Offseason Roster Thread (2020-2021)

[Key22]

Looking at the second tier it would seem to be that the Jays could go after a bit of quantity in improvements.

 

These 2nd tier players would be an upgrade as very solid MLB players and would probably cost significantly fewer dollars and years. Springer is the best CF but he will probably command 6 years - so in the last 2 he won't be in CF.

 

Jackie Bradly Jr is likely to be a better CF defensively for more years is younger and probably costs us a lot less in dollars and years.

He is 30 maybe you can land him on a 3-4 year deal where he is still solid defensively. This leaves plenty of financial flexibility. He has shown some signs of improvement with the bat - who knows maybe he is a late bloomer. Looking up Baseball Reference - in the shortened seasons - Springer was 2.2 WAR - JBJ was 2.1 WAR. So in a "what have you done for me lately" kind of world - JBJ has done a lot. Maybe he is the better deal at 4 years than Springer will be at 6years.

 

Sign a Kolton Wong at second base - so you have added two very good defensive players with okay bats. But again it won't take 5-6 year contract. You might be able to land both Wong and JBJ or a little more than one Springer.

 

Move Biggio to third. Or keep going and sign a Tommy La Stella at third (and second) or Simmons at Short moving Bo and give the team more flexibility)

 

Leaves more money next off-season. All these guys would be on less money and shorter contracts instead of all your eggs in one basket. It also allows more trading options and I believe we also don't lose a draft pick.

 

Option A JBJ+(one of Simmons, La Stella, Didi, Wong) - 4-year contracts

OR

Option B Springer 6 year contract.

 

In terms of WAR and financials which option is better?

 

I'm starting to like option A. It's not like Springer is a once in a generation talent.

[saskjayfan]

Looking at the second tier it would seem to be that the Jays could go after a bit of quantity in improvements.

 

These 2nd tier players would be an upgrade as very solid MLB players and would probably cost significantly fewer dollars and years. Springer is the best CF but he will probably command 6 years - so in the last 2 he won't be in CF.

 

Jackie Bradly Jr is likely to be a better CF defensively for more years is younger and probably costs us a lot less in dollars and years.

He is 30 maybe you can land him on a 3-4 year deal where he is still solid defensively. This leaves plenty of financial flexibility. He has shown some signs of improvement with the bat - who knows maybe he is a late bloomer. Looking up Baseball Reference - in the shortened seasons - Springer was 2.2 WAR - JBJ was 2.1 WAR. So in a "what have you done for me lately" kind of world - JBJ has done a lot. Maybe he is the better deal at 4 years than Springer will be at 6years.

 

Sign a Kolton Wong at second base - so you have added two very good defensive players with okay bats. But again it won't take 5-6 year contract. You might be able to land both Wong and JBJ or a little more than one Springer.

 

Move Biggio to third. Or keep going and sign a Tommy La Stella at third (and second) or Simmons at Short moving Bo and give the team more flexibility)

 

Leaves more money next off-season. All these guys would be on less money and shorter contracts instead of all your eggs in one basket. It also allows more trading options and I believe we also don't lose a draft pick.

 

Option A JBJ+(one of Simmons, La Stella, Didi, Wong) - 4-year contracts

OR

Option B Springer 6 year contract.

 

In terms of WAR and financials which option is better?

 

I'm starting to like option A. It's not like Springer is a once in a generation talent.

 

This team needs pitching and where are you playing Martin the next 4 years?

[Jays24]

Looking at the second tier it would seem to be that the Jays could go after a bit of quantity in improvements.

 

These 2nd tier players would be an upgrade as very solid MLB players and would probably cost significantly fewer dollars and years. Springer is the best CF but he will probably command 6 years - so in the last 2 he won't be in CF.

 

Jackie Bradly Jr is likely to be a better CF defensively for more years is younger and probably costs us a lot less in dollars and years.

He is 30 maybe you can land him on a 3-4 year deal where he is still solid defensively. This leaves plenty of financial flexibility. He has shown some signs of improvement with the bat - who knows maybe he is a late bloomer. Looking up Baseball Reference - in the shortened seasons - Springer was 2.2 WAR - JBJ was 2.1 WAR. So in a "what have you done for me lately" kind of world - JBJ has done a lot. Maybe he is the better deal at 4 years than Springer will be at 6years.

 

Sign a Kolton Wong at second base - so you have added two very good defensive players with okay bats. But again it won't take 5-6 year contract. You might be able to land both Wong and JBJ or a little more than one Springer.

 

Move Biggio to third. Or keep going and sign a Tommy La Stella at third (and second) or Simmons at Short moving Bo and give the team more flexibility)

 

Leaves more money next off-season. All these guys would be on less money and shorter contracts instead of all your eggs in one basket. It also allows more trading options and I believe we also don't lose a draft pick.

 

Option A JBJ+(one of Simmons, La Stella, Didi, Wong) - 4-year contracts

OR

Option B Springer 6 year contract.

 

In terms of WAR and financials which option is better?

 

I'm starting to like option A. It's not like Springer is a once in a generation talent.

 

Biggio is a below average 3B so I don't want to move him there just to fit Wong here. Id only move Biggio and Bo off their positions for a MAJOR upgrade.

 

Now while I really don't want to see Grichuk at CF for a full season again, I'm not a huge fan of Bradley Jr. Love the defense but not a fan of the bat. Would only like him as a stopgap solution, which could work if we can put Martin out there in 2022.

[max silver]

Looking at the second tier it would seem to be that the Jays could go after a bit of quantity in improvements.

 

These 2nd tier players would be an upgrade as very solid MLB players and would probably cost significantly fewer dollars and years. Springer is the best CF but he will probably command 6 years - so in the last 2 he won't be in CF.

 

Jackie Bradly Jr is likely to be a better CF defensively for more years is younger and probably costs us a lot less in dollars and years.

He is 30 maybe you can land him on a 3-4 year deal where he is still solid defensively. This leaves plenty of financial flexibility. He has shown some signs of improvement with the bat - who knows maybe he is a late bloomer. Looking up Baseball Reference - in the shortened seasons - Springer was 2.2 WAR - JBJ was 2.1 WAR. So in a "what have you done for me lately" kind of world - JBJ has done a lot. Maybe he is the better deal at 4 years than Springer will be at 6years.

 

Sign a Kolton Wong at second base - so you have added two very good defensive players with okay bats. But again it won't take 5-6 year contract. You might be able to land both Wong and JBJ or a little more than one Springer.

 

Move Biggio to third. Or keep going and sign a Tommy La Stella at third (and second) or Simmons at Short moving Bo and give the team more flexibility)

 

Leaves more money next off-season. All these guys would be on less money and shorter contracts instead of all your eggs in one basket. It also allows more trading options and I believe we also don't lose a draft pick.

 

Option A JBJ+(one of Simmons, La Stella, Didi, Wong) - 4-year contracts

OR

Option B Springer 6 year contract.

 

In terms of WAR and financials which option is better?

 

I'm starting to like option A. It's not like Springer is a once in a generation talent.

 

La Stella isn't rumored to bring in a very sizeable contract, MLBTR has a prediction of only 2 years and 14 million. I'd say take a shot at signing both La Stella and Springer as well.

[Key22]

This team needs pitching and where are you playing Martin the next 4 years?

 

Signing Springer creates the same problem as JBJ with regards to Martin and Martin is no lock to be a stud by 2022.

 

The Jays seem to be trying to win sooner rather than later so if you are in the win-now mode you really aren't concerned with Martin's position in 2022 or 2023.

[Deadpool]

I an afree with this s***, @ iytsra...

 

May bw vavy!

A loiove we akk fws nabv;

 

Guys, I think Spank is having a stroke...

[BTS]

This forum would turn on JBJ in about two weeks. He’s a left-handed Pillar who looks lost at the plate for months at a time, and there was a jubilant reaction when Pillar was traded for salary relief.

 

It’s actually weird that we see JBJ offered as a target daily and no mentions whatsoever of Pillar.

[G-Snarls]

Possible Austin Martin scenarios if you sign Springer now

 

1. Martin busts (I certainly hope not)

2. They like Martin better at SS and move him there

3. Martin comes up and plays CF well just as Springer is ready to move to RF due to decline in speed/range

4. Martin progresses rapidly, both he and Springer are awesome CF options in 2 years and you trade one of them

 

No need to worry about where Martin will play at this point

[BTS]

Possible Austin Martin scenarios if you sign Springer now

 

1. Martin busts

2. They like Martin better at SS and move him there

3. Martin comes up and plays CF well just as Springer is ready to move to RF due to decline in speed/range

4. Martin progresses rapidly, both he and Springer are awesome CF options in 2 years and you trade one of them

 

No need to worry about where Martin will play at this point

 

Yup. Prospects being blocked isn’t really a thing in baseball. An NL 1B might have someone in his way a couple times a decade.

[Brownie19]

Looking at the second tier it would seem to be that the Jays could go after a bit of quantity in improvements.

 

These 2nd tier players would be an upgrade as very solid MLB players and would probably cost significantly fewer dollars and years. Springer is the best CF but he will probably command 6 years - so in the last 2 he won't be in CF.

 

Jackie Bradly Jr is likely to be a better CF defensively for more years is younger and probably costs us a lot less in dollars and years.

He is 30 maybe you can land him on a 3-4 year deal where he is still solid defensively. This leaves plenty of financial flexibility. He has shown some signs of improvement with the bat - who knows maybe he is a late bloomer. Looking up Baseball Reference - in the shortened seasons - Springer was 2.2 WAR - JBJ was 2.1 WAR. So in a "what have you done for me lately" kind of world - JBJ has done a lot. Maybe he is the better deal at 4 years than Springer will be at 6years.

 

Sign a Kolton Wong at second base - so you have added two very good defensive players with okay bats. But again it won't take 5-6 year contract. You might be able to land both Wong and JBJ or a little more than one Springer.

 

Move Biggio to third. Or keep going and sign a Tommy La Stella at third (and second) or Simmons at Short moving Bo and give the team more flexibility)

 

Leaves more money next off-season. All these guys would be on less money and shorter contracts instead of all your eggs in one basket. It also allows more trading options and I believe we also don't lose a draft pick.

 

Option A JBJ+(one of Simmons, La Stella, Didi, Wong) - 4-year contracts

OR

Option B Springer 6 year contract.

 

In terms of WAR and financials which option is better?

 

I'm starting to like option A. It's not like Springer is a once in a generation talent.

 

I spit out my coffee when you suggested we give JBJ a 4 year Contract. Hard No.

[connorp]

I spit out my coffee when you suggested we give JBJ a 4 year Contract. Hard No.

 

I don’t even think he’s alone. Others have floated out idea of signing him to multi-year deal. Gross

[Grant77]

I don’t even think he’s alone. Others have floated out idea of signing him to multi-year deal. Gross

 

Two years sounds ok to me if we also get a big name 3B, but certainly no more than that.

[saskjayfan]

Signing Springer creates the same problem as JBJ with regards to Martin and Martin is no lock to be a stud by 2022.

 

The Jays seem to be trying to win sooner rather than later so if you are in the win-now mode you really aren't concerned with Martin's position in 2022 or 2023.

 

Martin was the consensus number 2 overall draft pick. He's one week younger than Vlad. It's not like he's an 18 year old who is still physically maturing.

 

College is not that different than the lower levels of the minors. He was a 3 year college player who had a .500 OBP the last 2 years when you combine the years.

 

He was at the alternative site facing AA and AAA pitchers last year. He's the 20th ranked prospect in baseball. I don't need to see him play a full year a A then another full year at AA and a full year at AAA with him making his appearance at the MLB in 2024 in his age 25 season. Scouts believe his hit tool is really good. Martin is part of my win now strategy because I think he's really good.

 

My ideal scenario is sign Springer and Gurriel, Grichuk and Teo rotate through the DH position. Vlad plays third to start the year. Martin starts in AA and if he does well a quick move to AAA and if he's killing it you can't hold him back. I can see a scenario where he comes up mid season and Vlad moves to 1st/DH.

 

The reality is this assumes we have no injuries. We will likely have some injuries leading to Martin's opportunities.

 

You don't buy a Ferrari and park it in your garage for your friends to look at when they come over. You drive it.

[Jimcanuck]

Chance Jays start Martin's clock in 2021 is virtually nil.

[saskjayfan]

Chance Jays start Martin's clock in 2021 is virtually nil.

 

So...mid season the Jays are in a playoff position. Cavan Biggio goes down with a season ending injury and Martin has a 1.050 .OPS that started in AA and has continued in AAA. You are not going to bring him up.

[Jimcanuck]

So...mid season the Jays are in a playoff position. Cavan Biggio goes down with a season ending injury and Martin has a 1.050 .OPS that started in AA and has continued in AAA. You are not going to bring him up.

 

The virtually nil might apply in this case. A lot of "ifs". Jays will be more inclined to bring up whoever is the MIF injury depth in AAA (probably Urena).

[Jays24]

Ya I doubt Martin's clock begins in 2021. 2022 would be the best case scenario no matter what imo. I'm sure we'd use other players as plug ins if key players were to go down next season.

 

Also I see Martin's position in the majors being determined by our need at the time. If we sign Springer and we think Martin would be a great CF... then I'm sure he'd start off playing LF/RF. Once he proves he can do that at a high level then we try to worry about the "issue". By that time, maybe Springer would be better off as a corner outfielder himself.

[saskjayfan]

The virtually nil might apply in this case. A lot of "ifs". Jays will be more inclined to bring up whoever is the MIF injury depth in AAA.

 

That's going to be Martin because he's going to kill it! It could be Bo, Vlad, Cavan or Rowdy. There's less odds that someone doesn't get hurt than they all stay healthy. Even if they all stay healthy Martin could come up. You don't hold top prospects back when you are a playoff team. If he's killing it in the minors you bring him up to see if he can help the big club.

 

My whole premise is based on my belief that Martin will kill it this year in the minors. You obviously aren't as high on him as I am. That's fine.

[Jimcanuck]

That's going to be Martin because he's going to kill it! It could be Bo, Vlad, Cavan or Rowdy. There's less odds that someone doesn't get hurt than they all stay healthy. Even if they all stay healthy Martin could come up. You don't hold top prospects back when you are a playoff team. If he's killing it in the minors you bring him up to see if he can help the big club.

 

My whole premise is based on my belief that Martin will kill it this year in the minors. You obviously aren't as high on him as I am. That's fine.

 

No, I am high on Martin. But there is a reality here, baseball is a business.

[Jays24]

That's going to be Martin because he's going to kill it! It could be Bo, Vlad, Cavan or Rowdy. There's less odds that someone doesn't get hurt than they all stay healthy. Even if they all stay healthy Martin could come up. You don't hold top prospects back when you are a playoff team. If he's killing it in the minors you bring him up to see if he can help the big club.

 

My whole premise is based on my belief that Martin will kill it this year in the minors. You obviously aren't as high on him as I am. That's fine.

 

If he kills it in AAA, I think he could still use some time to determine whether he could play a premium position at a high level (SS/CF). Maybe the Jays already know the answer to that question so this could just be a fans take who haven't gotten a chance to see him properly yet.

[Jays24]

No, I am high on Martin. But there is a reality here, baseball is a business.

 

Agreed. You want him to get all his struggles out before you start the clock. Only way you start the clock is if he forces your hand in the minors by dominating. Heck, even then we've seen countless examples of service time manipulation.

[saskjayfan]

If he kills it in AAA, I think he could still use some time to determine whether he could play a premium position at a high level (SS/CF). Maybe the Jays already know the answer to that question so this could just be a fans take who haven't gotten a chance to see him properly yet.

 

I'll include it in my bold predictions thread. Martin makes his debut with the Jays in 2021. The consensus around here is "no chancey". It's not like I would be counting on for sure. I just see it as a more realistic potential than most it would seem. The Jays brought up a 21 year old Kirk who hadn't played above A ball to support a 7th place playoff team. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that we see Martin in 2021.

 

Regardless this team needs pitching!

Edited January 17, 2021 by saskjayfan

[L54]

I could 100% see Martin in Toronto in 2021. If he is torching AA and the Jays find themselves competing it might be the easiest upgrade they can make. Everyone here would be begging for his promotion.

[THANOS]

No, I am high on Martin. But there is a reality here, baseball is a business.

 

One thing you may be missing in the argument is the case that the core is all up and a couple years away from hitting their primes. I don't think control manipulation is a large factor to consider when the core is all up.

 

This takes the wind out of the business argument a bit.

[Jimcanuck]

One thing you may be missing in the argument is the case that the core is all up and a couple years away from hitting their primes. I don't think control manipulation is a large factor to consider when the core is all up.

 

This takes the wind out of the business argument a bit.

 

If the goal is a window of contention, this holds water. if the goal is sustained winning through player development and a constant pipeline, it does not.

[THANOS]

I could 100% see Martin in Toronto in 2021. If he is torching AA and the Jays find themselves competing it might be the easiest upgrade they can make. Everyone here would be begging for his promotion.

 

Absolutely. I think him and even SWR have fairly strong chances of being the prospects who see time in the majors this season. Many analysts see it that way for SWR as it is, and Martin just seems like the prime guy to make that happen for himself, all things considered.

[THANOS]

If the goal is a window of contention, this holds water. if the goal is sustained winning through player development and a constant pipeline, it does not.

 

Part of player development that this front office places high value in is intangibles like leadership skills and being a "good teammate." Stuff like that is probably best achieved in the majors with the players he'll be spending all of his 20s around.

 

This is under the impression that scouts and internal noise is correct on him, that he's basically so advanced in his hitting and defense that all he needs is a short stint in the minors. If that's true, than the hulk of development is intangibles and the mental side of the game, which can all be developed most in the majors with the core.

[Laika]

They brought Kirk up in 2020 because he is advanced and the team was in it. Of course they'll bring up Martin and anyone if the circumstances dictate.

[Jimcanuck]

This is under the impression that scouts and internal noise is correct on him, that he's basically so advanced in his hitting and defense that all he needs is a short stint in the minors. If that's true, than the hulk of development is intangibles and the mental side of the game, which can all be developed most in the majors with the core.

 

Isn't the prevailing wisdom that these things are best developed in the minors and specifically the higher levels?

[L54]

If the goal is a window of contention, this holds water. if the goal is sustained winning through player development and a constant pipeline, it does not.

 

Sustained winning is not thrown out the window because you promote your most advanced prospect aggressively.

 

Can’t become a sustainable winner if you never start winning