch of numbers to realize their value. Keep It Simple Stupid lol.

 

How much value does it provide? I'm not going to say it's completely useless, but with the advancements and alternatives we have, it's probably the next thing to useless - providing almost no context. You can cite casuals all you want, but I suspect most don't even understand what criteria is required for a pitcher to be assigned the W or the L - especially for relivers.

[Deadpool]

Why don't we arbitrarily assign a W to a positional player? Mike Trout goes 4-4 with 2 HR's and a game saving catch in the 9th inning and the starting pitcher goes 5 innings, giving up 4 ER, but leaves with his team winning 6-4 and somehow he's designated as the reason the team won the game? That is f***ing stupid. Any wins and loses assigned to a single player in a team sport is f***ing stupid (goalies in hockey also fall into this category).

 

3 star system, like in Hockey... The 1st star gets the win, and stars 2 and 3 get lovely parting gifts.

[Orgfiller]

The best part of this W-L nonsense is it's coming in a thread where the starting pitcher Ryu dominated the Rays for 3.2 IP but had to be talen out unexpectedly. Okay, maybe he didn't "deserve" to get the win because the bullpen had to pick up the slack. So which one of the relievers who pitched the bulk of the remaining 5.1 IP got the win? Tim Mayza, who got 1 out and gave up two singles the next inning leaving the tying and go-ahead runs on base with nobody out for Tyler Chatwood to clean up the mess, who also didn't get the win.

[Jays24]

You should spend a few hours trying to catch up on modern day analytics. There is 0 value to W-L record. It tells you nothing. You are wasting your time by looking at it.

 

I am actually trying to get caught up to speed on this as we speak. I don't like sounding dumb in discussions which has happened a few times on here it seems lol.

 

Unless you can replace the W-L record with something similar, it will remain in the game. People like to know what are their teams chances are when a particular player plays. They could be kept for every player and they kind of are unofficially. We've all heard the "team is 15-5 when play X players."

 

Very stupid stat on its own for sure but with gambling blowing up, casual gamblers/fans just want the dumb downed version of what they can expect the outcome of the game to be. Unfortunately, the people who place betting lines use more complicated algorithms than that lol.

[Jays24]

The best part of this W-L nonsense is it's coming in a thread where the starting pitcher Ryu dominated the Rays for 3.2 IP but had to be talen out unexpectedly. Okay, maybe he didn't "deserve" to get the win because the bullpen had to pick up the slack. So which one of the relievers who pitched the bulk of the remaining 5.1 IP got the win? Tim Mayza, who got 1 out and gave up two singles the next inning leaving the tying and go-ahead runs on base with nobody out for Tyler Chatwood to clean up the mess, who also didn't get the win.

 

Agreed, stupid for sure. Before it was expected starters would usually go deep into games. That's all changed and so should how the W-L stat is calculated or it could even be replaced by a Win probability stat. Baseball is a tough sport to change anything but you can slowly see it happen.

 

Speaking of which LOL

 

Pioneer League will have sudden-death HR derby to replace extra innings

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2162163

[Brownie19]

I am actually trying to get caught up to speed on this as we speak. I don't like sounding dumb in discussions which has happened a few times on here it seems lol.

 

Unless you can replace the W-L record with something similar, it will remain in the game. People like to know what are their teams chances are when a particular player plays. They could be kept for every player and they kind of are unofficially. We've all heard the "team is 15-5 when play X players."

 

Very stupid stat on its own for sure but with gambling blowing up, casual gamblers/fans just want the dumb downed version of what they can expect the outcome of the game to be. Unfortunately, the people who place betting lines use more complicated algorithms than that lol.

 

You have to be one stupid gambler if you're looking up the starting pitchers W-L record for anything at all. There is zero reason to cater this this person. The only reason to keep it is history. Because people back in the early 1900's created a stupid stat, we must now continue to track it, even though we've known for a long time that it's completely useless.

[Jays24]

You have to be one stupid gambler if you're looking up the starting pitchers W-L record for anything at all. There is zero reason to cater this this person. The only reason to keep it is history. Because people back in the early 1900's created a stupid stat, we must now continue to track it, even though we've known for a long time that it's completely useless.

 

Have you heard the logic from gamblers when they place wagers? There is very little logic used and most of it's done based on instinct. People don't have time to decipher through stats especially when live betting is become massive and will probably be available everywhere shortly (including in ball parks).

[Stangstag]

You have to be one stupid gambler if you're looking up the starting pitchers W-L record for anything at all. There is zero reason to cater this this person. The only reason to keep it is history. Because people back in the early 1900's created a stupid stat, we must now continue to track it, even though we've known for a long time that it's completely useless.

 

IMO you have to be stupid to gamble on a single baseball game at all, but lots of people still do it. I even had a friend that was betting on spring training games.

[Spanky99]

Have you heard the logic from gamblers when they place wagers? There is very little logic used and most of it's done based on instinct. People don't have time to decipher through stats especially when live betting is become massive and will probably be available everywhere shortly (including in ball parks).

 

You been living under a rock man, sports betting has been bigger than ever and it's all fueled by analytics?