Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[Stangstag]

One of the dumbest managerial moves I've ever seen occurred tonight. I actually didn't see it, I was working late so I saw the gamecast version. I couldn't really believe my eyes so if something weird happened, like Jansen tried a safety squeeze or something and I just didn't realize it please let me know.

 

But we are tied 2-2 in the top of the 4th inning with one out and runners on 1st and 2nd. JC Romero entered the game 3 batters ago and gave up 2 singles and a HBP. Jansen steps up to the plate with runners on 1st and 3rd and 1 out. Montoyo has him bunt the runner over to second. That play dropped our win expectancy from 73 to 66.5%. Biggio steps to the plate with 2 outs now and hits a single. But Bichette then grounds out to end the inning.

 

Did that really happen?

 

Siddall had a good point too. In the bottom of the 6th after the pass ball there were runners on 2nd and 3rd with Harper up to bat. Why wasn’t Harper walked/pitched around when he’s on fire right now? Why pitch to the best hitter on the team with a base open and 2 outs already?

[John_Havok]

Siddall had a good point too. In the bottom of the 6th after the pass ball there were runners on 2nd and 3rd with Harper up to bat. Why wasn’t Harper walked/pitched around when he’s on fire right now? Why pitch to the best hitter on the team with a base open and 2 outs already?

 

I almost lost my s*** at that mindless decision. Here’s the wonder-moron’s response, taken from a Bill Ladson article:

 

Montoyo never thought about walking Harper to load the bases and instead pitching to Alec Bohm, who is hitting .326 as a rookie after Friday's action.

 

“The guy on deck has been their best hitter over the last three weeks,” Montoyo said.

 

 

That’s right. The guy on deck has been their best hitter in the past 3 weeks. Never mind the completely obvious RH/Lh thing, the fact that’s Harper can hit any pitch 500 feet, whose GB rate gains RHP isn’t likely, that there was a base open to set up the double play with what would have been a right on right matchup with a guy who throws sinkers, Who has a 50% gb rate against a guy Who has a 50% gb rate and who DID hit a ground ball against him that very likely could have been two, or maybe only 1 at worst if the DP wasn’t turned.

 

Yup, he’s been their best hitter over the past three weeks.

 

f***ing idiot needs to be fired the millisecond this season is over and I almost hope the Jays lose every game for the rest of the season if it would guarantee his firing

Edited September 20, 2020 by John_Havok

[Stangstag]

I almost lost my s*** at that mindless decision. Here’s the wonder-moron’s response, taken from a Bill Ladson article:

 

Montoyo never thought about walking Harper to load the bases and instead pitching to Alec Bohm, who is hitting .326 as a rookie after Friday's action.

 

“The guy on deck has been their best hitter over the last three weeks,” Montoyo said.

 

 

That’s right. The guy on deck has been their best hitter in the past 3 weeks. Never mind the completely obvious RH/Lh thing, the fact that’s Harper can hit any pitch 500 feet, whose GB rate gains RHP isn’t likely, that there was a base open to set up the double play with what would have been a right on right matchup with a guy who throws sinkers, Who has a 50% go rate against a guy Who has a 50% go rate and who DID hit a ground ball against him that very likely could have been two, or maybe only 1 at worst if the DP wasn’t turned.

 

Yup, he’s been their best hitter over the past three weeks.

 

f***ing idiot needs to be fired the millisecond this season is over and I almost hope the Jays lose every game for the rest of the season if it would guarantee his firing

 

I’d be fine with the jays missing the playoffs if it means we fire Charlie and hire a competent manager that makes good tactical decisions.

[Dick_Pole]

There is no chance the performance for the rest of the year will have any impact. If the FO wants to fire him, they already made that choice. Might as well cheer for the Jays to win every game.

[DigitalRock]

I almost lost my s*** at that mindless decision. Here’s the wonder-moron’s response, taken from a Bill Ladson article:

 

Montoyo never thought about walking Harper to load the bases and instead pitching to Alec Bohm, who is hitting .326 as a rookie after Friday's action.

 

“The guy on deck has been their best hitter over the last three weeks,” Montoyo said.

 

 

That’s right. The guy on deck has been their best hitter in the past 3 weeks. Never mind the completely obvious RH/Lh thing, the fact that’s Harper can hit any pitch 500 feet, whose GB rate gains RHP isn’t likely, that there was a base open to set up the double play with what would have been a right on right matchup with a guy who throws sinkers, Who has a 50% gb rate against a guy Who has a 50% gb rate and who DID hit a ground ball against him that very likely could have been two, or maybe only 1 at worst if the DP wasn’t turned.

 

Yup, he’s been their best hitter over the past three weeks.

 

f***ing idiot needs to be fired the millisecond this season is over and I almost hope the Jays lose every game for the rest of the season if it would guarantee his firing

 

Yeah Montoyo is really bad, he still has his defenders here though.

[Abomination]

Yeah Montoyo is really bad, he still has his defenders here though.

 

Where?

[Spanky99]

Where?

 

I thought the same thing, who likes Charlie?

[Dokken]

There is no chance the performance for the rest of the year will have any impact. If the FO wants to fire him, they already made that choice. Might as well cheer for the Jays to win every game.

 

I totally disagree that "performance for the rest of the year" has no impact. If the Jays go say 1 and 7 on their remaining 8 games, and miss the stupid 2020 post-season, the PR will be really bad and someone will need to be the scapegoat. Montoyo was pretty much hired to be rolled under the bus at the appropriate time. Shapiro and Atkins better hope some of their pitching prospects that they did not trade for something better than the likes of Ray and Stripling (and Tiajain Walker) pan out and soon!

[Spanky99]

I totally disagree that "performance for the rest of the year" has no impact. If the Jays go say 1 and 7 on their remaining 8 games, and miss the stupid 2020 post-season, the PR will be really bad and someone will need to be the scapegoat. Montoyo was pretty much hired to be rolled under the bus at the appropriate time. Shapiro and Atkins better hope some of their pitching prospects that they did not trade for something better than the likes of Ray and Stripling (and Tiajain Walker) pan out and soon!

 

Calm down, mate... the sky isn't falling. lol

[Dokken]

Calm down, mate... the sky isn't falling. lol

 

Daniel Norris, Jeff Hoffman, Matt Boyd, etc etc. I still think they did the right thing keeping their powder dry this time around, but still, the 'casuals' will be out with pitchforks and torches!

[Spanky99]

Daniel Norris, Jeff Hoffman, Matt Boyd, etc etc. I still think they did the right thing keeping their powder dry this time around, but still, the 'casuals' will be out with pitchforks and torches!

 

You've lost me, now? What about them?

[Deadpool]

Daniel Norris, Jeff Hoffman, Matt Boyd, etc etc. I still think they did the right thing keeping their powder dry this time around, but still, the 'casuals' will be out with pitchforks and torches!

 

Norris has put up 5.1 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him, Jeff Hoffman (in 66 total games) has put up 0.7 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him. Matt Boyd has put up 8.6 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him.

 

These are not arguments for "don't trade your pitching prospects, they could become amazing!"

[King]

Norris has put up 5.1 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him, Jeff Hoffman (in 66 total games) has put up 0.7 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him. Matt Boyd has put up 8.6 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him.

 

These are not arguments for "don't trade your pitching prospects, they could become amazing!"

 

Boyds 8.6 fWAR is a top 50 starter in baseball since 2016 lol. What are you going on about? He has been pretty f***ing good.

 

The same fWAR as guys like Danny Duffy and Mike Leake who commanded 60 to 80 mil on the free agent market

[Deadpool]

Boyds 8.6 fWAR is a top 50 starter in baseball since 2016 lol. What are you going on about? He has been pretty f***ing good.

 

The same fWAR as guys like Danny Duffy and Mike Leake who commanded 60 to 80 mil on the free agent market

 

I didn't say he wasn't good, I was saying "it's not an argument that you don't trade prospects". We got 2.6 WAR outta David Price in 11 games outta that trade, and he was a big part of us making the playoffs in 2015 for the first time in 21 years. I make that trade all day, every day both at the time and in hindsight.

 

Syndergaard would be the argument you would make against trading prospects, and that deal was universally panned at the time and in retrospect.

 

Also, absolutely nobody at the time saw Boyd as being as good as he has become.

[King]

I didn't say he wasn't good, I was saying "it's not an argument that you don't trade prospects". We got 2.6 WAR outta David Price in 11 games outta that trade, and he was a big part of us making the playoffs in 2015 for the first time in 21 years. I make that trade all day, every day both at the time and in hindsight.

 

Syndergaard would be the argument you would make against trading prospects, and that deal was universally panned at the time and in retrospect.

 

Also, absolutely nobody at the time saw Boyd as being as good as he has become.

 

Based on what?

 

Boyd destroyed every level of the minor leagues before a hiccup in his first MLB stint and has been a perfectly fine league average starter (above average at peak). I would say his career has played out exactly the way I would have expected it to, nothing more nothing less.

[Dokken]

Norris has put up 5.1 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him, Jeff Hoffman (in 66 total games) has put up 0.7 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him. Matt Boyd has put up 8.6 WAR in the 5 years since we traded him.

 

These are not arguments for "don't trade your pitching prospects, they could become amazing!"

 

OH YEAH that's actually what I meant. Shapiro ran down AA for trading all those guys away, but none of them, except Syndergaard, has turned into a star. Look at the guys he traded for Donaldson. Prospects become suspects soon enough, including 1st overall prospects sometimes..... You could argue the Jays' trade deadline moves this year were chicken-s*** BS, but I still think they did the right thing to mostly 'Stand Pat' this time. Pat went all in in '92 and '93 and it paid off. Will these 2 strike at the right time and win like he did !?

[Olerud363]

I thought the same thing, who likes Charlie?

 

I evaluate Charlie on player development and performance so at moments this season he looked OK.

 

I know people disagree with me, but I don't think it's possible for a manager to add too much either way with "strategy". Main job of the manager is to coordinate the coaching staff, keep players healthy, keep players productive as possible given their talent, put players in a position to succeed.

 

Depending on how the next 8 games play out that could play out either way.

 

60 game season sucks. No time to re-adjust, if they randomly end on a down note it could look really bad for the coaching staff.

 

Charlie should be fired if they don't make the playoffs. It would be an implosion of such epic proportions there'd be no choice.

 

Charlie should be fired if Shapiro isn't confident in his ability to run a coaching staff, keep a pitching staff healthy and productive and help develop players.

 

Otherwise he can keep his jobs in my opinion. Shouldn't be fired for meaningless strategy mistakes.

[Dokken]

I evaluate Charlie on player development and performance so at moments this season he looked OK.

 

I know people disagree with me, but I don't think it's possible for a manager to add too much either way with "strategy". Main job of the manager is to coordinate the coaching staff, keep players healthy, keep players productive as possible given their talent, put players in a position to succeed.

 

Depending on how the next 8 games play out that could play out either way.

 

60 game season sucks. No time to re-adjust, if they randomly end on a down note it could look really bad for the coaching staff.

 

Charlie should be fired if they don't make the playoffs. It would be an implosion of such epic proportions there'd be no choice.

 

Charlie should be fired if Shapiro isn't confident in his ability to run a coaching staff, keep a pitching staff healthy and productive and help develop players.

 

Otherwise he can keep his jobs in my opinion. Shouldn't be fired for meaningless strategy mistakes.

 

I took you for being more astute than that. My mistake.

 

"Main job of the manager is to coordinate the coaching staff, keep players healthy, keep players productive as possible given their talent, put players in a position to succeed. "

 

No, those are all very important roles of the manager, but his most important role is to be a 'leader' and run a professional operation that does not continuously make the same old mental errors, show up out of shape, etc. This f***ing guy is a joke. Do you think Roy Halladay would have put up with Vlad's shenanigans? He would have had that fat f*** down doing 20 pushups regularly until the kid got his head out of his ass!

[Spanky99]

[Deadpool]

Based on what?

 

Boyd destroyed every level of the minor leagues before a hiccup in his first MLB stint and has been a perfectly fine league average starter (above average at peak). I would say his career has played out exactly the way I would have expected it to, nothing more nothing less.

 

Based on my clear memory of Daniel Norris being the only piece anyone was particularly bothered to be giving up. Perhaps had I phrased it "nobody expected Boyd to become the best player surrendered in that trade" it would have been more accurate.

 

Regardless, "guy who was the 58th best pitcher by WAR over a 5 year period" isn't something we should be SUPER upset about giving up in a trade that brought back an incredibly helpful piece in a playoff race. And if you sort by FIP, he's the 131st best (qualified) pitcher over that time frame. Yes, I realize I'm including some relievers, while you limited your statement to starters, but I'm not interested enough in the minutiae of this argument to do any more digging.

[Deadpool]

Shouldn't be fired for meaningless strategy mistakes.

 

And if the mistakes he made were all meaningless, this would be a valid point.

[Olerud363]

And if the mistakes he made were all meaningless, this would be a valid point.

 

If you look at the game probability measures none of the mistakes really change things much. Blue Jays have 52% chance of winning game, Charlie calls for the bunt, Blue Jays have 52% chance of winning after bunt.

 

What do you think the win loss record of this team would be with perfect strategic managing but the same player performance??

 

I mean they already are out performing their run-differential.

 

Do you think if Charlie didn't bunt 8 times it would change things a lot?

[Dokken]

If you look at the game probability measures none of the mistakes really change things much. Blue Jays have 52% chance of winning game, Charlie calls for the bunt, Blue Jays have 52% chance of winning after bunt.

 

What do you think the win loss record of this team would be with perfect strategic managing but the same player performance??

 

I mean they already are out performing their run-differential.

Do you think if Charlie didn't bunt 8 times it would change things a lot?

 

SERIOUSLY!!

 

In this abbreviated season and with the few historic blowouts the Jays have suffered in the past 10 days starting with the 18-1 loss on Sept 11th (that day which will live in infamy), you want to cite run differential. I know we are not supposed to insult the other posters, but this is almost too much at this point. Give your head a shake man!!

[Spanky99]

-38 run differential in their last 6 games, Olerud brings up run differential... *face palm*

[Deadpool]

If you look at the game probability measures none of the mistakes really change things much. Blue Jays have 52% chance of winning game, Charlie calls for the bunt, Blue Jays have 52% chance of winning after bunt.

 

What do you think the win loss record of this team would be with perfect strategic managing but the same player performance??

 

I mean they already are out performing their run-differential.

 

Do you think if Charlie didn't bunt 8 times it would change things a lot?

 

Bunting is not the main mistake he makes. I mean, it's *A* mistake that he makes, but things like not walking Harper with first base open and 2 outs are much bigger, and more glaring errors (I mean, the goddamn broadcasters called that one out...). He seems to have no idea beyond "I feel like..." when deciding if/when to pinch hit, or when making pitching changes...

 

It's just... I mean, there are myriad things that he does to impact the game, and he makes the wrong decision time and time again.

 

He manages with his gut, that's f***ing asinine in 2020.

[dineke]

His tactics suck ass but it's obvious shatkins hired him for the things inside the clubhouse or because he's willing to be a puppet. They're not going to fire him because he bunts too much or not walking the other team's best player.

[Orgfiller]

Panik's wRC+ has eclipsed league average. Where are the Montoyo haters now that complained every time he was in the lineup?

[Spanky99]

Panik's wRC+ has eclipsed league average. Where are the Montoyo haters now that complained every time he was in the lineup?

 

SSS's and all that, I legit laugh at them debates, I don't seem to quantify this season.

[Dick_Pole]

I totally disagree that "performance for the rest of the year" has no impact. If the Jays go say 1 and 7 on their remaining 8 games, and miss the stupid 2020 post-season, the PR will be really bad and someone will need to be the scapegoat. Montoyo was pretty much hired to be rolled under the bus at the appropriate time. Shapiro and Atkins better hope some of their pitching prospects that they did not trade for something better than the likes of Ray and Stripling (and Tiajain Walker) pan out and soon!

 

When has the FO ever cared about optics? I guess the Osuna trade but that was an extreme case and we can certainly argue for that being a baseball trade. He may have been hired to be rolled under the bus at the right time, but that "right time" is not yet, no matter how this season ends. The Jays weren't expected to be serious contenders at the start of the season, and they might not be if the Angels didn't s*** the bed as much as they did. So missing the 2020 playoffs isn't going to be the tipping point. Which at this point is about a 2-3% chance.

[Dick_Pole]

Pretty sure that run differential thing was an Olerud troll and the sensitive bunch fell for it.