Charlie Montoyo Egregious Mistake Tracking Thread

[burlingtonbandit]

So far Montoyo has been horrble tactically. Bad lineup configuration, PR decisions, bunting decisions...

 

Bullpen management has been okay. Hopefully he can grow and get smarter for when the team actually gets good.

[Terminator]

Yeah he does seem to do fine with the bullpen. That's a pretty important thing too.

[Olerud363]

Most of your dumn, isn't on the manager. That's why? PR VGJ late in games dumn, bunting dumn... player's performance is on them, they're big boys. I honestly thought your s*** posting was satire, apparently this isn't the case.

 

You don't think major league players get instruction, both good and bad from coaches?? https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/sports/mlb-launch-angles-story/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.029bb7ebe0c1

 

We are now post-fly-ball revolution. It seems people on this thread think

 

a) a coach would be old school enough to advocate bunting and PR when the numbers say other wise

 

but...

 

it's totally out of the question that a coach would give outdated hitting advice....

 

It's a game of adjustments even on a league wide basis, and it seems well within the realm of possibility that a bad coaching staff/data analytics group could miss trends and give bad advice on swing mechanics, pitch selection, and even shifts.

[Spanky99]

You don't think major league players get instruction, both good and bad from coaches?? https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/sports/mlb-launch-angles-story/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.029bb7ebe0c1

 

We are now post-fly-ball revolution. It seems people on this thread think

 

a) a coach would be old school enough to advocate bunting and PR when the numbers say other wise

 

but...

 

it's totally out of the question that a coach would give outdated hitting advice....

 

It's a game of adjustments even on a league wide basis, and it seems well within the realm of possibility that a bad coaching staff/data analytics group could miss trends and give bad advice on swing mechanics, pitch selection, and even shifts.

 

Prior to the season and pre series Olerud, not 7 games in, pull your head out of your ass. Players bring results.

[Olerud363]

Prior to the season and pre series Olerud, not 7 games in, pull your head out of your ass. Players bring results.

 

I'm not just talking about Guerrero. McKinney, Jansen, Gurriel, Hernandez, Drury have been struggling for 5 weeks. Tellez is hitting but with a bad k/bb.

 

The other day, when Houston was playing, the announcers were claiming that Houston has made a lot of adjustments "post fly ball revolution". That is the opposing pitchers have adjusted their approach to the fly ball revolution and the Houston coaching staff has their hitters making other adjustments to counter that.

 

If, Montoya and the coaching staff, are indeed village idiots (I think the jury is still out) that can't handle lineups and game strategy, would they be able to handle data based hitting approach adjustments?

[Olerud363]

Look at the pretty picture ... isn't it beautiful. Now back away from the keyboard and enjoy your Sunday afternoon

 

It's not about pretty pictures. If you want to bring Olerud into it that's great. However let's keep in mind the topic

 

The Topic: Whether coaches can influence player performance and if so how much??

 

Out of touch Olerud reference: Rather than just a baseball card I suggest digging up old articles about the Cito Gaston/John Olerud/Tom Robson saga, the introduction to Tom Robson's hitting book is a good reference, as is this 20 year old article. https://nypost.com/1999/06/07/olerud-i-wuz-robbed/

 

More relevant info: If you want to bring the conversation into the present, references to "post flyball revolution" data analysis and hitting approach will be useful. We are post flyball revolution. Whatever adjustments are being made right now, may not be obvious to the general public for a couple of years. If the coaching staff are village idiots how can they be on top of the latest trends??

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

The Question is do they get the Right instructions or Skill Development in this day and a pigeon holed rosters were we develop players a certain way trying to Clone them style and in play ?

 

I mean if you can’t hit the ball to the opposite

Or all fields , if you can’t bunt or are extreme

Power and Jack s*** happy and nothing more

You get what we have now Extreme shift until

You can bust it ... so you see forced bunting

As it is , probably easier then .. teaching or developing the player to take it the opposite

Way and hit it ... Idk !

 

Ebb n Flow , evolve and adapt and Change

Happen in all games , Baseball, Hockey

Basketball and Football ... Somebody as to

Go first and change it and then a new Cloning

Phase begins Till they once again become the Same ... Rinse Repeat and Do IT Again !

 

It’s like Bands and Music I do not want 20

Bands that sound like f***ing NickelBack

One really Really was enough .. thanks !

 

Which is the type of Moderation and way this

Board is at times , narrow minded, Hotdog

Ketchup loving bland hive minded in mentality

And in Action !

 

I Blame BTS not you all here, Cowards seldom fight fair when given power to Rule!

 

I Didn’t Start the Fire , and his Moderation

And attacks after banning me , or banning me

For having done or said less then others on

Here or himself ... Only Proves it !

 

No Reason given smacks of ******** and

His Moderation is personal, not based on

Fact and that which I say or do ...

 

ADmin please Review and remove your Mod

Any Rays Fan Boy and Bruins Fan should never be given control , what next a f***ing

Orioles and Yankee fan running and ruining this place for JAYS Fans and Fans of this team ... Really ???

 

Lol Have a Nice Day and Go JAYS GO !!!

[DigitalRock]

The Question is do they get the Right instructions or Skill Development in this day and a pigeon holed rosters were we develop players a certain way trying to Clone them style and in play ?

 

I mean if you can’t hit the ball to the opposite

Or all fields , if you can’t bunt or are extreme

Power and Jack s*** happy and nothing more

You get what we have now Extreme shift until

You can bust it ... so you see forced bunting

As it is , probably easier then .. teaching or developing the player to take it the opposite

Way and hit it ... Idk !

 

Ebb n Flow , evolve and adapt and Change

Happen in all games , Baseball, Hockey

Basketball and Football ... Somebody as to

Go first and change it and then a new Cloning

Phase begins Till they once again become the Same ... Rinse Repeat and Do IT Again !

 

It’s like Bands and Music I do not want 20

Bands that sound like f***ing NickelBack

One really Really was enough .. thanks !

 

Which is the type of Moderation and way this

Board is at times , narrow minded, Hotdog

Ketchup loving bland hive minded in mentality

And in Action !

 

I Blame BTS not you all here, Cowards seldom fight fair when given power to Rule!

 

I Didn’t Start the Fire , and his Moderation

And attacks after banning me , or banning me

For having done or said less then others on

Here or himself ... Only Proves it !

 

No Reason given smacks of ******** and

His Moderation is personal, not based on

Fact and that which I say or do ...

 

ADmin please Review and remove your Mod

Any Rays Fan Boy and Bruins Fan should never be given control , what next a f***ing

Orioles and Yankee fan running and ruining this place for JAYS Fans and Fans of this team ... Really ???

 

Lol Have a Nice Day and Go JAYS GO !!!

 

Banned again lulz.

[Carlos Danger]

The Question is do they get the Right instructions or Skill Development in this day and a pigeon holed rosters were we develop players a certain way trying to Clone them style and in play ?

 

I mean if you can’t hit the ball to the opposite

Or all fields , if you can’t bunt or are extreme

Power and Jack s*** happy and nothing more

You get what we have now Extreme shift until

You can bust it ... so you see forced bunting

As it is , probably easier then .. teaching or developing the player to take it the opposite

Way and hit it ... Idk !

 

Ebb n Flow , evolve and adapt and Change

Happen in all games , Baseball, Hockey

Basketball and Football ... Somebody as to

Go first and change it and then a new Cloning

Phase begins Till they once again become the Same ... Rinse Repeat and Do IT Again !

 

It’s like Bands and Music I do not want 20

Bands that sound like f***ing NickelBack

One really Really was enough .. thanks !

 

Which is the type of Moderation and way this

Board is at times , narrow minded, Hotdog

Ketchup loving bland hive minded in mentality

And in Action !

 

I Blame BTS not you all here, Cowards seldom fight fair when given power to Rule!

 

I Didn’t Start the Fire , and his Moderation

And attacks after banning me , or banning me

For having done or said less then others on

Here or himself ... Only Proves it !

 

No Reason given smacks of ******** and

His Moderation is personal, not based on

Fact and that which I say or do ...

 

ADmin please Review and remove your Mod

Any Rays Fan Boy and Bruins Fan should never be given control , what next a f***ing

Orioles and Yankee fan running and ruining this place for JAYS Fans and Fans of this team ... Really ???

 

Lol Have a Nice Day and Go JAYS GO !!!

 

Are you guys serious... This is bordering on restricting free speech. I realize it is a private message board but this is getting really authoritarian.. Have some thicker skin... The guy is harmless... and entertaining.

[Olerud363]

 

Ebb n Flow , evolve and adapt and Change

Happen in all games , Baseball, Hockey

Basketball and Football ... Somebody as to

Go first and change it and then a new Cloning

Phase begins Till they once again become the Same ... Rinse Repeat and Do IT Again !

 

Poor BBBB partly gets it.

 

1. There is an ebb and a flow. The flyball revolution is very 2015. Today's revolution isn't known to the general public yet.

2. The Rays, who ironically BBBB doesn't seem to like, but the Hive does, are usually, one step ahead. As are the Yankees and Red Sox (led by Wall Street analysists turned baseball data analysts).

3. To implement the latest and greatest strategy the coaching staff needs to be intelligent or at least obedient.

4. We, the people, do not know the new inefficiencies yet, if we did they'd be public knowledge not inefficiencies.

5. The fact that the team is bunting too much may indicate a lack of intelligence on the part of the coaching staff.

6. If 5. is true, the concern isn't the 10 runs lost from bunting, but the hidden losses from being non-intelligent and behind the curve.

7. As fans (see 4) we don't know the latest and greatest trends yet, we can potentially use terrible hitting stats combined with love of bunting, as a proxy that indicates the Jays coaching staff doesn't know the latest and greatest trends in hitting mechanics and pitch sequencing yet either.

[Olerud363]

Are you guys serious... This is bordering on restricting free speech. I realize it is a private message board but this is getting really authoritarian.. Have some thicker skin... The guy is harmless... and entertaining.

 

Carlos... as you have caught on the hive mind is a type of NPC.

 

Hive mind - bunting = bad = -1/8977 runs.

 

Question - what about win expectency of the bunt of a 2-2 game in the 8th inning, with McKinney, Maile, and Sogard coming up, and considering their 5 year regressed minor league and major league stats?

 

Hive mind - computing... computing... bunt = -1/8977 runs. bunting = bad.

 

Question - OK... so if the manager is this stupid do you think it has an effect on other things like hitting approach??

 

Hive mind - computing... computing... computing... manager effect on hitting approach and mechanics = 0.000 runs per game

run(insult)

[KevinGregg]

Are you guys serious... This is bordering on restricting free speech. I realize it is a private message board but this is getting really authoritarian.. Have some thicker skin... The guy is harmless... and entertaining.

 

I disagree. I think it's nothing more than mindless drivel. Any point he has is completely lost in the nonsense.

 

There's no reason to allow that kind of s*** posting on here

[Deadpool]

I disagree. I think it's nothing more than mindless drivel. Any point he has is completely lost in the nonsense.

 

There's no reason to allow that kind of s*** posting on here

 

I've never banned him, but I'm at the point that when I notice a post is from him I just skip it. I can't remember the last time I've read more than a couple of words of one of his posts.

[TheHurl]

I suggest you wait until Montoyo gives Vlad a rest day before starting the Fire Charlie thread though. It will happen and it will happen probably more often than anyone wants.

 

It was a bigger outrage than even I thought it would.

[Spanky99]

It was a bigger outrage than even I thought it would.

 

It was because of the holiday, had he sat out yesterday, tomorrow, Wednesday... you wouldn't hear much more save for some fools. You're usually on the PR side of things, why are you missing the point? Prairies got you bitter, mate, lol.

[Brownie19]

How is this thread only at 16 pages?

[TheHurl]

It was because of the holiday, had he sat out yesterday, tomorrow, Wednesday... you wouldn't hear much more save for some fools. You're usually on the PR side of things, why are you missing the point? Prairies got you bitter, mate, lol.

 

And I said from day 1 that Shapiro is the worst PR front office man in the game. Good PR to these guys are more like "How will it effect the bottom line" (Even when they made a PR based decision, they admitted it being not trading Donaldson when they said "we would have loved to started our rebuild earlier but we led the league in attendance").

 

I can see the PR side (although Holiday games draw less TV viewers so in the end they are disappointing the same number of people) but the PR spin is that the goal is to get better and Vlad is on a sit schedule that our wellness team has put together and it isn't going to change. But as far as I know, the front office hasn't spoke on it, they obviously see this as a nothing piece too.

 

This front office is 100% big picture. Big picture is trying to build a winning team, and making the dome a better place to watch the game. They do not give a s*** about the day to day ramblings of casual fans. Every fan that said they are going to quit the team this year will be back with 20 of their friends if this is a young winning team.

 

So there is your answer. Change your expectations on what it is. Think about the Rays PR dept. and how they have pandered to the fans over the years...they care zero percent about it and concentrate on finding a way to win and turn a profit.

[Terminator]

They should probably run this team a little less like the Rays tbh. There's no reason for the only team in Canada to operate like the cheapest franchise in sports but here we are. I don't think they are as smart as the Rays anyway.

 

On top of that, I'm not sure how it's even helping the big picture. We went into the year with loads of fringey big league pieces and none of them have panned out. Plugging a few holes this year would have lead to less to do next offseason. Instead we need add something like 8 viable big league pieces before we are somewhat decent. So not only does the full teardown this year make for some pretty unwatchable baseball, it's also going to make it hard for us to be any good next year too.

[Olerud363]

Look at the pretty picture ... isn't it beautiful. Now back away from the keyboard and enjoy your Sunday afternoon

 

I though of this picture when I checked bbref today... Jays team slugging percentage, .363 is exactly at Olerud's 1993 average, and their on base percentage (.284) is exactly at his 1992 batting average.

[BTS]

They should probably run this team a little less like the Rays tbh. There's no reason for the only team in Canada to operate like the cheapest franchise in sports but here we are. I don't think they are as smart as the Rays anyway.

 

On top of that, I'm not sure how it's even helping the big picture. We went into the year with loads of fringey big league pieces and none of them have panned out. Plugging a few holes this year would have lead to less to do next offseason. Instead we need add something like 8 viable big league pieces before we are somewhat decent. So not only does the full teardown this year make for some pretty unwatchable baseball, it's also going to make it hard for us to be any good next year too.

 

Every position player except Sogard, Galvis, and Smoak have 0.2 fWAR or less. It's May 21st, and the list of players who have a) played well, and actually matter in terms of future value to this team reads:

 

1. Stroman

2. Giles

3. Thornton

 

That's it. And we certainly didn't need to field a 95+ loss team to learn that those three arms were good. Stroman and Giles would have made any team in baseball, and Thornton would have had a full season of starts available to him even if he were the 6th or 7th starter in March. So far punting 2019 to 'let the kids play' has been a complete debacle that has accomplished nothing outside of saving Rogers $$$. I still think this FO is going to build something good here, but they need to start finding useful MLB players ASAP, because this team is completely unacceptable for a market this big.

[Krylian]

Every position player except Sogard, Galvis, and Smoak have 0.2 fWAR or less. It's May 21st, and the list of players who have a) played well, and actually matter in terms of future value to this team reads:

 

1. Stroman

2. Giles

3. Thornton

 

That's it. And we certainly didn't need to field a 95+ loss team to learn that those three arms were good. Stroman and Giles would have made any team in baseball, and Thornton would have had a full season of starts available to him even if he were the 6th or 7th starter in March. So far punting 2019 to 'let the kids play' has been a complete debacle that has accomplished nothing outside of saving Rogers $$$. I still think this FO is going to build something good here, but they need to start finding useful MLB players ASAP, because this team is completely unacceptable for a market this big.

 

I agree that it's being run like a small market team. Who do you blame? Rogers? Shapiro? Both? Neither?

[BTS]

I agree that it's being run like a small market team. Who do you blame? Rogers? Shapiro? Both? Neither?

 

Mostly Rogers and Atkins I would think. Rogers sets payroll, and Ross Atkins has to find good players under whatever parameters he's given.

 

Our total position player fWAR right now is (-0.5). Our bats have been sub-replacement level. I get that it's a rebuilding year, but the FO absolutely has to be better than that. We're only 1.3 fWAR better than the Marlins, who are being mocked by the entire baseball world for their offensive ineptitude.

[Terminator]

Every position player except Sogard, Galvis, and Smoak have 0.2 fWAR or less. It's May 21st, and the list of players who have a) played well, and actually matter in terms of future value to this team reads:

 

1. Stroman

2. Giles

3. Thornton

 

That's it. And we certainly didn't need to field a 95+ loss team to learn that those three arms were good. Stroman and Giles would have made any team in baseball, and Thornton would have had a full season of starts available to him even if he were the 6th or 7th starter in March. So far punting 2019 to 'let the kids play' has been a complete debacle that has accomplished nothing outside of saving Rogers $$$. I still think this FO is going to build something good here, but they need to start finding useful MLB players ASAP, because this team is completely unacceptable for a market this big.

 

Seems like they want to trade #1 and #2 as well. If that's the plan we are going to be bad for a long time.

 

It seems like they want to align our years of contention with Vlad's prime when in reality they are simply wasting the first 2-3 years of Vlad's career. We only control him for 7 years, they should try and contend for as much of that 7 years as possible.

[DigitalRock]

Every position player except Sogard, Galvis, and Smoak have 0.2 fWAR or less. It's May 21st, and the list of players who have a) played well, and actually matter in terms of future value to this team reads:

 

1. Stroman

2. Giles

3. Thornton

 

That's it. And we certainly didn't need to field a 95+ loss team to learn that those three arms were good. Stroman and Giles would have made any team in baseball, and Thornton would have had a full season of starts available to him even if he were the 6th or 7th starter in March. So far punting 2019 to 'let the kids play' has been a complete debacle that has accomplished nothing outside of saving Rogers $$$. I still think this FO is going to build something good here, but they need to start finding useful MLB players ASAP, because this team is completely unacceptable for a market this big.

 

I agree...how the Jays operate is puzzling and frustrating considering the market.

[Todd Van Anus]

So does Shatkins now realize that they made a mistake in hiring Montoyo? How long is his contract? Any chance he's fired this offseason?

[Todd Van Anus]

I wonder if Shatkins hired Montoyo because they knew he sucks and this will help with the tanking cause. Once we're ready o compete, Shatkins will hire a real manager.

[TheHurl]

They should probably run this team a little less like the Rays tbh. There's no reason for the only team in Canada to operate like the cheapest franchise in sports but here we are. I don't think they are as smart as the Rays anyway.

 

On top of that, I'm not sure how it's even helping the big picture. We went into the year with loads of fringey big league pieces and none of them have panned out. Plugging a few holes this year would have lead to less to do next offseason. Instead we need add something like 8 viable big league pieces before we are somewhat decent. So not only does the full teardown this year make for some pretty unwatchable baseball, it's also going to make it hard for us to be any good next year too.

 

That is the big question. Are the players they were looking at just not working out or are they seeking the wrong players? Even if they were seeking fringey big league pieces...most are playing below that.

 

I disagree that the Rays are not the model they should follow, I think it's the model they have to follow. 2017 Rays were full of cast-offs and Vets. Of the offensive players they dealt the only two players they got which are helping the current team are Brad Miller & Mallex Smith who they traded for Ji-Man Choi and Mike Zunino. They got Pham by trading minor leaguers, they got Meadows by trading a young pitcher which still had control. They got Diaz by trading a recently called up prospect, who had a spot on their roster, They got Garcia after he was not offered arbitration. Lowe, Adames and Kiermaier they developed.

 

Getting an Archer type trade won't be easy but it's time that we start thinking about packaging our prospects and minor league depth for closer to the majors depth. Essentially I am saying that this crop isn't working out (with the exception of Sogard) so time to re-shuffle again and use the only assets they have.

[Terminator]

Essentially I am saying that this crop isn't working out (with the exception of Sogard) so time to re-shuffle again and use the only assets they have.

 

That's a fair take. I do think keeping a Pillar, signing a better bullpen piece and another starting pitcher or something wouldn't have killed the long-term development of the franchise but let's just forget that and examine the players they did decide to role with. It's pretty damn remarkable at how badly they whiffed on all these guys. They all seem to be hit the ball hard types with plate discipline issues. Whatever Shatkins thought they could do to fix the plate discipline is failing miserably.

 

As for re-shuffling the deck, I'm not sure how many more times they are going to be able to do that. Sub-.500 finishes and trending down in the win column will only be tolerated for so long. The bottom has fallen out and the franchise is in the toilet. We have like 4 or 5 good big leaguers on the 25-man, it's going to take a while to turn that around and for the first time since Shatkins has gotten here I'm questioning if they'll see it through.

[Terminator]

Montoyo batting Jonathan Davis leadoff two days in a row.

[glory]

They should probably run this team a little less like the Rays tbh. There's no reason for the only team in Canada to operate like the cheapest franchise in sports but here we are. I don't think they are as smart as the Rays anyway.

 

On top of that, I'm not sure how it's even helping the big picture. We went into the year with loads of fringey big league pieces and none of them have panned out. Plugging a few holes this year would have lead to less to do next offseason. Instead we need add something like 8 viable big league pieces before we are somewhat decent. So not only does the full teardown this year make for some pretty unwatchable baseball, it's also going to make it hard for us to be any good next year too.

 

I think the most frustrating part of all of this is I don't even think they are trying (and failing) to build like the Rays. I don't think there is a distinguishable plan at all. It seems like they are waiting on their draft picks to come up the system while accumulating as much back end 40 man roster depth as possible while making the payroll as low as humanly possible. It's like taking the money saving aspect of the Astros rebuild and current Rays minus the top 5 picks (until 2020) or astute player development. if they are banking on their drafting alone to produce a WS winning lineup, how f'n long do we have to wait for that to materialize?

 

Atkins has swung and missed on almost every important young player acquisition he's made aside from Thornton so far. Even a good player like Grichuk was signed to an extension he probably didn't deserve and may not be able to live up to. We see players like Biggio dominate the upper minors, but can't get called up presumably for super 2 reasons, even though who bloody cares if there's an extra year of arb when you have no financial commitments beyond 2020 anyway?

 

Atkins is 100% going to trade Stroman and Giles. He better fit a f'n grand slam in the return for those two. THis is probably the least interested I have been in the Jays for a long time. The roster sucks, the front office hasn't established itself as one we can trust (Atkins), and even looking forward to the trade deadline is a bit of a letdown when we have two years of sample size that show Teoscar, McKinney, Drury, Wall, Paulino, Perez, Waguespack, etc.