Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[bones10]

Get rid of him

[Daniel Labude]

Get rid of him

 

Its time

[bronson44]

So f***ing worried about handedness this guy even if it means bringing in a AAA lefty to blow a game rather than let your best reliever get out of his own mess

[The Iceman]

Chatwood did not deserve the chance to finish the game.

 

You would lie to think our LHP could get one out. I am not a Charlie fan but today is on Chatwood and not Charlie.

[Stangstag]

Chatwood did not deserve the chance to finish the game.

 

You would lie to think our LHP could get one out. I am not a Charlie fan but today is on Chatwood and not Charlie.

 

I agree, although I do think Bergen was a bad move. Why wasn’t Romano available?? Ugh

[BlueRocky]

I’m not going to throw any insults today, there’s plenty of that in the GDT. I’m just going to state a fact: Until the manager changes, this team isn’t going anywhere.

[Krylian]

I’m not going to throw any insults today, there’s plenty of that in the GDT. I’m just going to state a fact: Until the manager changes, this team isn’t going anywhere.

 

I was thinking this exact same thing. No playoffs until Montoyo is replaced.

[Olerud363]

IÂ’m not going to throw any insults today, thereÂ’s plenty of that in the GDT. IÂ’m just going to state a fact: Until the manager changes, this team isnÂ’t going anywhere.

 

That isn't a fact. And the front office is smart enough to know that which is why he isn't being fired any time soon.

 

The level of Charlie hate is completely irrational. These stupid moves are not costing that much. Injuries and player performance are the issue.

 

Again, if you magically make Springer, Kirk, the bullpen healthy, and Pearson transition to the majors like McCahallahan is that would be worth 15 wins over a year.

 

Replacing Charlie with a complete genius would be worth 1 or 2.

[Deadpool]

That isn't a fact. And the front office is smart enough to know that which is why he isn't being fired any time soon.

 

The level of Charlie hate is completely irrational. These stupid moves are not costing that much. Injuries and player performance are the issue.

 

Again, if you magically make Springer, Kirk, the bullpen healthy, and Pearson transition to the majors like McCahallahan is that would be worth 15 wins over a year.

 

Replacing Charlie with a complete genius would be worth 1 or 2.

 

I good manager might be worth 1 or 2 wins over an average manager. But a manager who REPEATEDLY has players bunt with 2 strikes is not an average manager...

[Olerud363]

I good manager might be worth 1 or 2 wins over an average manager. But a manager who REPEATEDLY has players bunt with 2 strikes is not an average manager...

 

Not really defending him. I agree it's dumb and pointless to bunt, especially with 2 strikes. But the hitters he's bunting with probably have a collective .300 on base percentage, and if they hit with 2 strike's it's more like a .150 on base percentage, so you aren't really giving up an at bat that has lot's of value at that point.

 

Or look at it this way. It's reasonable to assume a major league baseball team is aware of all the win probabilities in every single situation, and they have added up all of Charlie's moves and don't think it changes things too much...

 

If the data they have does show Charlie is depressing the win total by 4 wins or something... then it's criminal that they don't fire him tonight.

 

So I assume the numbers show Charlie doesn't have as much an effect on the games as we think... or the Jays aren't keeping track of those numbers (which if they aren't then that itself is concerning).

[BlueRocky]

Not really defending him.

 

The level of Charlie hate is completely irrational. These stupid moves are not costing that much. Injuries and player performance are the issue.

 

For someone claiming you’re not defending Montoyo, you’re trying really hard to defend him.

[Omar]

Some thoughts about Montoyo:

 

1. He has no major league pedigree to speak of. He is a career minor league coach who also had a stint on the Rays bench. We all know Kevin Cash goes his own way strategy wise, So Montoyo's influence was zero.

 

2. His in game strategy is beyond bad. I don't mean just today, cause he had no plan B after Chatwood but the season thus far. He is burning out bullpen arms and we're only 25% into the season (see ken giles); also our infield defence barely shifts and Buntoyo seems oblivious.

 

3. He doesn't know how to manage a coaching staff at the major league level. He simply has never done it before.

 

4. With Springer back, followed by Pearson, this team can compete for wildcard now. Atkins likely did not envisage Montoyo managing a playoff team, but here we are.

 

5. He is not a bright man. Right now there are superior candidates available (Don Kelly, Pirates bench coach, Carlos Mendoza from the Yankees, or even James Rowson from the Marlins); These guys will be gobbled up if we don't fire Montoyo now.

 

6. Montoyo has to go!

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Omar

[ShowtimeBelli]

Some thoughts about Montoyo:

 

1. He has no major league pedigree to speak of. He is a career minor league coach who also had a stint on the Rays bench. We all know Kevin Cash goes his own way strategy wise, So Montoyo's influence was zero.

 

2. His in game strategy is beyond bad. I don't mean just today, cause he had no plan B after Chatwood but the season thus far. He is burning out bullpen arms and we're only 25% into the season (see ken giles); also our infield defence barely shifts and Buntoyo seems oblivious.

 

3. He doesn't know how to manage a coaching staff at the major league level. He simply has never done it before.

 

4. With Springer back, followed by Pearson, this team can compete for wildcard now. Atkins likely did not envisage Montoyo managing a playoff team, but here we are.

 

5. He is not a bright man. Right now there are superior candidates available (Don Kelly, Pirates bench coach, Carlos Menoza from the Yankees, or even James Rowson from the Marlins); These guys will be gobbled up if we don't fire Montoyo now.

 

6. Montoyo has to go!

 

 

Our very own John Schneider is a suitable replacement

[Olerud363]

For someone claiming youÂ’re not defending Montoyo, youÂ’re trying really hard to defend him.

 

I don't think his affect on the team's win total is anywhere near what people are making it out to be. That's not defending him, just making a point about how the win total is cooked.

 

The claims that the Jays will never win with him are ridiculous. If everything went right in one of the next three years, the talent level could be 100 wins, Charlie isn't going to mismanage that into 85 wins. At most it would be like Cito Gaston

 

And Cito Gaston totally mucked up the 1992 and 1993 playoffs in a way. Jack Morris getting the most starts for example... but they won anyway.

[Dr. Dinger]

Bergengate is a watershed moment. This is the beginning of the end for Montoyo.

[Daniel Labude]

Our very own John Schneider is a suitable replacement

 

I like this idea

[Omar]

Our very own John Schneider is a suitable replacement

 

Maybe Shapiro/Atkins are three steps ahead? Possible.

[mtljaysfan]

Anyone understands why they picked up Montoyo's option for next year?

[Dick_Pole]

The Blue Jays have come from behind all year. Then when the BP blows a couple of games to even that out a bit the talk is all fire Montoyo again. The problem is the starting rotation outside of Ryu sucks. And that is putting undue pressure on the bullpen, which is mostly a patchwork of also-rans outperforming their career trajectory as it is. This is on the FO for doing a half-assed job of addressing the starting staff this past offseason when they clearly had the financial flexibility and assets to make something happen. You can blame Montoyo for some questionable decisions on offense, but he's clearly being left holding the bag on pitching. Edited May 24, 2021 by Dick_Pole

[Spanky99]

Anyone understands why they picked up Montoyo's option for next year?

 

Atkins likes him.

[Terminator]

The Blue Jays have come from behind all year. Then when the BP blows a couple of games to even that out a bit the talk is all fire Montoyo again. The problem is the starting rotation outside of Ryu sucks. And that is putting undue pressure on the bullpen, which is mostly a patchwork of also-rans outperforming their career trajectory as it is. This is on the FO for doing a half-assed job of addressing the starting staff this past offseason when they clearly had the financial flexibility and assets to make something happen. You can blame Montoyo for some questionable decisions on offense, but he's clearly being left holding the bag on pitching.

 

TBH I can't really think of too many egregious errors with regards to bullpen usage so far this season until today. Bergen sucks ass and walks a lot of guys so putting him in a bases loaded spot with the game on the line is pretty damn stupid. BUT- Meadows is pretty awful against lefties and Chatwood was pitching like s***. I think it was a dumb move and said so at the time but I least see some logic there.

 

On the other hand, the Espinal bunt (even with two strikes and extremely well defended) was completely retarded. I don't get that one at all.

[Jimcanuck]

We've heard enough from Montoya to know a lot of these are gut decisions. Not the manager you want to have with the game on the line.

[saskjayfan]

Not really defending him. I agree it's dumb and pointless to bunt, especially with 2 strikes. But the hitters he's bunting with probably have a collective .300 on base percentage, and if they hit with 2 strike's it's more like a .150 on base percentage, so you aren't really giving up an at bat that has lot's of value at that point.

 

Or look at it this way. It's reasonable to assume a major league baseball team is aware of all the win probabilities in every single situation, and they have added up all of Charlie's moves and don't think it changes things too much...

 

If the data they have does show Charlie is depressing the win total by 4 wins or something... then it's criminal that they don't fire him tonight.

 

So I assume the numbers show Charlie doesn't have as much an effect on the games as we think... or the Jays aren't keeping track of those numbers (which if they aren't then that itself is concerning).

 

On the bunt both Pat and Buck said put the runners in motion. Choi was crashing in. He was on the grass and as the pitching was winding up he started coming in. There was no way to stop Semien from getting to third. In a game earlier in the season when tampa had the bunt on, they pulled it after the first pitch because Biggio was playing in on the grass. Then once Margot hit a 108 mph ball right between Biggio's legs Montoyo threw Biggio under the bus saying he has to come up with that play. 108 on a line when you're 75 feet away. Biggio had no chance. It was obvious Margot wasn't going to bunt in that situation by the 4th or 5th pitch when he hit the rocket. If charlie had read the situation any reasonably hard contact to the left side would have had a very high chance of getting through. If he had sent Semien on the 2nd or 3rd pitch Semien would have easily taken third and we would have had runners on the corners with none out and Espinal could have hit away.

 

When Charlie intentionally walked the guy in extra's and he immediately took second to put 2 runners in scoring position with one out, I was yelling at my TV. Then another free pass to load the bases. It's one thing to play match ups when you don't have an at bat and the next run wins. We had an at bat. We lost the game by 2 runs because of the 2 free passes Montoyo gave the other team.

 

Putting Bergen in instead of Romano seemed baffling. You don't play lefty righty match ups when the game is on the line. You put out your best arm, who's used to the situation. Bergen has a career walk rate of 5.5 per 9 and he's never been in high leverage situations. It's like pinch hitting McGuire for Vlad because a tough righty is on the mound. You'd never do it. There was no reason to bring in Bergen over Romano who thrives in those situations.

 

Managers, players, GMs. They all make mistakes. I need to see Montoyo learn from these mistakes and adjust similar situations arise as the season continues. He's not going anywhere, so hopefully there's some self reflection and we do some things different in the future. To be fair, there's been games this season, he's pulled all the right strings and we've won games and those decisions go unnoticed. You don't get credit for the good, you just get killed for the bad that is far more obvious. It's just been a tough stretch. The problem is you go through a tough stretch like this and some questionable decisions and the players start to question the manager. Hopefully it ends today and we can get a W!

[TheHurl]

SaskJayFan for Manager

[saskjayfan]

SaskJayFan for Manager

 

If you read my post, I said we're probably unfairly piling on to what seem like mistakes in hindsight when good decisions go unnoticed. There seems to a couple situational points that Montoyo continually does the same thing and we haven't seen positive results. I know. We're not allowed to complain about managers. They don't matter. You should probably just lock this thread.

[ShowtimeBelli]

I remember when a good portion of people here were calling for Gibbons' head. A very good manager. Now... You reap what you sow. Sure would be nice to still have good ol' John around.

[BTS]

I remember when a good portion of people here were calling for Gibbons' head. A very good manager. Now... You reap what you sow. Sure would be nice to still have good ol' John around.

 

Gibby was a beloved institution on this forum.

[Dr. Dinger]

Gibby was a beloved institution on this forum.

 

Anybody who thinks Gibby's 2nd tenure was hated by the locals clearly doesn't remember Cito's 2nd tenure. Compared to Cito 2.0 and John Farrell, Gibby never took that much flack. Actually, I'd say Gibbons was disliked a lot more his first time.

[bronson44]

I loved the way Gibbons managed the bullpen

[RobinThicc]

 

Montoyo still counting the moral W's.