Around Baseball 2021

[Scion]

[Jays24]

Gasol is done. I do miss Ibaka. Apparently we lost him because we were trying to hold back enough cash to get Gasol too and end up losing both.

 

Financial flexibility is always valuable in the NBA - whether it's for Giannis or someone else. This isn't a situation where he put all his eggs in one basket. He isn't that stupid. Don't create the narrative.

 

Ya I was clearly upset at the Ibaka screw up because he actually wanted to be here. Agreed that Gasol was practically done but he still would have been a huge upgrade over the scrubs we're putting out there now. We could have easily offered a bigger 1 year deal or even a 2 year deal to Ibaka. We clearly undervalued his importance and are now paying for it because we wanted to keep a pipedream alive with no contingency.

[THANOS]

Yup. Only I like the idea of Bauer and a Brantley type more than Springer and and SP 2/3. I think Springer is more likely though.

 

And signing Brantley allows us to try and trade LGJ ++ for Castillo.

[gruber92]

You keep judging while having about 1% of the information Gruber. Great job.

 

If you continued to read you would have realized that I admitted that it was a knee jerk reaction, just because Lindor would have been fantastic here. How ironic you judged anyway without all the information available to you. Go have a drink and relax.

[L54]

Yup. Only I like the idea of Bauer and a Brantley type more than Springer and and SP 2/3. I think Springer is more likely though.

 

Brantley would be a great fit. It's too bad CF is such a black hole because him and Bauer would be a great offseason

[THANOS]

Pretty mediocre return for adding Carrasco, I would say.

 

Rosario is okay but more of a 2 or 3 year placeholder, now entering arb. He's a player who is kind of playing at his floor so maybe there is upside left.

Gimenez is a slapdick prospect who you would just expect to be as good as Rosario. He has trade value though as a 50 FV six year infielder.

Don't know much about Wolf and Greene but they are further away HS picks.. Dasan Brown types I guess.

 

Makes me wonder how much more then even got by adding Carrasco. Shouldn't Lindor alone have been able to fetch Rosario, Wolf, and Greene?

 

HMmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

So my proposed offers for that package may have even been an overpay lol.

 

LGJ, Hiraldo, Kay & Murphy

 

Or

 

Jansen, Groshans, Hiraldo & Kay

[The Iceman]

Glad our management is sitting on their nuts.

 

This was a deal to be made if there ever was one.

[The Cats Ass]

Groshans is better than all those guys but I bet Cleveland really wanted a SS back so Gimenez was going to the front of the line probably.

 

It's an underwhelming return as most of us expected because CLE was telegraphing that they didn't even want to pay Lindor's salary this year.

 

But I'm still glad we didn't trump that offer.

 

I was looking at a comp for us. And this is pretty much what I came up with. Except Kloffenstein instead of Van Eyk.

[Scion]

I'm surprised there hasn't been any updates on Sugano today. There is a little over two hours to go until his posting period is complete. Perhaps he really is leaning towards a return to Japan.

[Brownie19]

Glad our management is sitting on their nuts.

 

This was a deal to be made if there ever was one.

 

Why claim this when you have little to no information? Maybe Lindor wants $300M or said he's testing the market. Maybe he said he wouldn't sign an extension with Toronto.

 

Forming and opinion and/or judging people like this is pathetic.

[glory]

I'm surprised there hasn't been any updates on Sugano today. There is a little over two hours to go until his posting period is complete. Perhaps he really is leaning towards a return to Japan.

 

Yeah if he was coming over to MLB, a deal probably would have been reached by now. He's probably staying in Japan. He might still get a good MLB deal next winter at age 32, but obviously with pitchers it is always a risk.

[The Iceman]

Why claim this when you have little to no information? Maybe Lindor wants $300M or said he's testing the market. Maybe he said he wouldn't sign an extension with Toronto.

 

Forming and opinion and/or judging people like this is pathetic.

 

NOPE, they need to get off their nuts.

So even if Lindor wouldn't sign an extension right away make the steal of a deal and try to win this year. Pretty sure Lindor and Carrasco would put us right at the top of the heap. And if Lindor doesn't resign give your $30 million to Seager, Story Baez, or Correa instead.

[mellowgold]

Why claim this when you have little to no information? Maybe Lindor wants $300M or said he's testing the market. Maybe he said he wouldn't sign an extension with Toronto.

 

Forming and opinion and/or judging people like this is pathetic.

 

Pathetic? This is a bit harsh. It's obviously a heat of the moment reaction, but even if it's not, he's allowed to be disappointed with management.

[Laika]

Yeah if he was coming over to MLB, a deal probably would have been reached by now. He's probably staying in Japan. He might still get a good MLB deal next winter at age 32, but obviously with pitchers it is always a risk.

 

Weird to think that a guy his age would return to Japan with a mind to try MLB again next year.

 

If he does return to Japan it's probably because the Yomiuri Giants just decided to offer him way more money than he thought they would.

[jerb]

 

Ken Rosenthal

@Ken_Rosenthal

 

Less than two hours remain before right-hander Tomoyuki Sugano’s posting period expires. Padres among teams in mix, but a return to Japan still appears most likely outcome, sources tell me and @dennistlin.

[Laika]

Imagine if the Padres swoop in and sign Sugano for like 3/$36. On the day Lindor goes to the Mets - Blue Jays fans would be super sad.

[Carlos Danger]

 

Ken Rosenthal

@Ken_Rosenthal

 

Less than two hours remain before right-hander Tomoyuki Sugano’s posting period expires. Padres among teams in mix, but a return to Japan still appears most likely outcome, sources tell me and @dennistlin.

 

I think he goes back to Japan.. Teams FOs leak like sieves and if nothing at this point..

[jerb]

 

Kevin Acee

@sdutKevinAcee

 

Padres still working on reaching agreement with Japanese star Tomoyuki Sugano, two sources tell @sdutSanders and I.

Same people said team was out last week. Unclear what changed.

Deadline to come to terms with Sugano is 2 pm PT.

[Scion]

Imagine if the Padres swoop in and sign Sugano for like 3/$36. On the day Lindor goes to the Mets - Blue Jays fans would be super sad.

 

It would be pretty funny to read the comments if that happened.

[Laika]

Tomoyuki "Blue Balls" Sugano

[Carlos Danger]

It would be pretty funny to read the comments if that happened.

 

I really thought he was going to San Fran.. Not TO. If he does, same state wrong city.... Asians like California .

[Brownie19]

NOPE, they need to get off their nuts.

So even if Lindor wouldn't sign an extension right away make the steal of a deal and try to win this year. Pretty sure Lindor and Carrasco would put us right at the top of the heap. And if Lindor doesn't resign give your $30 million to Seager, Story Baez, or Correa instead.

 

Sorry I'm not giving up the prospect capital for a 1 year run at a WS based on an assumption we'll be able to land one of the high price SS free agents.

[wilko]

I really thought he was going to San Fran.. Not TO. If he does, same state wrong city.... Asians like California .

 

Racist!

[Brownie19]

Pathetic? This is a bit harsh. It's obviously a heat of the moment reaction, but even if it's not, he's allowed to be disappointed with management.

 

Being 'disappointed' means you've formed an opinion. Forming an opinion void of information and facts is a major issue within society.

 

Would he be disappointed in the FO if:

 

1. he learned Lindor told the Jays he hates Toronto and wouldn't sign an extension?

2. he learned Lindor wanted 10 years, $350M, otherwise he wouldn't sign an extension?

3. he learned the Jays offered more and the Indians wanted to trade him to the NL?

4. he learned the Jays offered Groshans, Kirk and Gurriel and the Indians (mis)valued the Mets deal over that?

[The Iceman]

Sorry I'm not giving up the prospect capital for a 1 year run at a WS based on an assumption we'll be able to land one of the high price SS free agents.

 

If you can't land a SS move Bichette back to SS and use your $30 million elsewhere.

 

Management can't keep finishing second to everyone in transactions. PULL THE TRIGGER.

[Carlos Danger]

Racist!

 

Cubans like Miami

 

French like wine

 

Canadians like beer

 

Mexicans like beans

[The Iceman]

You couldn’t draw a bigger contrast between new Mets GM Jared Porter and his predecessor Brodie Van Wagenen than the one shown in their first big trades on the job. Where Van Wagenen traded away the team’s best prospect for a broken-down ex-superstar with an albatross of a contract plus an unreliable closer, Porter traded less and got a bona fide superstar plus an above-average starter. The former trade made the Mets more famous, but Thursday’s trade for Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco makes them more dangerous, and on par with the best teams in the National League.

 

The Mets haven’t had an above-average player at shortstop since José Reyes’ last good season there in 2011, but with the trade for Lindor, whose 2018 WAR of 7.8 is higher than any shortstop in Mets franchise history has ever posted, they now have an all-around superstar who’ll make their offense and defense better. Lindor’s 2018 was his best year, and since then he’s lost some of his discipline at the plate, chasing more breaking stuff at the edges of the zone and out of it, resulting in small hits to his walk and strikeout rates and OBPs well below his 2018 peak. There’s nothing in his batted-ball data to say he can’t hit as he did in 2018, and perhaps a new environment and better team will convince him to go back to his earlier, more patient approach. He averaged 34 homers a year from 2017-19, slugging over .500 in each season, which would put him in the top 3 or 4 in the Mets’ lineup, behind guys who play the corners. He’s also a better fielder than Amed Rosario, who was included in Thursday’s trade, and has more range than Andrés Giménez, who played at the peak of his ability in 2020 and will also go back to Cleveland. The Mets got about 3-4 wins better in this deal just from Lindor, and that could become 5+ if he returns to the approach that made him a nearly 8-win player in 2018.

 

The Mets also get Carrasco, giving them one of the strongest rotations in the National League and an actual surplus of starters. Outside of his 2019 season, when he was diagnosed with chronic myeloid leukemia and still came back after less than three months on the injured list, he’s been an above-average starter every year since 2014. He works with a four-pitch mix and a traditional approach, getting ahead with the four-seamer but getting swings-and-misses with his slider and changeup, the latter a plus pitch for him going all the way back to his time as a prospect in the Phillies system. He’s gotten a huge whiff rate on his high-spin curveball the last two years, but seems to use it less than his other weapons because he doesn’t land it as consistently for strikes.

 

The addition of Carrasco, who slots in with Marcus Stroman behind Jacob deGrom, gives the Mets at least three viable starter options for the last two slots, four if Noah Syndergaard is ready to return this year from Tommy John surgery. Seth Lugo, David Peterson and Steven Matz have all shown at some point they could be capable major-league starters, although Lugo and Matz struggled with the long ball in 2020 and Peterson gave up too many walks for a finesse pitcher.

 

Cleveland gets a return that will likely be pilloried by fans, but the truth is this is a reasonable return for the situation. Lindor has one year left until free agency and expressed no interest in staying with Cleveland. The economy is down due to the pandemic, and MLB owners are on street corners asking for alms for the poor, so there are few buyers for premium free agents and stars available in trade. There are also a lot of shortstops available in free agency (including Marcus Semien and Didi Gregorius) and fewer contenders looking for help there than there are in most winters. We can certainly criticize Cleveland’s ownership for being cheap, but there are also a lot of outside factors here that were beyond the team’s control and left them worse off in the end. They weren’t getting an elite prospect back for one year of Lindor this winter, and it does appear that, given that constraint, they prioritized moving more money instead.

 

They did get four players in return, a couple of whom are talented enough they might make fans feel better about the trade in time. Amed Rosario was among the top prospects in baseball when the Mets first called him up, but he struggled to recognize breaking stuff in the majors and regressed badly on defense, to the point that the Mets talked about moving him to the outfield. He still has plus bat speed, can run, and has the hands and arm to handle shortstop, although he might be better off in center field or as a super-utility player who can handle just about any position other than catcher or first base. It’s going to come down to the bat, which showed signs of progress in 2019, especially against offspeed stuff, but all of that progress was lost in the shortened 2020 season and the Mets seemed inclined to move on. There’s still a lot of untapped potential here, and Rosario is young enough to make a big jump in the next year, but the odds are now tilting against him.

 

Andrés Giménez is the opposite sort of prospect — high floor, low ceiling, reliable on defense, projecting to no impact. He can handle shortstop, with good instincts, and average speed out of the box with more once he’s underway. At the plate, he makes a lot of contact, but it’s very low quality, and there’s nothing in his swing or build to make anyone think he’ll be a high-impact hitter in the future. He could be a soft regular at short for a while, maybe a José Iglesias type of player who balances below-average offense with above-average defense.

 

Cleveland also gets two prospects, both of whom were recent high draft picks by the Mets. Josh Wolf was their second-round pick in 2019, a skinny, projectable high school right-hander from Texas with a great arm but not much polish to his game. He has mid-rotation upside, but is probably four years away from the majors and has the risk of any 19-year-old pitcher. Isaiah Greene was their second-round pick this year, and really impressed the Mets in instructional league this past fall, playing great defense in center field and hitting well off pitchers who were mostly older than he is. He has plus speed and very quick hands at the plate, showing good poise in the batters’ box and very good instincts in center. If there’s a sleeper in the deal, it’s him, as he wasn’t as famous as most elite California high school prospects are. This is a solid baseball return, but it’s also hard to avoid seeing it as a deal that cleared money in Cleveland’s budget at the cost of any short-term competitiveness.

[Spanky__99]

Why claim this when you have little to no information? Maybe Lindor wants $300M or said he's testing the market. Maybe he said he wouldn't sign an extension with Toronto.

 

Forming and opinion and/or judging people like this is pathetic.

 

Yeah, that trade is without an extension. The Mets and Padres can kindly f*** off now.

[Brownie19]

If you can't land a SS move Bichette back to SS and use your $30 million elsewhere.

 

Management can't keep finishing second to everyone in transactions. PULL THE TRIGGER.

 

I agree. I think Lindor is a FANTASTIC player. A cornerstone, face of the franchise guy, but guess what? We already have a FANTASTIC shortstop who's a cornerstone, face of the franchise guy on the team!

 

Hard to justify moving all that prospect capital for Lindor (no matter how good he is) without an extension - especially given the market is flooded with SS's right now/next year.

 

It's frustrating to see big names fall off the board, but I'm going to reserve judgement until the offseaon is over to see what the FO has in store. I do believe this is the right opportunity and time to add FWIW.

[glory]

Another thing to keep in mind, especially if the Jays have trouble attracting top flight players, is to keep Bichette happy. He wants to play SS, he’s young enough to improve with more reps there, and he’s also very likely the best all around player the Jays will have over the next five years. I wouldn’t mess around with his position unless it was necessary and he’s not Vlad level defensively at SS.

 

I’m fine with missing out on Lindor either way.