Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[intentional wok]

Remember in the alternate universe where instead of rolling with these guys, Montoyo pulled them for equally s***** also-rans available to him at the time who blew the games anyways and people still used these games to complain about his BP management?

 

I'm not really on Team Fire Montoyo, but six or seven pen arms were available on the date I mentioned. If someone else f***ed it up we'd be bitching all the same, but Chuck put zero per cent of his brain into salvaging what was a likely win. It was a pretty, pretty, pretty bad thing to watch.

[Omar]

The remember when Montoyo thread can go on for a while.

 

Remember when Montoyo brought in Richards in a game where we were leading 8 to 0? Then the next day brought in Soria in a two run game.

[Jays24]

Looks like this thread needs to shut down... Atkins said he's coming back. Sighhh

[BlueJays]

That's not really surprising but expected.

[John_Havok]

Looks like this thread needs to shut down... Atkins said he's coming back. Sighhh

 

Well, he's still under contract for 2022, so ... as of now, yeah of course he's coming back. If they announce an extension... may Allah save us.

[Daniel Labude]

Looks like this thread needs to shut down... Atkins said he's coming back. Sighhh

 

Well the thread wasn't for a specific time frame and the issue remains lol

[Omar]

Looks like this thread needs to shut down... Atkins said he's coming back. Sighhh

 

I got a feeling this thread will be valid through the 2022 season.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Honest question, did it seem like Charlie actually started making better decisions as the season went on? Or was his idiocy just being masked by the Jays winning more?

[Abomination]

Honest question, did it seem like Charlie actually started making better decisions as the season went on? Or was his idiocy just being masked by the Jays winning more?

 

He had better BP options later in the year. Early on he managed sort of like the Rays but didn't have the bullets to do it with.

[Jays24]

He had better BP options later in the year. Early on he managed sort of like the Rays but didn't have the bullets to do it with.

 

This was my problem with him all year. He should have leaned on our starters more when our bullpen was full of scrubs. Guy thought he had the Rays bullpen and lost us plenty of games because of that.

 

I thought not being able to figure that out was reason enough to fire him but I guess Shatkins are probably taking blame on themselves for that.

[Stangstag]

Honest question, did it seem like Charlie actually started making better decisions as the season went on? Or was his idiocy just being masked by the Jays winning more?

 

I’d say he got somewhat better. Still bad though.

 

The bad

- still kept playing Reese instead of Kirk

- pinch hitting Valera all the time

- using high-leverage arms when the game was lopsided

- barely used Romano when we still had guys like Hand and Soria

 

Things he DID do better towards the end (September) were

- less bunting (no bunting??)

- leaning harder on Romano

- pinch hitting earlier in games

- defensive replacements

[Spanky99]

I got a feeling this thread will be valid through the 2022 season.

 

lol... yup!

[TheHurl]

This was my problem with him all year. He should have leaned on our starters more when our bullpen was full of scrubs.

 

Jays starters 1st half 430 IP, 4.00 ERA, 4.45 FIP.

Jays pen 1st half 329 IP, 3.97 ERA, 4.08 FIP.

 

Not sure staying with the starters longer would have improved upon their 45-42 record.

 

I got a feeling this thread will be valid through the 2022 season.

 

I feel like people should be rooting for health issue related retirement as the only way 2023 doesn't have Chuck is the Jays regressing.

[Jimcanuck]

Jays likely to be even better next year. We might have to stomach Charlie for a while.

 

It may well be the FO places a lot of value on clubhouse harmony, and is willing to accept some in game stupidity as trade off. None of us know how often a toxic clubhouse atmosphere happens in baseball and its impact. Shatkins does.

 

Having said that, surely we can find a manager that can do both.

[max silver]

Jays starters 1st half 430 IP, 4.00 ERA, 4.45 FIP.

Jays pen 1st half 329 IP, 3.97 ERA, 4.08 FIP.

 

Not sure staying with the starters longer would have improved upon their 45-42 record.

 

 

 

I feel like people should be rooting for health issue related retirement as the only way 2023 doesn't have Chuck is the Jays regressing.

 

When given a choice between the starters and most of the relief options that the club rolled out during the first half I think the starters likely win every time. The bullpen consisted of pitchers like Chatwood, Dolis, Thornton, Barnes, Murphy etc. Outside of Mayza and Romano there was literally nobody in the pen that could be reliably counted on for outs so in that instance unless the starter was getting rocked it very likely would have worked out better to give them a shot to work out of trouble.

[Brownie19]

When given a choice between the starters and most of the relief options that the club rolled out during the first half I think the starters likely win every time. The bullpen consisted of pitchers like Chatwood, Dolis, Thornton, Barnes, Murphy etc. Outside of Mayza and Romano there was literally nobody in the pen that could be reliably counted on for outs so in that instance unless the starter was getting rocked it very likely would have worked out better to give them a shot to work out of trouble.

 

So...you're just ignoring the numbers?

[glory]

Not only is the team on the rise, but expanded playoffs is almost certainly to happen whenever the CBA is agreed to. If Montoyo starts 2022 as manager, then he'll probably be around for a while.

[max silver]

So...you're just ignoring the numbers?

 

The numbers as presented don't really paint the whole picture, I suspect the end result would look different if you were to split things up more effectively. The rotation was pretty damn bad the first month of the season, where the bullpen was actually pretty good in comparison. This ends up skewing the overall first half numbers to a great degree. Given that the bulk of the gut wrenching losses occurred in May and June before the Cimber and Richards acquisitions the first half numbers as a whole misrepresent what happened to a large degree.

 

In April Ray missed time due to injury and Manoah wasn't up yet. The likes of Zeuch, Kay and Roark all received starts, and the results were unsurprisingly bad. Stripling really struggled in the early going as well. The bullpen during this period was awesome in comparison. The starters ended up pitching to a 4.26 ERA for the month, vs 2.52 for the bullpen.

 

Moving to May we see the starters start to improve with a 4.15 ERA for the month, with the relievers starting to really struggle to a 4.54 ERA.

 

When me move to June the starters are really starting to rock and put up a 3.89 ERA, vs the relievers who once again struggled to a 4.47 ERA.

 

In July we see things really moving as the rotation put up a 3.30 ERA vs 4.70 for the bullpen.

 

During the months where the bullpen was actually the issue the rotation's ERA was quite a bit better in comparison for both of the months. It is very possible that leveraging the more effective rotation vs the inferior bullpen as much as possible would have led to better results in the win/loss column.

[Brownie19]

The numbers as presented don't really paint the whole picture, I suspect the end result would look different if you were to split things up more effectively. The rotation was pretty damn bad the first month of the season, where the bullpen was actually pretty good in comparison. This ends up skewing the overall first half numbers to a great degree. Given that the bulk of the gut wrenching losses occurred in May and June before the Cimber and Richards acquisitions the first half numbers as a whole misrepresent what happened to a large degree.

 

In April Ray missed time due to injury and Manoah wasn't up yet. The likes of Zeuch, Kay and Roark all received starts, and the results were unsurprisingly bad. Stripling really struggled in the early going as well. The bullpen during this period was awesome in comparison. The starters ended up pitching to a 4.26 ERA for the month, vs 2.52 for the bullpen.

 

Moving to May we see the starters start to improve with a 4.15 ERA for the month, with the relievers starting to really struggle to a 4.54 ERA.

 

When me move to June the starters are really starting to rock and put up a 3.89 ERA, vs the relievers who once again struggled to a 4.47 ERA.

 

In July we see things really moving as the rotation put up a 3.30 ERA vs 4.70 for the bullpen.

 

During the months where the bullpen was actually the issue the rotation's ERA was quite a bit better in comparison for both of the months. It is very possible that leveraging the more effective rotation vs the inferior bullpen as much as possible would have led to better results in the win/loss column.

 

The real life challenge is deciding when to make that change. When the bullpen starts to show kinks in the armor - do you immediately change philosophies? or do you chalk it up to SSS? There are all kinds of blips in the radar throughout a season and you can't expect a manager to read those changes correctly every time and make those immediate changes. That said, I think you could definitely suggest Chuckles was a little slow to adjust and remove the early season faith he had in the bullpen and place it onto the starters, but it's probably not fair to suggest he screwed this up for a full 2 months.

[connorp]

“Kinks in the armor”..pc police win again

[Deadpool]

“Kinks in the armor”..pc police win again

 

I mean, it could just be people not knowing the language. The number of people who say "on accident", "chomping at the bit", and "bold faced lie" should show that the problem isn't PC culture run amok, it's people who simply didn't pay any attention in English class.

[Brownie19]

I mean, it could just be people not knowing the language. The number of people who say "on accident", "chomping at the bit", and "bold faced lie" should show that the problem isn't PC culture run amok, it's people who simply didn't pay any attention in English class.

 

yes. guilty.

 

My kids say 'on accident' all the time and I'm always correcting them. Does that even my stupidity out?

[Deadpool]

yes. guilty.

 

My kids say 'on accident' all the time and I'm always correcting them. Does that even my stupidity out?

 

Yeah, just make sure it sticks! "On accident" is one of those things that pisses me off literally every single time I hear it, no matter who says it. Beat that out of your kids if you have to! SEVERE CHILD BEATINGS!

[Spanky99]

Yeah, just make sure it sticks! "On accident" is one of those things that pisses me off literally every single time I hear it, no matter who says it. Beat that out of your kids if you have to! SEVERE CHILD BEATINGS!

 

lol

[TheHurl]

When given a choice between the starters and most of the relief options that the club rolled out during the first half I think the starters likely win every time. The bullpen consisted of pitchers like Chatwood, Dolis, Thornton, Barnes, Murphy etc. Outside of Mayza and Romano there was literally nobody in the pen that could be reliably counted on for outs so in that instance unless the starter was getting rocked it very likely would have worked out better to give them a shot to work out of trouble.

 

Lets not forget that Kay, Stripling, and Zeuch were also starting games at that point. In this case I was just saying that this poster was likely wrong in saying that keeping a starter in longer would have meant 5 extra wins earlier in the season. The starters likely would have had similar blow ups 3rd time through anyway. Last year's silly season was the first time that SP innings and RP innings were virtually equal (as were most of the numbers). If you're going to have 3 to 2 split like the Jays this year (836 to 540 or something like that) you should expect your relievers to have much better numbers than the starters (in general anyway). So I'm not defending the pen, but I just think the OP is off that keeping starters in longer would have meant more wins.

[max silver]

Lets not forget that Kay, Stripling, and Zeuch were also starting games at that point. In this case I was just saying that this poster was likely wrong in saying that keeping a starter in longer would have meant 5 extra wins earlier in the season. The starters likely would have had similar blow ups 3rd time through anyway. Last year's silly season was the first time that SP innings and RP innings were virtually equal (as were most of the numbers). If you're going to have 3 to 2 split like the Jays this year (836 to 540 or something like that) you should expect your relievers to have much better numbers than the starters (in general anyway). So I'm not defending the pen, but I just think the OP is off that keeping starters in longer would have meant more wins.

 

During the time frame from May 1-Aug 1 the starters had a collective ERA of 3.75. During this same time period the bullpen ERA was 4.54. Perhaps there was a bit of a balancing act that could have been utilized in attempting to push the starters a little further and limiting the bullpen innings a bit more. I don't know if Charlie would have the necessary acumen to pull this off anyway, but using the lesser relievers less in favor of the starters may have allowed the club to keep the score a little closer in games, particularly when they were behind. This could certainly prove to be a thankless task however as if/when starters were to end up getting tagged we would inevitably complain that they were left in too long.

 

When the club was at it's best the starters were being allowed to go further into games and the bullpen had far fewer innings to cover, leading to less innings being pitched by the less reliable members of the pen and allowing the relievers to receive more appropriate amounts of rest. This also coincided with a stretch of games where the starters were all rolling outside of Ryu, so it's possible that the pitchers going deeper into games was something that happened organically based on performance rather than a pre-defined plan.

 

This certainly wouldn't have been nearly as much of an issue if Charlie would have had a more reliable pen to start with, but he really didn't have a handle on putting the right relievers into games given the situation. He refused to use his best relievers in games where the score was still close with the club trailing, and many games quickly spiralled out of control as a result. Then there was the stubborn refusal to remove struggling relievers from leverage opportunities, with insisting that Dolis was good last year so he had to be good this year, and Chatwood was good earlier in the season so he had to be better later in the season. Then Thornton was thrust into leverage situations despite not showing the ability at any point to retire major league hitters consistently out of the pen and so on and so forth. Later in the year he started using his leverage relievers in games which were well out of reach in the Jays favor. It seems that Charlie is learning how to be a manager at the major league level, and that's the last thing that a club with aspirations of contention should be willing to put up with.

[Boxcar]

Lets not forget that Kay, Stripling, and Zeuch were also starting games at that point. In this case I was just saying that this poster was likely wrong in saying that keeping a starter in longer would have meant 5 extra wins earlier in the season. The starters likely would have had similar blow ups 3rd time through anyway. Last year's silly season was the first time that SP innings and RP innings were virtually equal (as were most of the numbers). If you're going to have 3 to 2 split like the Jays this year (836 to 540 or something like that) you should expect your relievers to have much better numbers than the starters (in general anyway). So I'm not defending the pen, but I just think the OP is off that keeping starters in longer would have meant more wins.

 

You and a chance to play devil's advocate is like flies to s***

[Jimcanuck]

April 16, 2022 - Tapia and his wRC+ of 37 is leadoff hitter

[Deadpool]

April 16, 2022 - Tapia and his wRC+ of 37 is leadoff hitter

 

He had two weak seeing eye ground ball singles yesterday, clearly he's figured it out!

[BTS]

April 16, 2022 - Tapia and his wRC+ of 37 is leadoff hitter

 

Yes, but you see: he runs fast.