Around Baseball 2021

[G-Snarls]

Sandy Alderson says they've had "one conversation" with Lindor about a contract extension and "none with his agent" so "there's no guarantee. It's something we'll approach in the next few weeks"

[jerb]

 

Ken Rosenthal

@Ken_Rosenthal

 

Free-agent infielder Brandon Drury has signed a minor-league deal with the Mets, sources tell The Athletic. His final season with the DBacks in 2017 was Mets GM Jared Porter’s first with that club.

[z3r0s]

And now the STEAL Drury from us!!!!

 

/s

[saskjayfan]

This is a crazy year. When I look at Bauer, JTR and Springer I'm not sure where their markets are. We're in on Springer, but who else? DJ seems to have the Yankees and Dodgers to drive his market and we're in of course because we're in on everyone. When have the top 4 players had such soft markets?

[Deadpool]

You realize, as mentioned previously by various posters. IF the patient approach causes prices to come down, the competition then increases with the pool we are swimming in expanding. The fact we will probably have to start the season in Buffalo and the whole cross border thing will be a consideration if anywhere close to even. Which probably doesn't mean any bargains for us..

 

So, we have an offer of 5/115 on the table, if another team says "Hey, I can afford that!" and makes the same offer, Springer isn't going to just take the new offer, his agent is going to come back to the Jays and say "we've got another 5/115 offer on the table, can you beat that?"

 

And the Jays already know their min/max value on Springer, and will counter offer at that point.

 

There's literally zero advantage to the Jays tossing around $150M at this point, even if they have $150M to spend.

[Laika]

This is a crazy year. When I look at Bauer, JTR and Springer I'm not sure where their markets are. We're in on Springer, but who else? DJ seems to have the Yankees and Dodgers to drive his market and we're in of course because we're in on everyone. When have the top 4 players had such soft markets?

 

Never. This has never happened, at least not in modern history.

 

Do any of our very old members remember an offseason this cold? I would not know if any of the MLB strikes had a chilling effect like this. Of course, free agency was way different back then so the comparison is apples to oranges.

[Brownie19]

Ex-Angels employee names players who used his ball-doctoring substance

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2087143

 

Wonder if this will become a big deal...

 

"Verlander apparently told Harkins in a phone call that "the league has let this go on for 100 years," and claimed MLB began cracking down on pitchers using doctored substances after it learned teams were hiring chemists and conducting studies to find better ways to increase spin rate, according to court documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle's Chandler Rome."

 

I've long suspected that some teams were doing this. I wonder how many teams are and if it's given the an advantage. Given all the player movement, you'd expect it would be somewhat limited as a player moving from a team with the scientific substance would soon realize his new team is just slapping Bullfrog Sunscreen and rosin together and hoping for the best. The 'good s***' would probably spread fast around the league.

[Laika]

So, we have an offer of 5/115 on the table, if another team says "Hey, I can afford that!" and makes the same offer, Springer isn't going to just take the new offer, his agent is going to come back to the Jays and say "we've got another 5/115 offer on the table, can you beat that?"

 

And the Jays already know their min/max value on Springer, and will counter offer at that point.

 

There's literally zero advantage to the Jays tossing around $150M at this point, even if they have $150M to spend.

 

This MAY not be strictly true. In negotiation you can try to snag a deal early with an ostensibly strong offer.

 

In real estate people call this a Bully Offer. Say a house is listed for $500k in a hot market and you want it but think it will get bid way up to $600k. Maybe the only way to get it without paying $600k is to make the first offer at $550k, to get the seller to accept without letting their market fully develop.

 

Not all negotiations work in a straightforward, auction-like manner.

[Laika]

"Verlander apparently told Harkins in a phone call that "the league has let this go on for 100 years," and claimed MLB began cracking down on pitchers using doctored substances after it learned teams were hiring chemists and conducting studies to find better ways to increase spin rate, according to court documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle's Chandler Rome."

 

I've long suspected that some teams were doing this. I wonder how many teams are and if it's given the an advantage. Given all the player movement, you'd expect it would be somewhat limited as a player moving from a team with the scientific substance would soon realize his new team is just slapping Bullfrog Sunscreen and rosin together and hoping for the best. The 'good s***' would probably spread fast around the league.

 

That article is pretty revealing. I like this excerpt:

 

"Hey Bubba, it's Gerrit Cole, I was wondering if you could help me out with this sticky situation," the New York Yankees ace wrote in a text on Jan. 17, 2019, according to the paperwork submitted. "We don't see you until May, but we have some road games in April that are in cold-weather places. The stuff I had last year seizes up when it gets cold."

 

Pretty cool insight into the preparation of some pitchers. Being an Ace in 2020 is not the same as being an Ace in 1980... you need to do more than just be supremely gifted and hard working. You also probably need to be well organized, an excellent planner, and a bit of a research and development person. Maybe also a risk taker. It's almost like Gerrit Cole is the CEO of Gerrit Cole Baseball Player.

[Carlos Danger]

So, we have an offer of 5/115 on the table, if another team says "Hey, I can afford that!" and makes the same offer, Springer isn't going to just take the new offer, his agent is going to come back to the Jays and say "we've got another 5/115 offer on the table, can you beat that?"

 

And the Jays already know their min/max value on Springer, and will counter offer at that point.

 

There's literally zero advantage to the Jays tossing around $150M at this point, even if they have $150M to spend.

 

 

I think I basically said the same thing you just said. What I also pointed out, that you just confirmed, is that the Jays are not going to get any discounts because of the market. If Houston and Toronto both offer $115, we need to go at least $125 to persuade him, and so on and so forth upwards. Springer won’t come to us for less then a $5 million difference after taxes..IMO.

[Orgfiller]

"Verlander apparently told Harkins in a phone call that "the league has let this go on for 100 years," and claimed MLB began cracking down on pitchers using doctored substances after it learned teams were hiring chemists and conducting studies to find better ways to increase spin rate, according to court documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle's Chandler Rome."

 

I've long suspected that some teams were doing this. I wonder how many teams are and if it's given the an advantage. Given all the player movement, you'd expect it would be somewhat limited as a player moving from a team with the scientific substance would soon realize his new team is just slapping Bullfrog Sunscreen and rosin together and hoping for the best. The 'good s***' would probably spread fast around the league.

 

The top free agent pitcher in the market saw his spin rate increase dramatically while on the Reds while also previously complaining and claiming that the only way to do this was to use foreign substances on the ball.

 

[Jays24]

So, we have an offer of 5/115 on the table, if another team says "Hey, I can afford that!" and makes the same offer, Springer isn't going to just take the new offer, his agent is going to come back to the Jays and say "we've got another 5/115 offer on the table, can you beat that?"

 

And the Jays already know their min/max value on Springer, and will counter offer at that point.

 

There's literally zero advantage to the Jays tossing around $150M at this point, even if they have $150M to spend.

 

This MAY not be strictly true. In negotiation you can try to snag a deal early with an ostensibly strong offer.

 

In real estate people call this a Bully Offer. Say a house is listed for $500k in a hot market and you want it but think it will get bid way up to $600k. Maybe the only way to get it without paying $600k is to make the first offer at $550k, to get the seller to accept without letting their market fully develop.

 

Not all negotiations work in a straightforward, auction-like manner.

 

But there was an offer from the Mets that was better than ours apparently so we must have increased our initial offer if we really wanted Springer and it was indeed a "2 team race." The report said the Mets offer was 5/150 but I have a hard time believing Springer turned that down so who knows where the exact number is now.

[Laika]

But there was an offer from the Mets that was better than ours apparently so we must have increased our initial offer if we really wanted Springer and it was indeed a "2 team race." The report said the Mets offer was 5/150 but I have a hard time believing Springer turned that down so who knows where the exact number is now.

 

No. It. Did. Not.

 

"The Mets were willing to offer him a five-year deal for a bit less than $150 million, sources told Martino."

 

See the differences?

 

It sounds like the Mets didn't even make an offer and they were only willing to go just shy of $150M.

[King]

The top free agent pitcher in the market saw his spin rate increase dramatically while on the Reds while also previously complaining and claiming that the only way to do this was to use foreign substances on the ball.

 

 

It seems obvious to me that Bauer brought this up the year before his contract year to see if MLB would do anything to stop it. When they didn't do anything, there was no real reason not to use it himself, especially in a contract year.

 

Pretty smart, actually.

[wilko]

It seems obvious to me that Bauer brought this up the year before his contract year to see if MLB would do anything to stop it. When they didn't do anything, there was no real reason not to use it himself, especially in a contract year.

 

Pretty smart, actually.

 

Goodbye morals!

[saskjayfan]

No. It. Did. Not.

 

"The Mets were willing to offer him a five-year deal for a bit less than $150 million, sources told Martino."

 

See the differences?

 

It sounds like the Mets didn't even make an offer and they were only willing to go just shy of $150M.

 

I've seen no reputable report that the Mets have or had an offer of 5 and 150. There was no name guy that tweeted the that the mets had an offer of 5 and 150 out there, but he indicated that report had come from Martino. You go to Martino's twitter page and no where did he post anything like that. Yesterday Martino gave interviews talking about how the Mets don't want to exceed the competitive balance tax limit and ideally would be 5 to 10 mil under to make in season moves. Martino suggested in interviews yesterday the Mets would have to trade salary to sign Springer.

 

I could see the Sox jumping into the Springer mix, I'm not sure who else though. I think there's a chance Springer does sign with us. There should be a Canada for Dummies book(It's not as scary as you think!) that we can give to American free agent targets.

[saskjayfan]

Chachin to the Yankees 800K guaranteed plus 200K in incentives. I hope that's their replacement for Tanaka..lol

[wilko]

Chachin to the Yankees 800K guaranteed plus 200K in incentives. I hope that's their replacement for Tanaka..lol

 

[connorp]

I've seen no reputable report that the Mets have or had an offer of 5 and 150. There was no name guy that tweeted the that the mets had an offer of 5 and 150 out there, but he indicated that report had come from Martino. You go to Martino's twitter page and no where did he post anything like that. Yesterday Martino gave interviews talking about how the Mets don't want to exceed the competitive balance tax limit and ideally would be 5 to 10 mil under to make in season moves. Martino suggested in interviews yesterday the Mets would have to trade salary to sign Springer.

 

I could see the Sox jumping into the Springer mix, I'm not sure who else though. I think there's a chance Springer does sign with us. There should be a Canada for Dummies book(It's not as scary as you think!) that we can give to American free agent targets.

 

Just pure speculation but could be the reason Springer was intent on testing FA in the first place was because he didn’t like what HOU was offering. If they offered say $115m and he was looking for $180m, talks would break down quick. If the numbers stay low, they could be a player. Not like his time there was tumultuous- scandal aside

[saskjayfan]

Just pure speculation but could be the reason Springer was intent on testing FA in the first place was because he didn’t like what HOU was offering. If they offered say $115m and he was looking for $180m, talks would break down quick. If the numbers stay low, they could be a player. Not like his time there was tumultuous- scandal aside

 

I understand Springer's stance. Rendon got 245. That's what he's looking at. Players need to realize the covid really effected things. TV revenues are also an issue that's coming up now. The market is adjusting. Players need to adjust. If Springer was a free agent last year he might have got 160 or 170. The Jays 115 offer is pretty solid. I'm sure the Jays would bump to 125. I don't see where he's getting any more than that anywhere else. The Jays might be bidding against themselves.

[connorp]

I understand Springer's stance. Rendon got 245. That's what he's looking at. Players need to realize the covid really effected things. TV revenues are also an issue that's coming up now. The market is adjusting. Players need to adjust. If Springer was a free agent last year he might have got 160 or 170. The Jays 115 offer is pretty solid. I'm sure the Jays would bump to 125. I don't see where he's getting any more than that anywhere else. The Jays might be bidding against themselves.

 

If nobody else is offering 5/115-125 Jays would be in a good spot. I agree with others though that prob a couple other teams enter the mix at that point and then you get into a thing where Toronto has to beat it somehow for the Canada factor...

 

In any case, it’s encouraging news that Mets could very well be out of the running

[G-Snarls]

But there was an offer from the Mets that was better than ours apparently so we must have increased our initial offer if we really wanted Springer and it was indeed a "2 team race." The report said the Mets offer was 5/150 but I have a hard time believing Springer turned that down so who knows where the exact number is now.

 

Bottom line is the Jays have a golden opportunity to sign him and I hope they can

[G-Snarls]

 

[G-Snarls]

Pine tar... The worst kept secret in baseball?

[P2F]

This is on MLB, yet the players will likely be the only ones villainized in this.

[JaysAllMighty]

It's not just Springer. Bauer and Realmuto are still on the table.

 

You really think they want to play in Buffalo?

[The Iceman]

Never. This has never happened, at least not in modern history.

 

Do any of our very old members remember an offseason this cold? I would not know if any of the MLB strikes had a chilling effect like this. Of course, free agency was way different back then so the comparison is apples to oranges.

 

HEY, i resemble that old remark.

 

YES, and the MLB teams were charged with collusion in the 80s.

 

Three years of collusion

The result of Ueberroth inserting himself into the day-to-day business of each of the teams was a three-year run of collusion in MLB. This isn’t suspected collusion, either: this is “MLB owners were punished for their actions from three consecutive years” collusion.

 

There were 35 free agent players during the offseason that followed the 1985 campaign. Of those 35, four had new teams in 1986, and those four players only had new homes because their old teams didn’t want them any longer. Kirk Gibson, who had batted .287/.364/.518 in 1985 (good for a 140 OPS+), did not receive a contract offer from any club besides the Tigers, the team he was with in ‘85, and he wasn’t the only top player in that situation. Even more curious is Gibson did have potential suitors in the Royals ... until the first ownership meetings of the offseason were held, and suddenly Gibson was down to one option again.

 

While the owners did get in trouble for this when arbitrator Thomas T. Roberts ruled in favor of the players, that didn’t happen until late 1987. This means what was eventually known as “Collusion II” happened the season after Gibson and the other 34 free agents were colluded against.

 

In the winter of 1986-87, once again, just four free agents switched teams. Stars like Andre Dawson returned to their previous teams, and in Dawson’s case, took a pay cut: this despite a strong 1986 campaign, too. Three-fourths of the offseason’s free agents signed one-year deals. The average major-league salary declined for the first time since free agency came to exist, dropping by 16 percent, and, as Helyar wrote in Lords of the Realm, MLB’s profits rose by 15 percent at the same time.

 

The MLBPA filed “Collusion II” before “Collusion I” had even been heard, but these two formal complaints against ownership did not deter them nor Ueberroth. In fact, Roberts ruling against them simply caused them to switch up how they planned to collude: the winter of 1987-88 featured an information sharing plan, so every owner knew what the other teams were doing in free agency, and they could avoid severely outbidding the competition. Grievance number three, “Collusion III,” would come in response to this information sharing bank in January 1988.

 

Collusion fallout, and Fay Vincent

All three cases ruled in favor of the players. “New look” free agency was implemented for the players impacted by collusion, so they could choose to search for new teams without having to give up the contract they had already signed. This is how Gibson ended up on the Dodgers in 1988, just in time to create one of the most memorable moments in World Series history, despite the previous lack of offers from anyone besides the Tigers.

 

Ueberroth was no longer in office by the time MLB and the MLBPA finally settled on what the combined penalties from three years of collusion would be. In the end, it was agreed that MLB owners had to pay the players $280 million, and the players were able to do with that money what they wanted. Fay Vincent, the new commissioner following the sudden death of Ueberroth’s successor, Bart Giamatti, wrote about this settlement in his book.

 

“The single biggest reality you guys have to face up to is collusion. You stole $280 million from the players, and the players are unified to a man around that issue, because you got caught and many of you are still involved.”

 

Marvin Miller, who fought for decades against the owners and for the players, in his own book A Whole Different Ball Game explained that these years of collusion were not just horrible for the players, but also hypocritical of ownership by likening collusion to the Black Sox scandal of 1919:

 

“It was undeniably, an agreement not to field the best team possible — tantamount to fixing, not just games, but entire pennant races, including all post-season series. If players had been found guilty of making agreements not to compete, the commissioner would have banned them for life and justifiably.”

 

The owners did not listen to Vincent, who seemed to be the only person in the room who understood why the players were upset about collusion, and instead staged a lockout before the 1990 season. This lockout began in February, and kept spring training from ever starting — it also ended with Vincent’s interference, which angered the owners to the point of attempting to remove him from office.

[Jimcanuck]

You really think they want to play in Buffalo?

 

$$$$

[wilko]

Pine tar... The worst kept secret in baseball?

 

 

[Brownie19]

I believe the report said the Jays original offer was $115M. For all we know, they have already countered with higher values - or maybe they are sticking to their guns on this. Who knows. I don't think we should get too fixated on the #'s.