Offseason Roster Thread (2020-2021)

[Abomination]

I wonder what Oakland would think about something like Martin and Teoscar for Khris Davis (who we'd presumably cut) and Laureano? It wouldn't change our ability to sign Springer either.

[L54]

I wonder what Oakland would think about something like Martin and Teoscar for Khris Davis (who we'd presumably cut) and Laureano? It wouldn't change our ability to sign Springer either.

 

No thanks that sounds awful

[connorp]

No thanks that sounds awful

 

I held off commenting as I wasn’t sure if it was serious

[Abomination]

I would hate that for us.

 

Why? Laureano is likely a 3-4 WAR legitimate CF who has room for further improvement and has 4 years of control remaining. He addresses an immediate need, and we still have the flexibility to make a significant splash with someone like Springer. Laureano is likely the upper range of the expected outcome for Martin in two or three years and fits our core's timeline perfectly.

[Jimcanuck]

Sustained winning is not thrown out the window because you promote your most advanced prospect aggressively.

 

Can’t become a sustainable winner if you never start winning

 

As I noted earlier, there is a situation where the Jays forgo the business loss and start Martin's clock in 2021. But it's rather unlikely, IMO.

[Abomination]

You're also including Teoscar for an extremely bad contract and I'm not sure why.

 

It's one year of a bad contract, and there's no way Oakland does the deal straight up. That is what I think it would require to make the trade happen, and I think it's a deal that would be beneficial to both teams. Just my opinion.

[saskjayfan]

As I noted earlier, there is a situation where the Jays forgo the business loss and start Martin's clock in 2021. But it's rather unlikely, IMO.

 

You could have said the same of Kirk last year at the beginning of the year, but he was promoted. The clock did start, so maybe the mindset has changed. Getting the most high upside prospects up at the same time gives you more opportunities in the playoffs. If Martin comes up next year that gives him, Pearson, Biggio, Vlad, Cavan, Bo, and Kirk 5 years to go for it in the playoffs.

[Grant77]

I wonder what Oakland would think about something like Martin and Teoscar for Khris Davis (who we'd presumably cut) and Laureano? It wouldn't change our ability to sign Springer either.

 

I'd be looking to get Matt Chapman if Martin is going to be in any deal with Oakland.

[Jimcanuck]

You could have said the same of Kirk last year at the beginning of the year, but he was promoted. The clock did start, so maybe the mindset has changed. Getting the most high upside prospects up at the same time gives you more opportunities in the playoffs. If Martin comes up next year that gives him, Pearson, Biggio, Vlad, Cavan, Bo, and Kirk 5 years to go for it in the playoffs.

 

Who knows. I won't be surprised if Kirk is in AAA at the start of the season for the length of time needed to regain the year of service.

[Jays24]

Who knows. I won't be surprised if Kirk is in AAA at the start of the season for the length of time needed to regain the year of service.

 

This is exactly what I'd expect. We've run out of options on Mcguire right? Seems right that we'd give him one last shot as the backup.

[Laika]

Why? Laureano is likely a 3-4 WAR legitimate CF who has room for further improvement and has 4 years of control remaining. He addresses an immediate need, and we still have the flexibility to make a significant splash with someone like Springer. Laureano is likely the upper range of the expected outcome for Martin in two or three years and fits our core's timeline perfectly.

 

Austin Martin's upper range is Alex Bregman...

[saskjayfan]

Austin Martin's upper range is Alex Bregman...

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that. The idea of trading 3 years of Teo who might be turning into an elite offensive talent for 4 years of a solid but not spectacular player and have to eat 17 mil plus give up 7 years of Martin seems insane. Just go sign Springer..lol.

[Abomination]

Austin Martin's upper range is Alex Bregman...

 

Not for the upper range of any expected outcome, which is what I said. He's a top prospect for good reason, but if he consistently puts up 3 to 4 WAR, we should be jumping for joy.

[Laika]

Not for the upper range of any expected outcome, which is what I said. He's a top prospect for good reason, but if he consistently puts up 3 to 4 WAR, we should be jumping for joy.

 

I'd be satisfied at 3+ WAR but for a 70 hitter with power and athleticism that's not the upper end of my expected outcomes (whatever that even means). I think 3-4 WAR is the expected talent level but the chance of him being an elite player is very real and not just some 95th percentile thing.

[saskjayfan]

The one player I don't think I've seen us linked to is Trevor Rosenthal. Am I the only one who thinks he's be a great add? I feel like he will get something similar to Treinen.

[Abomination]

The one player I don't think I've seen us linked to is Trevor Rosenthal. Am I the only one who thinks he's be a great add? I feel like he will get something similar to Treinen.

 

Sign me up for that. I think he'll get more though.

[Laika]

The one player I don't think I've seen us linked to is Trevor Rosenthal. Am I the only one who thinks he's be a great add? I feel like he will get something similar to Treinen.

 

I haven't seen Rosenthal linked to anybody. He might be asking too much - he has a bad season and a lost season within the last three years. I wouldn't exactly be targeting him

[Key22]

I spit out my coffee when you suggested we give JBJ a 4 year Contract. Hard No.

 

But this is the problem - no team other than Jays offered Martin 5 or Ryu 4. Indeed it would have taken 5 to land Hendriks!

 

That is the reality. If someone offers JBJ 3 (which is a possibility) the Jays have to go 4. Or they will have to significantly beef up the AAV. People scoffed at JTR landing a 5 year contract - he already has a $100m/5 offer on the table. The Jays would have to offer $120m/6 and probably more.

 

DJL got 6 years. Now granted he wanted to play for New York and took a hometown discount but he still landed 6 years and he was projected to only land 4.

 

If the Jays want anyone they have to give the player more years and more money. Hence the 4 years to JBJ. Maybe teams are only going to offer him 2 - fine but we'd still need to go 3. After all - there is precedent - we did give Morales 3 years!

[Jays24]

But this is the problem - no team other than Jays offered Martin 5 or Ryu 4. Indeed it would have taken 5 to land Hendriks!

 

That is the reality. If someone offers JBJ 3 (which is a possibility) the Jays have to go 4. Or they will have to significantly beef up the AAV. People scoffed at JTR landing a 5 year contract - he already has a $100m/5 offer on the table. The Jays would have to offer $120m/6 and probably more.

 

DJL got 6 years. Now granted he wanted to play for New York and took a hometown discount but he still landed 6 years and he was projected to only land 4.

 

If the Jays want anyone they have to give the player more years and more money. Hence the 4 years to JBJ. Maybe teams are only going to offer him 2 - fine but we'd still need to go 3. After all - there is precedent - we did give Morales 3 years!

 

You do realize that JBJ isn't good enough for you to get in a bidding war for? He's a guy who you take if he fits your price/timeline.

 

Now that differs from some of the elite free agents you mentioned and Springer, who most of us hope we can outbid teams for.

[Key22]

Martin was the consensus number 2 overall draft pick. He's one week younger than Vlad. It's not like he's an 18 year old who is still physically maturing.

 

College is not that different than the lower levels of the minors. He was a 3 year college player who had a .500 OBP the last 2 years when you combine the years.

 

He was at the alternative site facing AA and AAA pitchers last year. He's the 20th ranked prospect in baseball. I don't need to see him play a full year a A then another full year at AA and a full year at AAA with him making his appearance at the MLB in 2024 in his age 25 season. Scouts believe his hit tool is really good. Martin is part of my win now strategy because I think he's really good.

 

My ideal scenario is sign Springer and Gurriel, Grichuk and Teo rotate through the DH position. Vlad plays third to start the year. Martin starts in AA and if he does well a quick move to AAA and if he's killing it you can't hold him back. I can see a scenario where he comes up mid season and Vlad moves to 1st/DH.

 

The reality is this assumes we have no injuries. We will likely have some injuries leading to Martin's opportunities.

 

You don't buy a Ferrari and park it in your garage for your friends to look at when they come over. You drive it.

 

Okay - let's assume that Martin is an all-star caliber CF by 2022. I mean Bo Bichette has lit it up pretty much from day one so it's possible. If this is the case - why bother with Springer. The Jays are not a WS caliber team adding Springer. So why spend the $25m a year for him? Makes no sense. Unless he is willing to move to RF in 2022. martin apparently has a crappy arm so it rules out RF.

 

No point in signing an infielder because apparently, Biggio is terrible anywhere except 2B yet management implies he can play all over the IF and OF. So why were they in on DJL?

 

I like JTR but in terms of WAR Catching was solid for the Jays and we have a boatload of supposedly great catching prospects. I suppose people believe in Jansen more than me. He is been a replacement-level catcher so far. Aquire JTR you have Jansen as a trade chip.

 

I thought Martin wanted to be a shortstop - has that changed?

[Key22]

You do realize that JBJ isn't good enough for you to get in a bidding war for? He's a guy who you take if he fits your price/timeline.

 

Now that differs from some of the elite free agents you mentioned and Springer, who most of us hope we can outbid teams for.

 

I think the issue is we don't really know what the Jays brass really thinks of the team at this stage. They shot their mouth off implying they are in win-now mode and Shapiro implies they might go after 2 of the top 4 free agents. So my comments here are based on what Shatkins have said on the fan 590.

 

So it is signing a top guy and 2-second tier guys and only signing pitchers in the top of the rotation etc then if we go based on what they are saying then they don't seem to be worried about where Martin or Biggio will play. If they signed DJL - he would have been at 2b and Biggio would be moved to another position or traded.

 

The Jays brass has said they want to improve defense and they want "run prevention" so JBJ is vastly superior defensively to any of the Jays outfielders. He is a strong defender in a position of need. And he's an okay hitter that shows some progress. Maybe he is the "filler" until Martin is ready.

 

I guess - if I am GM I don't feel this team is ready to win now. We don't know what Pearson or Vlad or Biggio or Teoscar or Jansen really are yet. Vlad has shown that he is a rather horrible defender and so at this point, he is a DH. And so far his bat hasn't been a big plus so at DH he'd only be middling. We'll see if the weight loss will help him but if he hits like he hit last year - meh.

 

The problem with upgrading pitching is there is Bauer. The rest are middling or have various health problems. All kind of fourth starters or lower and so why bother?

 

If you don't think you can win now - then stand pat (worked for "Stand Pat" Pat Gillick). See if Biggio improves, see if Groshans can be an all star caliber 3b, maybe Jansen is the next Yan Gomes. Sit tight and wait for 2022.

[max silver]

I think the issue is we don't really know what the Jays brass really thinks of the team at this stage. They shot their mouth off implying they are in win-now mode and Shapiro implies they might go after 2 of the top 4 free agents. So my comments here are based on what Shatkins have said on the fan 590.

 

So it is signing a top guy and 2-second tier guys and only signing pitchers in the top of the rotation etc then if we go based on what they are saying then they don't seem to be worried about where Martin or Biggio will play. If they signed DJL - he would have been at 2b and Biggio would be moved to another position or traded.

 

The Jays brass has said they want to improve defense and they want "run prevention" so JBJ is vastly superior defensively to any of the Jays outfielders. He is a strong defender in a position of need. And he's an okay hitter that shows some progress. Maybe he is the "filler" until Martin is ready.

 

I guess - if I am GM I don't feel this team is ready to win now. We don't know what Pearson or Vlad or Biggio or Teoscar or Jansen really are yet. Vlad has shown that he is a rather horrible defender and so at this point, he is a DH. And so far his bat hasn't been a big plus so at DH he'd only be middling. We'll see if the weight loss will help him but if he hits like he hit last year - meh.

 

The problem with upgrading pitching is there is Bauer. The rest are middling or have various health problems. All kind of fourth starters or lower and so why bother?

 

If you don't think you can win now - then stand pat (worked for "Stand Pat" Pat Gillick). See if Biggio improves, see if Groshans can be an all star caliber 3b, maybe Jansen is the next Yan Gomes. Sit tight and wait for 2022.

 

If an impact player like Springer is signed it's not like he's only around for only 2021. Much like the Ryu signing he will be with the club for many years to come in the future. On one hand you portray doom and gloom about how bad the existing roster is, but then you also advocate for signing mediocre veterans like Jackie Bradley Jr. who will do very little to actually improving the clubs chance to win. Waiting around for the future wastes a chance to continue building the roster today. Team payroll is incredibly low, and there looks to be a chance to obtain some nice upgrades through free agency. Why pull the rug out from under the young core instead of supplementing the roster and giving them the chance to vault into contention?

[Jays24]

If an impact player like Springer is signed it's not like he's only around for only 2021. Much like the Ryu signing he will be with the club for many years to come in the future. On one hand you portray doom and gloom about how bad the existing roster is, but then you also advocate for signing mediocre veterans like Jackie Bradley Jr. who will do very little to actually improving the clubs chance to win. Waiting around for the future wastes a chance to continue building the roster today. Team payroll is incredibly low, and there looks to be a chance to obtain some nice upgrades through free agency. Why pull the rug out from under the young core instead of supplementing the roster and giving them the chance to vault into contention?

 

I think a lot of people are on edge of striking out this free agency. I'm still confident we will get Springer since Bauer will probably be out of our price range. Now if Springer signs elsewhere, I might storm the Rogers Center like those MAGA idiots in the US lol.

[The Iceman]

Austin Martin's upper range is Alex Bregman...

 

I think you need to readjust your expectations.

Martin played 2 games at SS while at Vandy. He was not a College SS and for sure not a MLB SS.

 

Bregman is a MLB All Star/Super Star SS

[RobinThicc]

Andy Martino:

 

"After Kluber threw a well-attended bullpen session in Florida last week, several teams began bidding aggressively, including a previously unknown suitor: the Toronto Blue Jays. This pushed Kluber’s base salary past what many in the industry expected, considering his recent injury history.

 

According to league sources, the Yanks actually did not submit the highest offer for Kluber. There were multiple teams willing to pay more than $10 million."

 

https://sny.tv/articles/how-corey-kluber-deal-happened-and-what-it-means-for-yankees-rotation

[Jays24]

Andy Martino:

 

"After Kluber threw a well-attended bullpen session in Florida last week, several teams began bidding aggressively, including a previously unknown suitor: the Toronto Blue Jays. This pushed Kluber’s base salary past what many in the industry expected, considering his recent injury history.

 

According to league sources, the Yanks actually did not submit the highest offer for Kluber. There were multiple teams willing to pay more than $10 million."

 

https://sny.tv/articles/how-corey-kluber-deal-happened-and-what-it-means-for-yankees-rotation

 

We will eventually finish 1st place in one of these races... just hope its something we really want.

[Laika]

I think you need to readjust your expectations.

Martin played 2 games at SS while at Vandy. He was not a College SS and for sure not a MLB SS.

 

Bregman is a MLB All Star/Super Star SS

 

Okay buddy

 

You might want to check Bregman's primary position

 

Martin and him have the same tools, more or less

[connorp]

Andy Martino:

 

"After Kluber threw a well-attended bullpen session in Florida last week, several teams began bidding aggressively, including a previously unknown suitor: the Toronto Blue Jays. This pushed Kluber’s base salary past what many in the industry expected, considering his recent injury history.

 

According to league sources, the Yanks actually did not submit the highest offer for Kluber. There were multiple teams willing to pay more than $10 million."

 

https://sny.tv/articles/how-corey-kluber-deal-happened-and-what-it-means-for-yankees-rotation

 

It’s almost trolling at this point lol

[saskjayfan]

Okay buddy

 

You might want to check Bregman's primary position

 

Martin and him have the same tools, more or less

 

Yeah last time I checked Bregman was a third baseman. I'm pretty sure Correa is Huston's primary shortstop! Bregman a 3 year college player like Martin. Martin actually had better college stats. Bregman played his age 21 season after being drafted in A Ball. The following year he started as AA moved to AAA and made his debut in the bigs and got 217 at bats with a 16% better than league average bat in his first year. If Martin follows the same path he would be up this year mid summer. I'm not saying Martin will be Bregman, but they have the same pedigree. You at least prepare for the possibility a guy like Martin might be ready to come up next year.

[Spanky99]

It’s almost trolling at this point lol

 

Hahaha... brutal.